No. Fact of the matter is he got clipped, he went down, Ali refused to go to a neutral corner, referee Joe Walcott eventually gets him away, Liston gets up, they commence fighting, and..... Nat Fleischer fucked everything up by calling Walcott to come to him and tells him that Liston had been on the canvas for over ten seconds, and at that point Walcott called the fight off when it was not Nat Fleischer's damn business.
I'd rather believe that Liston refused to go into the tank for Chuck Wepner and wound up dead because of that than the idea he took a dive against Ali.
Posted: 05 May 2018, 09:25
by Kalan
It has nothing to do with any of that.... Walcott acted like he didn't know the rules. When that happens the boxing commission is supposed to retroactively correct things and declare a No Contest. This has been done many times. Liston is immediately installed as mandatory challenger and Ali has to meet him next. Instead they compounded the errors.
The rule book was thrown out.... the COUNT IS SUSPENDED if the boxer scoring the knockdown fails to go to a neutral corner.... Liston should have won by DQ... Ali ignored the referee's orders to go to a neutral corner so Walcott was busy trying to get him there and Liston got no count... Liston cannot be counted out if the count is paused because of a rule violation by Ali.
It makes no difference when Liston gets up because the count is supposed to be suspended... The only choice the referee has is to DQ Ali if Liston did not get up and resume fighting and Ali kept refusing to go to a neutral corner.... Anybody who says anything different doesn't know what they're talking about. AGAIN the rule book was tossed out.
Go to 23:00 of the above video as HOF referee Ruby Goldstein explains the neutral corner rule to Howard Cosell.
Re: Did Sonny Liston take a dive against Ali?
Posted: 05 May 2018, 11:13
by oogiebe
I'm shocked how many said 'no' to the poll. (Hmmm...poetic)
Re: Did Sonny Liston take a dive against Ali?
Posted: 05 May 2018, 11:33
by Caractacus
also at some point Sonny Liston had raised his fist to Moe Dalitz after sometype of brief meeting at a hotel in Beverly Hills
Moe Dalitz was not only was the mayor of Las Vegas
but also the Don of the Cleveland Mob.
Dalitz reportly said "if you strike me -you are a dead man" (or words to that effect).
Re: Did Sonny Liston take a dive against Ali?
Posted: 05 May 2018, 13:09
by Kalan
Moe, Joe, or Floe... Makes no difference... The fight was still on according to the rules and Liston wanted to continue.
Kalan wrote: ↑05 May 2018, 13:09
Moe, Joe, or Floe... Makes no difference... The fight was still on according to the rules and Liston wanted to continue.
Seriously stated. You know what I like about you, Kalan, you are NOT wishy washy like some other posters. You really have conviction. Have to respect that, even in disagreement.
Re: Did Sonny Liston take a dive against Ali?
Posted: 05 May 2018, 15:57
by BoxBuzz
Hey Oogie......that's an interesting statement.........
Let's philosophize that......
A STOPPED CLOCK.....is not wishy washy. It clearly displays what time it is forever and always. And on occasion it's 1000% correct. And for a nano second (or two) each day it does a superlative job.
A clock that is working pretty well, might be slow on occasion, might be fast on occasion, but is never static......and is USUALLY in and around the correct time. But can't be counted on for stability....it's always wandering.
I guess we pick our poisons in the great cosmic search.....especially when time itself appears to be an illusion.
Re: Did Sonny Liston take a dive against Ali?
Posted: 05 May 2018, 16:02
by oogiebe
BoxBuzz wrote: ↑05 May 2018, 15:57
Hey Oogie......that's an interesting statement.........
Let's philosophize that......
A STOPPED CLOCK.....is not wishy washy. It clearly displays what time it is forever and always. And on occasion it's 1000% correct. And for a nano second (or two) each day it does a superlative job.
A clock that is working pretty well, might be slow on occasion, might be fast on occasion, but is never static......and is USUALLY in and around the correct time. But can't be counted on for stability....it's always wandering.
