Toney 'english fighters have no heart'

[Crease]

jamesmcconnell.

Here are the reaosns for my rankings

1. Chris Byrd

Byrd has been at the top of the game for the best part of 3 years, in his defences, he's beat Holyfield (gone to seed), narrowly beat McCline and smoked Williamson out of it...

2. Wladmir Klitchsko

Klitchsko beat Williamson, destroyed Castillo and overcame the hot prospect, Samuel Peter. He deserves his title shot.

3. John Ruiz

I'm conviced that Ruiz will make a comeback, I would fancy his chances against Rahman anyday, he already beat him once and he beat the resilient Golgota.

4. Calvin Brock

Brock has been nit-picking around the lower region of the heavyweight division, and after a crushing KO of Zuri Lawrence, will no longer be ignored and he's already starting to make ripples in heavyweight circles.

5. Sinan Samil Sam

Sam has been around for a long while and has been ignored after bad losses to Krasniqi and Maskaev. But, a few years ago he foguht very well aganist Danny Williams, and if he stops being lazy and is given the chance, I think he could become a world champion.


Why, jamesmcdonell, who would you have?

Nikolay Valuev is (a slightly balder) king kong and hardly a skilled boxer.

James Toney is a good fighter, I'll give him that, but hardly the best around today, plus his credability has been knocked because of ther Ruiz fight.

Hasim Rahman is the current WBC champ, but he's hardly taking on the big fights is he? (He fought Barrett when Brock, Peters and Wlad Klitchsko was in the running for a title shot).

Samuel Peter is a very hot prospect and I fancy him to be a future world champion, but he suffered a bad loss to Wlad Klitschko and struggled agiainst Robert Hawkins, (hardly a world-class competitor).

Oleg Maskaev doesn't know were he's going after beating Sam, I think he chooses his fights very carefully, I can't see him as a world champ.

Serguei Lyakhovich, alright he is the man who beat Lamon Bewster to become WBA champ and he did beat Guinn, but 1 good fight doesn't put you in the top 5.

Lamon Brewster lost his title after being a t the top for soo long, he's still a good fighter and I think he'll fight Maskaev next (I fancy him to win that too) BUT his race could be run...

Monte Barrett has had his chance against Rahman, he failed!!!

DaVarryl Williamson recently lost to Chris Byrd, he too had his chance.

Paolo Vidoz is making a late comeback with a close victory over Hoffman and a good win agianst Michael Sprott. But at 35, is he too old?

Dominick Guinn recently deafeated Audley Harrison but with losses to Toney and Barrett, will he be given another chance to challenege at the top, I don't think so.

Luan Krasniqi drew with Hoffman for the European title and KO'd Whitaker but lost in his chance against Brewster, I think he might get back up ther ein the rankings.

Timo Hoffmann recently lost to Vidoz and isn't showing any ambition to get back up there with the big boys.

Danny Williams has made a remarkable comeback since losing to Vitali Klitchsko, he's won two very close descisions aginst Harrison and Skelton but he's got another fight with Skelton on the way to decide matters between them.

Matt Skelton recently smoked Kalachan and he's fighting Williams next..



As for Vitlai Klitchsko, he was a great fighter, especially when you compare him to this bunch of yoo-ha's. The only ones there who I can see giving him toruble would be Byrd, Ruiz and Brewster.

[yiddo14]

You people make me laugh. Patriotism at its best, yet you criticise the same fighters at the drop of a hat.

Toney is wrong, our fighters have heart. What most of them lack however is intelligence and skill.

It's prevalent in most of the sport in this country in fact.

lol.in some respects i suppose u r right!

some have too much heart

[nickd]

I'm not going to argue with anyones ranking of the current heavyweights as in all honesty I dont give a flying fook, but I have to say Vitali Klitschko has done nothing to be considered a great fighter. A world champion who won a vacant title against an overweight 38 year old - with 1 defence against 10 ton Danny Williams should be considered great? Haha come on.

