BoxRec

MightyWarrior wrote:

BoxBuzz wrote:Leotis Martin pretty much disproved the granite chin theory. OR does a chin wither in time?

Hate to be the one who has to break the news to you...but YES IT DOES.

You think a peak Ray Leonard would've been knocked down by Hector Camacho for example??

Well is that Chin or is that lack of reflexes? And I don't mean to mince words here. The practical aspect of this is if you can be decked easier at an older age...which I would agree with, but it has more to do with your reflexes than you ability to "take" a punch. IMHO. Your just not able to "move with it" or "avoid" it as easy.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:

Bert Whitehurst did nothing of the sort. I've never seen anyone buckle a prime Liston's knees

right hand 1st round of rematch, check it out listons knees buckled


listons chin defintley was very good, but not granite

Marciano floored by Archie Moore.

Marciano floored by Joe Walcott.

Marciano's chin not granite.

Turns out your wrong Decagon, I just conducted an experiment and allowed my neighbor to hit me square flush and it didnt seem to bother me. Years ago my neighbor actually did knock me down with a sucker punch. Another Myth Busted.

Which brings up another topic.Does punching power decrease with age?

john2345 wrote:I think we should agree to disagree and leave it there! I must have been watching a different Liston....

These are all just opinions.

expug wrote:Which brings up another topic.Does punching power decrease with age?

No doubt it eventualy does, as you reaaaalllly slow down as the years go by - but they say it's the last thing a fighter loses: his punch.

John Mugabi - a good example of a fighter with a good chin who eventualy couldn't hold any type of shot as his career wound down - he can probably still hit hard even now. He drives a mini cab round London I hear, but you defintely wouldn't want to stiff him on the fair.

Vargas was/is a fighter who's ability to take a good shot seemed to leave him over night - he took the best Ike Quartey could dish out without batting an eye, but by the time Trinidad had finished with him, his punch resistance was defintely reduced.

Same with Quartey in fact.

john2345 wrote:

The Great John L wrote:

john2345 wrote: Cleveland Williams, Nino Valdes, Zora Folley, Eddie Machen, Mike de John, Wayne Bethea.....and so on. Who was left to fight in the Top 10 while he waited...and waited...for his title shot?

My point exactly. They may have been the best of the lot, but it’s not a very distinguished list. As I said, Liston was a very good fighter, but many on this forum are putting him in the top 10 HWs of all time, and I just don’t see it. And yes, I have seen many of his pre-Patterson fights, and yes he looked quite good, but his dreadful foot speed and average (at best) hand speed tell me that he would struggle with just about any quick boxer with a decent chin. Patterson was very fast, but was anything but a slick mover, and was pretty east to hit. And Liston’s punches moved like a glacier in the Patterson fights. Jimmy Young would have made him look like an amateur.

I think we should agree to disagree and leave it there! I must have been watching a different Liston....

J

Jimmy Young is a guy who would give Liston some trouble. I agree.
The closest guy to him, Liston met primetime, I believe was Machen.
Liston was a much better boxer than Foreman, and would have been harder to hit. That 84" reach & poleax left might perhaps give Mr. Young pause for concern. Their was only one Ali. Machen fought to survive against Liston, hoping to land the punch that could win it. Young would do the same. Jimmy couldn't break an egg. Whereas Machen could hurt Liston, Young couldn't.
Could Young stay away from Liston for a points win?
I suppose it could happen. He did beat Foreman. Prime on Prime, I pick Sonny, though Jimmy would beat the Liston Leotis Martin beat.
Sonny was a first rate finisher. The first time he hurt Young. "Goodnight nurse." I believe Sonny would also be capable of a points win too. Against Sonny, Young would be so consumed about not getting hit, he wouldn't be able to go on the offensive enough to win. Floyd didn't punch back in fear of exposing himself to Sonnys arsenal. That's what would happen. Sonny was also a better mover than given credit for. In order for Young to win he would have to fight the perfect fight.

As Ali once said. Sonny can lick all them cats.

I bring to you a Music connection for their first fight.

Now....this may not be interesting to many, HOWEVER....I can attest that it is factual. I just wanted to bring something well documented and credible to a Liston thread. I know some may be growing sentimental about having some verifiable FACTS appear in a Liston thread.

So boring?....possibly, only peripherally related to boxing? Ok yes, BUT it is the TRUTH! lol


The actual date of conception for the Bonzo Doo Dah Dog Band is known: It is the 25the of September 1962. It was on that day that Vivian Stanshall (tuba, but later lead vocals along with other wind instruments) and fellow art student Rodney Slater (saxophone) bonded over a transatlantic broadcast of the first boxing match between Floyd Patterson and Sonny Liston.

And thus the Bonzo Doo Dah Dog Band was born.

100% certified fact. No opinion, or interpretation. Just real.

I can imagine Il Duce singing along to "I'm the urban spaceman"

Especially the last bit.

I'm the urban spaceman, baby; here comes the twist--
I'm full of sh*t!




Apologies to the bonzos.

MightyWarrior wrote:

BoxBuzz wrote:Leotis Martin pretty much disproved the granite chin theory. OR does a chin wither in time?

Hate to be the one who has to break the news to you...but YES IT DOES.

You think a peak Ray Leonard would've been knocked down by Hector Camacho for example??

Not to derail the thread, but here's my quick .2 on this - YES absolutely that shot would have decked Leonard at his peak. That was one hell of a shot, and even though Camacho wasn't known as a devastating puncher, he got everything into it - sounded like a damn cannon going off!

OK, quick edit - I just watched that knockdown again and it was 2 punches, and while not quite as hard as I remembered, I still think Leonard would've gone down.

lol....Ok...not Liston related, but the bigger question on the Camacho Leonard punch is "would Ray have been there to receive it? Not a chin issue, but an evasion issue. He was not as responsive to getting out of the way of incoming by then. So yep the punch might have done it, but would it have landed? that's the more relevant question there.


And as far as Leotis Martin was concerned, he had sparred so many Rounds with Liston, he knew him well, and had "insider information" Giving him the inside track on this opponent.

BoxBuzz wrote:lol....Ok...not Liston related, but the bigger question on the Camacho Leonard punch is "would Ray have been there to receive it? Not a chin issue, but an evasion issue. He was not as responsive to getting out of the way of incoming by then. So yep the punch might have done it, but would it have landed? that's the more relevant question there.

Leonard more than likely would've avoided those shots, or at least rolled and minimized the impact. I actually think it's more interesting to hypothesize on the ability to take the same flush shots at different points in a career, since it's a given that reflexes diminish with time - but that's a topic for a different thread.