I guess we pick our poisons in the great cosmic search.....especially when time itself appears to be an illusion.
Buzz - I didn't say I agreed him or his approach, just that he's consistent. Kalan's opining never wavers from post to post. Doesn't change his mind. Love the broken clock bit though!
Re: Did Sonny Liston take a dive against Ali?
Posted: 05 May 2018, 16:02
by gilgamesh
As sure as Water is Wet and Fire is Hot. Yes! Absolutely no question.
BoxBuzz wrote: ↑05 May 2018, 15:57
Hey Oogie......that's an interesting statement.........
Let's philosophize that......
A STOPPED CLOCK.....is not wishy washy. It clearly displays what time it is forever and always. And on occasion it's 1000% correct. And for a nano second (or two) each day it does a superlative job.
A clock that is working pretty well, might be slow on occasion, might be fast on occasion, but is never static......and is USUALLY in and around the correct time. But can't be counted on for stability....it's always wandering.
I guess we pick our poisons in the great cosmic search.....especially when time itself appears to be an illusion.
Buzz - I didn't say I agreed him or his approach, just that he's consistent. Kalan's opining never wavers from post to post. Doesn't change his mind. Love the broken clock bit though!
I understood you....and just genuinely liked your statement.
There are several rumors as to what people think it might've been.
1. Liston believed there was going to be an assassination attempt on either him or Ali so he wanted to get the f*ck outta there before the bullets started flying.
2. He had a bet or an arrangement with a Mob Boss to lose by 1st round KO
3. He'd already fought Ali, and knew he couldn't beat him so rather than waste his time, and take a beating he decided to just get outta there while the getting was good and cash his check
So...there is some question as to Why? He took a dive, but there is no question THAT he took a dive. Not to anyone with eyes to see.
BoxBuzz wrote: ↑05 May 2018, 15:57
Hey Oogie......that's an interesting statement.........
Let's philosophize that......
A STOPPED CLOCK.....is not wishy washy. It clearly displays what time it is forever and always. And on occasion it's 1000% correct. And for a nano second (or two) each day it does a superlative job.
A clock that is working pretty well, might be slow on occasion, might be fast on occasion, but is never static......and is USUALLY in and around the correct time. But can't be counted on for stability....it's always wandering.
I guess we pick our poisons in the great cosmic search.....especially when time itself appears to be an illusion.
Buzz - I didn't say I agreed him or his approach, just that he's consistent. Kalan's opining never wavers from post to post. Doesn't change his mind. Love the broken clock bit though!
I understood you....and just genuinely liked your statement.
There are several rumors as to what people think it might've been.
1. Liston believed there was going to be an assassination attempt on either him or Ali so he wanted to get the f*ck outta there before the bullets started flying.
2. He had a bet or an arrangement with a Mob Boss to lose by 1st round KO
3. He'd already fought Ali, and knew he couldn't beat him so rather than waste his time, and take a beating he decided to just get outta there while the getting was good and cash his check
So...there is some question as to Why? He took a dive, but there is no question THAT he took a dive. Not to anyone with eyes to see.
And you don't HAVE ANY eyes to see... As Liston was on his feet boxing and NOT absorbing any follow up shots when the fight was ERRONEOUSLY called to a halt.... You never heard of the neutral corner rule and you don't care... Right???
Rumors are rumors and facts are facts.... Brainless individuals can't tell the difference.
Once the plan was blown up by JJW, Liston lost the script. Stop arguing this Kalan, the man fell down like a Home Alert actor, "help I've fallen and I CAN get up." He didn't know what to do!.
And you don't HAVE ANY eyes to see... As Liston was on his feet boxing and NOT absorbing any follow up shots when the fight was ERRONEOUSLY called to a halt.... You never heard of the neutral corner rule and you don't care... Right???
Rumors are rumors and facts are facts.... Brainless individuals can't tell the difference.