[Autobarn]

Vitali could've handled all this lot, but he was too obsessed with an old Lewis who beat him, he was injury prone, not eager to really make a statement in the division as he had too many wankstains (hbo, ring) singing his praises. when merchant interview vitali post williams, the hushed tones and sense of awe that larry was talking with (as if he was taling to the spirit of Joe Louis) Made Me Want To Vomit

thewre's also rumours that vitali was on the roids, hence his constant deferral of the rahman fight (and eventual scrapping of it) as if there was maybe a test he didn't want to take. (remember the rapid weight loss when he was at that wbc convention)

vitali basically fought a load of fat lazy cants (Colonal Sanders, Kipling Williams, Whale Johnson) which was really a waste, as vs Williams he showed he had some pretty sharp tools

[lvlarc]

Southpaw Stylist, I'M IRISH.

I'm an Irish Nationalist, so your "patrism at its best" is BALLS!

Don't get me wrong, I don't consider Lennox Lewis to be a legne dof the ring, however Lewis, Holyfield and V Klitchsko were all great fighters.

Rahman certinly isn't. The best heavyweights out there in my opionion are;

1. Chris Byrd
2. Vladimir Klitchsko
3. John Ruiz
4. Calvin Brock
5. Sinan Samil Sam

Do you actually watch any boxing at all? Wlad is 2nd best, what after getting nuked by Sanders and Brewster, and fighting like a scared rabbit against Sam Peter? Samil Sam! Based on what?

How was Vitali Klitchsko a GREAT fighter? Who did he beat to become a great fighter?

Vitali shouldn't even be mentioned in the same breath as Holyfield and Lewis.

Where would you rate Wlad then? I know hes mentally shot but after he beats Byrd it will be hard not to have him in top 3.

[Autobarn]

Vitali could've handled all this lot, but he was too obsessed with an old Lewis who beat him, he was injury prone, not eager to really make a statement in the division as he had too many wankstains (hbo, ring) singing his praises. when merchant interview vitali post williams, the hushed tones and sense of awe that larry was talking with (as if he was taling to the spirit of Joe Louis) Made Me Want To Vomit

thewre's also rumours that vitali was on the roids, hence his constant deferral of the rahman fight (and eventual scrapping of it) as if there was maybe a test he didn't want to take. (remember the rapid weight loss when he was at that wbc convention)

vitali basically fought a load of fat lazy cants (Colonal Sanders, Kipling Williams, Whale Johnson) which was really a waste, as vs Williams he showed he had some pretty sharp tools

Fook me Maussa you are are vicious! Harder to please than my future mother-in-law. Seriously though I hear think I have the McGroom fight and no fight at the higher weights was anyone even close. He looked the business when crushing the rated Jason Robinson as well.

One sign of 'roids is constant ankle ligament and muscle tears innit? VK was an average guy with white skin who gave Larry Merchant the horn, only after his younger brother had given Larry the come on as well Merchant, "Wlad is the best in the world" after Lewis had ruined Tyson. Insane, you popmpus old fool.

i think i saw highlights of the mcgroom fight on kotv. it could be the one where toney has hair. from what i read of it in ring and the clips i saw, it seemed as though toney did bollocks until the last two rds...toney is great when an opponent comes to him, like a shot adolpho washington and a fit as a fiddle, nasty jirov...yes he was good vs robinson but then again that highlights that he doesn't really have any legs & hates moving forward - he was very clever to con robinson into walking onto his left hook (hit him with the right over and over, make him expect the right and clock him w the left)

the robinson fight was close, as toney didn't really go after him, he old manned him & did what he had to. but on that performance, he should be glad he never faced my fave cruiserweight ever, Juan Carlos Gomez. Gomez had size, speed, movement and was a leftie...also, i wonder why he never fought Byrd post Jirov: unlike Robinson, Byrd and (peak, 190) Gomez woud not havebeee been conned into Toney's trickery

when i came on the forums, and before i started writing, i was one of the biggest pro toney ppl on the boards (a different one, under a different name). toney got me interested in boxing again when the guys i was interested in, MAB and Hopkins, weren't fighting anyone (i'm talking of those guys straight after the Hamed and Tito bouts). but the errors he makes like not training, poss juicing up (all those muscles, the injuries), and the dumb crap that spills from his mouth like bile, well it makes ppl be very critical.

toney's done some superb things in boxing, that's what makes his career so frustrating


i mean the guy is lazy. even in his prime he was trying to be 'old school', which is a bit daft when you're like 25 and should be energetic

[states]

Vitali could've handled all this lot, but he was too obsessed with an old Lewis who beat him, he was injury prone, not eager to really make a statement in the division as he had too many wankstains (hbo, ring) singing his praises. when merchant interview vitali post williams, the hushed tones and sense of awe that larry was talking with (as if he was taling to the spirit of Joe Louis) Made Me Want To Vomit

thewre's also rumours that vitali was on the roids, hence his constant deferral of the rahman fight (and eventual scrapping of it) as if there was maybe a test he didn't want to take. (remember the rapid weight loss when he was at that wbc convention)

vitali basically fought a load of fat lazy cants (Colonal Sanders, Kipling Williams, Whale Johnson) which was really a waste, as vs Williams he showed he had some pretty sharp tools

Vitali should have been the one to clear up this mess. The fact that he didn't counts against him. As does the fact that he never beat anyone approaching elite.

How the hell can anyone consider him 'great'? If that's your view Crease, fair enough. I can't see how you justify it thuogh. One of the luckiest Heavyweights ever. He got so much milage out of a deserved defeat. I really wish that fight had been allowed to go on, just so Lewis could win it legit.

Christ, how bad are things when we're pining for Vitali Klitschko?

[Max Molyneux]

That uppercut would of put him out if Vitali wasn't able to hold on after.

Another one would of done it.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Yep, there's two types of movement. The kind that is useful effective movement, and the kind which looks great, but achieves little.

I remember Andrew Six Heads Lewis, everyone was harping on about how great he was defensively, before Margarito decapitated him with one shot. It's all well and good whizzing around the ring at the speed of light, but someone with good timing will just take a single step, catch you when your momentum is already shifted and punch your lights out.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Oh is he on strictly come dancing?

[jamesmcdonnell]

I think come dancing might involve to much physical contact for our Audley, he'd probably insist they dance at opposite ends of the dancefloor.

Don't hold on Terrence, what you're doing is a bit like swallowing your own vomit because you don't want to waste the money you spent on dinner.

[Autobarn]

Fook me Maussa you are are vicious! Harder to please than my future mother-in-law. Seriously though I hear think I have the McGroom fight and no fight at the higher weights was anyone even close. He looked the business when crushing the rated Jason Robinson as well.

One sign of 'roids is constant ankle ligament and muscle tears innit? VK was an average guy with white skin who gave Larry Merchant the horn, only after his younger brother had given Larry the come on as well Merchant, "Wlad is the best in the world" after Lewis had ruined Tyson. Insane, you popmpus old fool.

i think i saw highlights of the mcgroom fight on kotv. it could be the one where toney has hair. from what i read of it in ring and the clips i saw, it seemed as though toney did bollocks until the last two rds...toney is great when an opponent comes to him, like a shot adolpho washington and a fit as a fiddle, nasty jirov...yes he was good vs robinson but then again that highlights that he doesn't really have any legs & hates moving forward - he was very clever to con robinson into walking onto his left hook (hit him with the right over and over, make him expect the right and clock him w the left)

the robinson fight was close, as toney didn't really go after him, he old manned him & did what he had to. but on that performance, he should be glad he never faced my fave cruiserweight ever, Juan Carlos Gomez. Gomez had size, speed, movement and was a leftie...also, i wonder why he never fought Byrd post Jirov: unlike Robinson, Byrd and (peak, 190) Gomez woud not havebeee been conned into Toney's trickery

when i came on the forums, and before i started writing, i was one of the biggest pro toney ppl on the boards (a different one, under a different name). toney got me interested in boxing again when the guys i was interested in, MAB and Hopkins, weren't fighting anyone (i'm talking of those guys straight after the Hamed and Tito bouts). but the errors he makes like not training, poss juicing up (all those muscles, the injuries), and the dumb crap that spills from his mouth like bile, well it makes ppl be very critical.

toney's done some superb things in boxing, that's what makes his career so frustrating


i mean the guy is lazy. even in his prime he was trying to be 'old school', which is a bit daft when you're like 25 and should be energetic

There were a few where he had those natty dreads type hair bits. From what I remember of the fight James fought his usual fight and deserved to win. James is great when a guy comes forward you admit that then try to make out that the Robinson win was a case of Jason losing rather than James winning. James may not be a great mover but then again Jason was a highly rated Cruiser and had great movement, or so it seemed.