Check the video for what? Liston is clear headed, on his knee and ready to stand and then flops back over onto his back. The only way it could've been more obvious is if he were carrying on a conversation with somebody while he was doing it.
I know disagreeing with people is your specialty though.
In fact...I wonder if I suddenly flipped my stance on this and agreed with you if you'd flip your stance because I've never seen you have a friendly conversation on here with anybody. Even if they agree you bitch at them for not agreeing hard enough.
Enjoy living in fantasy land Kalan. I live in the real world.
Re: Did Sonny Liston take a dive against Ali?
Posted: 05 May 2018, 16:30
by Kalan
BoxBuzz wrote: ↑05 May 2018, 15:57
I guess we pick our poisons in the great cosmic search.....especially when time itself appears to be an illusion.
That's your problem BuzzBox... Nothing is real to you... If time didn't exist the physical world wouldn't... Nothing would work because everything works by a time and season... If Earth slowed down we'd fall into the the sun... If we speeded up we'd soon be an iceball... even the moon helps regulate Earth's spin and orbit.
So.....Liston goes in with a plan to take a dive.......But Ali goofs his plan by actually hitting him hard enough to discombobulate him (a little) which takes him off his focus and he temporarily reverts to instincts which has him attempting to get up after an unplanned genuine flash KD.......then coming to his senses he once again remembers the plan....and BACK DOWN HE GOES........however in his discombobulated state, he decides to get up once again....foiling his own blueprint for the night......BUT HOLD THE PHONE!!!! JWW saves the day with his incompetence and rules the fight is over, after listening to Nat, allowing Liston to get just what he wanted in the first place.
Re: Did Sonny Liston take a dive against Ali?
Posted: 05 May 2018, 16:52
by Kalan
gilgamesh wrote: ↑05 May 2018, 16:29
Check the video for what? Liston is clear headed, on his knee and ready to stand and then flops back over onto his back ..... I live in the real world.
Check the video for knowing how long Liston had to get up according to the rules.
You live in the world of speculation and fantasy .... Liston went down again because Ali was running at him from behind.. Liston knew he had 10 seconds to get up AFTER ALI ARRIVED AT A NEUTRAL CORNER...
I would like that fact to sink in for a minute... Liston had NO obligation to get up until Ali was in a neutral corner -- and Ali never went to a neutral corner.... so according to the rules Ali could get DQ'd... Liston didn't want to get swatted by an Ali who was running around the ring like a mad man... Had Liston wanted to tank the fight he had the option of staying on the canvas until Ali finally went to a neutral corner and waited to get counted out within the existing rules.
Ali was risking a DQ if there were a competent referee officiating... He looked like a man high on coke... To preserve the title for Ali the rule book was tossed out... Let me ask you this... How would you feel if Ali were DQ'd for his actions???
gilgamesh wrote: ↑05 May 2018, 16:29
Check the video for what? Liston is clear headed, on his knee and ready to stand and then flops back over onto his back ..... I live in the real world.
Check the video for knowing how long Liston had to get up according to the rules.
You live in the world of speculation and fantasy .... Liston went down again because Ali was running at him from behind.. Liston knew he had 10 seconds to get up AFTER ALI ARRIVED AT A NEUTRAL CORNER...
I would like that fact to sink in for a minute... Liston had NO obligation to get up until Ali was in a neutral corner -- and Ali never went to a neutral corner.... so according to the rules Ali could get DQ'd... Liston didn't want to get swatted by an Ali who was running around the ring like a mad man... Had Liston wanted to tank the fight he had the option of staying on the canvas until Ali finally went to a neutral corner and waited to get counted out within the existing rules.
Ali was risking a DQ if there were a competent referee officiating... He looked like a man high on coke... To preserve the title for Ali the rule book was tossed out... Let me ask you this... How would you feel if Ali were DQ'd for his actions???
You've convinced me.
Hell I don't know why they didn't rule a TKO for Liston now that I think about it more. Ali not going to a neutral corner clearly suggests he didn't want to continue. Referee should've stopped the fight and awarded Liston the TKO victory.