Jason would take 5-6 steps and move fluidly then when he settled Toney, the poor mover, was right on top of him after taking a few shuffle steps. That suggests that Toney is the underrated mover and Jason could not move that well, you can have lovely leg work and all that but if a guy knows his ring mechanics he can cut you off and that should be acknowledged. James out-manouevred Robinson in there; its like when people say Foreman could not move when he did in fact move well when he was being schooled by Saddler and Moore. Flash is great but if a guy is on top of you in only a few steps then he is the better mover.

It was not a close fight in any respect, Jason moved and flurried but Toney was constantly on top of him and KO'd him classically. It is not being conned but a case of one guy having good legs but the other guy knowing his way around the ring, Toney proved, as versus Nunn that he can seek and destroy a supposedly better southpaw mover.

As for the juice I genuinely feel that James was under his doctor and when offered the Ruiz fight at five weeks he took it and took the risk. Anabolic steroids of the type he took are used to repair damaged muscles and in order to get the most from 'roids you need to put in the graft in the gym as well otherwise you just look a mess and they are less effective. 'Roids are supplement and not a cause of fitness or strength. If I took 'roids and sat on my backside and didn't train would I be able to beat Joe Calzaghe? Of course not. VK was the biggest juicer in boxing and had to train hard to supplement. Toney took medication and failed a test, if he was off the 'roids he have lost to Guinn IMO or faded in much the way other boxer's have since it became harder to hit the juice.

Toney in his prime, I feel, was not lazy but he was dead at the weight and as for his old-school obsession Bill Miller was largely responsible for those moves and had James fighting with a shoulder rolling style and with lots of feints. When it works it is great, when it does not work it looks slothful. I feel it would work versus Byrd who seems to be defending a lot of the ropes post-Holyfield, if Golota can seek and destroy Byrd then Toney can and then some.

Toney has very underrated footwork, maybe he needs to tassel his boots to give it some oomph!

hold your horses,

I know toney was winning (he did give away maybe 3 rds) and his old timer abilities took him to the ko win. i know that. robinson was a decent fighter who'd given o'neil bell a very close fight and would lose by ko to ezra sellers. being a southpaw that mad ehim a good workout type of fighter...

however, toney was lazy and didn't put a lot of work in, he tricked robinson into walking onto hard single punches. trickery doesn't work on everyone, and toney's lack of consistent work would have made it very hard for him if he were to have defended his title (that he'd take from Jirov next fight) vs Byrd.

wasn't toney near the top of the WBC's rankings whilst JC Gomez was champ? i know he never talked much of juan carlos gomez, who was an intelligent powerful southpaw who would have spelled doom for him at cruiser. not a knock on toney, gomez just had the wrong style for him...but it's not like toney can beat just anyone


as for the roids question, well no one deliberately takes roids do they, it's always these nasty backstreet doctors sneaking stuff in the medication of millionaire sportsmen! toney tested positive, worked with a mr universe (zipper sable), bulked up, suffered injuries known to be steroid related; you don't need to call in Columbo


with regard to movement, yes toney's shoulder/waist movement is very good, & has served him well vs top guys like jirov, pc williams, barkley (his greatest wins) - but they were all of the same style (at least when they fought toney). on the other hand there are other styles that are nightmares for him...that he only used upper body movement didn't serve him well vs rahman: every time toney bent to his right, rahman chopped away at that left kidney! if toney would have used his feet, to zip in and out of range (like vs holyfield) and show angles, he might have had the energy to win that last rd and win his 4th world title

[jamesmcdonnell]

Maussa, Toney did not sucker Jason in, he worked his style and stepped in to KO the guy. Jason was a good southpaw whose movements were not economical enough. I'm not sure what you mean about him defending the title he took of Jirov versus Byrd, Toney was going to fight Hopkins but Hopkins played hard to get. Toney never talked Gomez up but then I never heard Gomez talking Toney up, plus Toney had to wait a long time for Jirov to get the injuries out the way and fight him, by that time Toney was best suited to moving up.

Toney worked with that weights guy pre-booker and looked ripped then got injured, I know that the torn bicep (like ankle ligament damage) is a by product of steroid use but so too is treatment by anabolic steroids for this injury. Toney did his injury versus Booker in Dec? and fought Ruiz in March after being injured for months so it allpoints to medical use, Toney was not ripped for Ruiz as he was for Booker.

As for his greatest wins you omit Nunn, a fleet-footed southpaw of the type you think would beat James, only he did not and Toney did not get lucky. He broke Nunn down and took him out. Toney was slipping a lot of Nunn shots and working the body plus he closed him down, then he took him out. Conceivably if he can do it to one southpaw he can do it to another, as he did with Robinson and Reggie Johnson (a result Toney deserved IMO).

I had him slightly ahead versus Rahman. Hasim threw 300 more shots and only landed 12 more. He was wasteful and when the big shots went in they went in from Toney.

Toney went mad on the weights for the booker fight, he looked ripped, but he was piling on too much muscle tissue for his frame, and it's no wonder he ended tearing a bicep.

[Autobarn]

Maussa, Toney did not sucker Jason in, he worked his style and stepped in to KO the guy. Jason was a good southpaw whose movements were not economical enough. I'm not sure what you mean about him defending the title he took of Jirov versus Byrd, Toney was going to fight Hopkins but Hopkins played hard to get. Toney never talked Gomez up but then I never heard Gomez talking Toney up, plus Toney had to wait a long time for Jirov to get the injuries out the way and fight him, by that time Toney was best suited to moving up.

Toney worked with that weights guy pre-booker and looked ripped then got injured, I know that the torn bicep (like ankle ligament damage) is a by product of steroid use but so too is treatment by anabolic steroids for this injury. Toney did his injury versus Booker in Dec? and fought Ruiz in March after being injured for months so it allpoints to medical use, Toney was not ripped for Ruiz as he was for Booker.

As for his greatest wins you omit Nunn, a fleet-footed southpaw of the type you think would beat James, only he did not and Toney did not get lucky. He broke Nunn down and took him out. Toney was slipping a lot of Nunn shots and working the body plus he closed him down, then he took him out. Conceivably if he can do it to one southpaw he can do it to another, as he did with Robinson and Reggie Johnson (a result Toney deserved IMO).

I had him slightly ahead versus Rahman. Hasim threw 300 more shots and only landed 12 more. He was wasteful and when the big shots went in they went in from Toney.

he was old manning Robinson, sneaking in power shots when Robinson was making mistakes. waiting till he overextended his left hand, turn at the waist and fore over a right. that was the kind of stuff he was doing. he didn't box consistently - even though he had a good enough game plan. if you forget the Ko, the knockdown and the big effort to begin rd 6, Toney didn't throw many punches, and predominantly threw one right hand at a time. he can't really manage high levels of activity in those kind of fights vs slicker foes he like to move away.

i omitted nunn not out of some diabolical effort to discredit the guy but cos i forgot. yes toney broke him down and i'm one of the few ppl who felt that toney was winning and breaking him down from rds 7 onward

no way the fat toney would have been able to do what he did to Nunn (bust him up) and Reggie (make it close, at least), to Byrd or Gomez.