Wouldn't have made any sense, but why should that matter?
Re: Did Sonny Liston take a dive against Ali?
Posted: 05 May 2018, 16:56
by Kalan
BoxBuzz wrote: ↑05 May 2018, 16:34
It's all much clearer now...
Things will never be clear for you BuzzBox.... Nothing ever will be... Time is an illusion right??? OOOEEEEEEOOooooooowww
Re: Did Sonny Liston take a dive against Ali?
Posted: 05 May 2018, 17:02
by Kalan
gilgamesh wrote: ↑05 May 2018, 16:54
Wouldn't have made any sense, but why should that matter?
Because the rules matter to some people.... Clearly not to you... What other champion has failed to go to a neutral corner for more than a 10-count in the entire History of the nearly 100 year history of the neutral corner rule?? ... Serious question.
gilgamesh wrote: ↑05 May 2018, 16:54
Wouldn't have made any sense, but why should that matter?
Because the rules matter to some people.... Clearly not to you... What other champion has failed to go to a neutral corner for more than a 10-count in the entire History of the nearly 100 year history of the neutral corner rule?? ... Serious question.
I KNOW RIGHT!
Liston should've been awarded the win via TKO clearly.
Re: Did Sonny Liston take a dive against Ali?
Posted: 05 May 2018, 19:11
by oogiebe
BoxBuzz wrote: ↑05 May 2018, 16:34
It's all much clearer now...
So.....Liston goes in with a plan to take a dive.......But Ali goofs his plan by actually hitting him hard enough to discombobulate him (a little) which takes him off his focus and he temporarily reverts to instincts which has him attempting to get up after an unplanned genuine flash KD.......then coming to his senses he once again remembers the plan....and BACK DOWN HE GOES........however in his discombobulated state, he decides to get up once again....foiling his own blueprint for the night......BUT HOLD THE PHONE!!!! JWW saves the day with his incompetence and rules the fight is over, after listening to Nat, allowing Liston to get just what he wanted in the first place.
gilgamesh wrote: ↑05 May 2018, 16:54
Wouldn't have made any sense, but why should that matter?
Because the rules matter to some people.... Clearly not to you... What other champion has failed to go to a neutral corner for more than a 10-count in the entire History of the nearly 100 year history of the neutral corner rule?? ... Serious question.
I KNOW RIGHT!
Liston should've been awarded the win via TKO clearly.
No genius....stop putting words in my mouth... Nobody scored a TKO.... Ali could easily have lost by DQ and Liston WASN'T legally counted out because the rule book was tossed out... At worse for Liston the fight should have continued -- but he also could easily have won by DQ because of Ali's defiant refusal to follow the rules.
According to the rules Liston wasn't legally counted out... The count is suspended if somebody defies the neutral corner rule.. Only the ignorant would believe the referee didn't have a good case for handing Ali a DQ loss.
Because the rules matter to some people.... Clearly not to you... What other champion has failed to go to a neutral corner for more than a 10-count in the entire History of the nearly 100 year history of the neutral corner rule?? ... Serious question.
I KNOW RIGHT!
Liston should've been awarded the win via TKO clearly.
No genius....stop putting words in my mouth... Nobody scored a TKO.... Ali could easily have lost by DQ and Liston WASN'T legally counted out because the rule book was tossed out... At worse for Liston the fight should have continued -- but he also could easily have won by DQ because of Ali's defiant refusal to follow the rules.
According to the rules Liston wasn't legally counted out... The count is suspended if somebody defies the neutral corner rule.. Only the ignorant would believe the referee didn't have a good case for handing Ali a DQ loss.
I'm telling ya. Just when I thought this guy couldn't make any more sense he absolutely CRUSHES IT with the DQ a guy for something that nobody has ever been DQ'd for EVER IN THE HISTORY OF THE SPORT argument.
You're an absolute genius Kalan. I am in aww of you sir.