Toney Was one of Gomez' top contenders at one point.

and when toney beat Jirov, the plan was the match him vs BYRD on HBO's Boxing After Dark - either at cruiser or heavy for one of their IBF titles. i was well looking forward to that

that was why toney and byrd had that row. toney made it up that he beat the fu_ck out of byrd in a detroit sparring session - i.e. i beat you be4, don't need to again. byrd said he was a liar, let's get it on etc. toney then said that infamous "I'll break your wife's jaw" comment

aroud that time toney was looking for an opponent and hopkins wanted to leap up in weight, jones-ruiz style. they berated each other thru boxingtalk, but hopkins pulled out, as he didn't like the cut king would take from the $3m

[jamesmcdonnell]

...and the fact that Toney would have absolutely fornicating murdered him. Toney would have made mincemeat of Hopkins. Toney can take shots from a heavyweight, he would have walked right through Hopkins and roughed him up badly, and Hopkins knew it.

[Southpaw Stylist]

...and the fact that Toney would have absolutely fornicating murdered him. Toney would have made mincemeat of Hopkins. Toney can take shots from a heavyweight, he would have walked right through Hopkins and roughed him up badly, and Hopkins knew it.

[jamesmcdonnell]

...and the fact that Toney would have absolutely fornicating murdered him. Toney would have made mincemeat of Hopkins. Toney can take shots from a heavyweight, he would have walked right through Hopkins and roughed him up badly, and Hopkins knew it.

Yes?

[Autobarn]

i don't necessarily say that toney beat reggie. i said it was pretty close. the knockdown by johnson should have put it his way really.

you make toney sound like jose luis castillo in there, with robinson! when i say old manning him i just mean conning the younger guy into making errors, make 'em do things you want 'em to do. i.e. crafty little tricks, minimal work - the best of which was throwing predominantly rights, so that robinson forgot toney's left - which put him out in chilling fashion.

the cruiser toney couldn't move forward with the kind of concerted effort/sustained attack that he did at stages in the nunn and johnson fights. hence why i think he wouldn't have done so well vs Byrd and Gomez.

check out the eastsideboxing old articles by frank lotierzo. he did some good work on this subject (toney, robinson, movement), he did a couple of articles that are worth checking out


rahman didn't look great vs toney. but what did toney look like? he almost fell over every time rahman did anything to him whilst he was throwing the right hand. shades of the griffin 2 fight. rahman belted that left kidney, kept his forearm inside toney's right - both illegal moves but in all honesty he made JT look very predictable. thos emoves succeeded in grinding toney down a bit AND taking his trusty old right hand away (at times)

you're right, toney won't win a heavyweight title.

[Southpaw Stylist]

...and the fact that Toney would have absolutely fornicating murdered him. Toney would have made mincemeat of Hopkins. Toney can take shots from a heavyweight, he would have walked right through Hopkins and roughed him up badly, and Hopkins knew it.

Yes?

I was quoting you as if to mirror what you said.

[stujones]

...and the fact that Toney would have absolutely fornicating murdered him. Toney would have made mincemeat of Hopkins. Toney can take shots from a heavyweight, he would have walked right through Hopkins and roughed him up badly, and Hopkins knew it.

Mmmm.... I think it would have been intriguing. Hopkins has got a great chin aswell. I wonder if Toney's punches would have had an effect. Toney's workrate wasn't great (even when lighter) and he did like fighters to come to him.

When this fight was scheduled (then cancelled) at CRUISERWEIGHT, I was posting on another forum and Kurt Ermhoff was convinced Hopkins "would find a way" and "old school the old school fighter" and win a tight but clear decision. I was confident that Toney would have won at that stage, but Kurt is a knowledgable fight fan who very rarely makes bad calls. He actually got me to rethink my prediction.

[Syntax Error]

Toney likes the sound of his own voice.

[Autobarn]

i don't necessarily say that toney beat reggie. i said it was pretty close. the knockdown by johnson should have put it his way really.

you make toney sound like jose luis castillo in there, with robinson! when i say old manning him i just mean conning the younger guy into making errors, make 'em do things you want 'em to do. i.e. crafty little tricks, minimal work - the best of which was throwing predominantly rights, so that robinson forgot toney's left - which put him out in chilling fashion.

the cruiser toney couldn't move forward with the kind of concerted effort/sustained attack that he did at stages in the nunn and johnson fights. hence why i think he wouldn't have done so well vs Byrd and Gomez.

check out the eastsideboxing old articles by frank lotierzo. he did some good work on this subject (toney, robinson, movement), he did a couple of articles that are worth checking out


rahman didn't look great vs toney. but what did toney look like? he almost fell over every time rahman did anything to him whilst he was throwing the right hand. shades of the griffin 2 fight. rahman belted that left kidney, kept his forearm inside toney's right - both illegal moves but in all honesty he made JT look very predictable. thos emoves succeeded in grinding toney down a bit AND taking his trusty old right hand away (at times)

you're right, toney won't win a heavyweight title.

I had Toney a clear winner versus Reggie, the knock-down came in the first round man so are you trying to say that it was the fight clincher? James won more points over the fight's course.

As for Toney "old-manning" Robinson, well I've seen younger fighters tricking older fighters into falling for a sucker punch (see at the end for an example). It seems what you are trying to say is that Toney cut the ring down, made Robinson work and then countered him; that is not old-manning anyone, it is called out boxing them and KO-ing them! Or ring generalmanship as it was once known. Basically you've gone from saying the Toney win over Robinson stemmed from Jason being conned to Toney working the ring better, which is what I said all along. I'm sure Mr. Lotierzo did some great work on the fight but I have seen it 5-6 times with my own eyes and don't need an outside view to tell me that Toney cut the ring down and Ko'd the southpaw mover just as did with Nunn and he also beat Johnson, so how can you justify Toney as having problems with these types of guys? Robinson was a very good example of a southpaw, cruiser mover and Toney KO'd him. end of story as far as I can see and not emblematic of Toney having problems with this type of guy.

As for Toney's right hand being gone versus Rahman, when he was in range and had the energy to throw it he landed it, if his right hand was gone why didn't Rahman make it easier? You yourself say he used illegal tactics to scrape a draw with an unfit blown-up middle, that is hardly making himself the law over Toney is it? You seem to have bene watching Rahman and missing the fact that the smaller Toney looked the better puncher and lost the win on the final round when he was exhausted. For most of the fight when Toney set his right hand he landed it with greater effect.

It seems you are trying to play down Toney yet you have nothing to base it on, a supposedly "old-manning" (a phrase that is a faddish one and basically means a "good technical boxing") win over a speedy, lateral movement blessed southpaw (terms which no longer apply to Chris Byrd) and your argument that Toney would have problems with a good soupthpaw is so far wide of the facts it is crazy.

One last thing about "old-manning" someone, Toney did the same to Nunn as he did to Robinson to Nunn, who was what 5-6 years older and more experienced, did Toney "old-man" the older/experienced man! More experienced man too or did he just show better ring generalmanship?!

stop getting your knickers in a twist, over "old manning". you're like some university student tripping over himself to "define terms". all i'm talking about is using old pro tricks, and if you can't understand what i've been talking about that's your problem. i seem to remember you thinking calzaghe properly challenged james toney, so i don't hold it against you



toney pressured nunn over the second half. he did some good countering, too. he had to put a heck of a lot of work in and was exhausted. not just from making 160. vs robinson, yes he was clever/did what he needed, but was lazy at times & at 190lbs has to have his opponent come at him. there was times when jt was languishing on the end of robinson's punches, waiting as he was on the outside as if to say 'please come here and fight my fight'

props to toney for being able to lull a decent, bigger, more mobile foe in, and lowering the boom. it's clever stuff and i appreicate it. that's not to say he could do that vs intelligent, fast, big men like JCG and CB.

robinson was an inexperienced fighter without any big win. robinson isn't half the fighter that chris byrd and jc gomez were. at times toney, swaying his shoulders, trying to draw robinson in, really got tagged awkwardly. the way he turns his body weight to the right, his body would have been battered by Juan Carlos Gomez, a cute southpaw with a great body attack

if you think toney doesn't have trouble with slick southpaws, i'm sorry you're off your head. he had grave trouble vs johnson, had to go all out to beat nunn.

not many ppl think toney "clearly beat johnson". johnson had a 2 pt rd and if you're kind to toney & have the fight pretty close 2 pts should sway it to reggie...let's join the toney fan club and pretend he deserved to beat mccallum twice and tiberi as well, not to mention hail him as a "five times world champion" WBU super cruiserweight included


sure toney landed the better shots vs rahman. but he didn't do a lot of work & it's fitting that he didn't win. rahman wasn't great either. hasim did some decent inside work, but really should have done more jabbing, made the fight veteran use his legs. obviously there's a limit to rahman's intelligence, just as there's limitations to toney's conditioning!

[jamesmcdonnell]

...and the fact that Toney would have absolutely fornicating murdered him. Toney would have made mincemeat of Hopkins. Toney can take shots from a heavyweight, he would have walked right through Hopkins and roughed him up badly, and Hopkins knew it.

Mmmm.... I think it would have been intriguing. Hopkins has got a great chin aswell. I wonder if Toney's punches would have had an effect. Toney's workrate wasn't great (even when lighter) and he did like fighters to come to him.

When this fight was scheduled (then cancelled) at CRUISERWEIGHT, I was posting on another forum and Kurt Ermhoff was convinced Hopkins "would find a way" and "old school the old school fighter" and win a tight but clear decision. I was confident that Toney would have won at that stage, but Kurt is a knowledgable fight fan who very rarely makes bad calls. He actually got me to rethink my prediction.

I cannot believe anyone would think that Toney would beat Toney at any weight. Toney is a better fighter in just about every respect. At middleweight Toney was a monster, he was absolutely destroying people. He battered the living daylights out of Jirov at cruiserweight, he slapped Ruiz around the ring like a ten pin, and had Rahman grimacing. Good as Hopkins chin is, at cruiserweight he would have taken a thrashing from Toney. His punches would have bounced off Toney like marshmallows and he would have been badly hurt when Toney landed.

[lvlarc]

Southpaw Stylist, I'M IRISH.

I'm an Irish Nationalist, so your "patrism at its best" is BALLS!

Don't get me wrong, I don't consider Lennox Lewis to be a legne dof the ring, however Lewis, Holyfield and V Klitchsko were all great fighters.

Rahman certinly isn't. The best heavyweights out there in my opionion are;

1. Chris Byrd
2. Vladimir Klitchsko
3. John Ruiz
4. Calvin Brock
5. Sinan Samil Sam

Do you actually watch any boxing at all? Wlad is 2nd best, what after getting nuked by Sanders and Brewster, and fighting like a scared rabbit against Sam Peter? Samil Sam! Based on what?

How was Vitali Klitchsko a GREAT fighter? Who did he beat to become a great fighter?

Vitali shouldn't even be mentioned in the same breath as Holyfield and Lewis.

Where would you rate Wlad then? I know hes mentally shot but after he beats Byrd it will be hard not to have him in top 3.

What about now, Wlad make your top 3?

[Phenomenal-Nutrition]

...and the fact that Toney would have absolutely fornicating murdered him. Toney would have made mincemeat of Hopkins. Toney can take shots from a heavyweight, he would have walked right through Hopkins and roughed him up badly, and Hopkins knew it.

Mmmm.... I think it would have been intriguing. Hopkins has got a great chin aswell. I wonder if Toney's punches would have had an effect. Toney's workrate wasn't great (even when lighter) and he did like fighters to come to him.

When this fight was scheduled (then cancelled) at CRUISERWEIGHT, I was posting on another forum and Kurt Ermhoff was convinced Hopkins "would find a way" and "old school the old school fighter" and win a tight but clear decision. I was confident that Toney would have won at that stage, but Kurt is a knowledgable fight fan who very rarely makes bad calls. He actually got me to rethink my prediction.

I cannot believe anyone would think that Toney would beat Toney at any weight. Toney is a better fighter in just about every respect. At middleweight Toney was a monster, he was absolutely destroying people. He battered the living daylights out of Jirov at cruiserweight, he slapped Ruiz around the ring like a ten pin, and had Rahman grimacing. Good as Hopkins chin is, at cruiserweight he would have taken a thrashing from Toney. His punches would have bounced off Toney like marshmallows and he would have been badly hurt when Toney landed.

Toney did beat Toney in his last fight. I'd pick him over BHOPs though - just far better