Who could have KO'd Marciano

[sockdolager]

Marciano was said to have 'ran' EVERYDAY rain or shine, holidays or not while he was at the top, his legs certainly show it. He was also supposed to have used a 300lb 'heavy-bag', the point is Rocky was not a classy boxer, rather a crude fighter and he/everyone knew it.
.

I actually read he used a 500 pound bag. Either way his ability to punch his hardest no matter what, was uncanny.

[silkov]

I don't think that Shavers was talented enough to stop Marciano. Tyson petered out too quickly. I'd see Marciano weathering Tyson's initial onslaught and then stopping him. I'd give Foreman, Louis, Liston and Lewis a good shot at it.

So your telling me Foreman has a good shot at KO'ing Marciano and not Tyson? Even though Tyson punched just as hard as Foreman and had much better handspeed to go with it. Both Tyson and Foreman will swarm Rocky early and your hatred of Tyson is simply idiotic.

Tyson isnt Foreman though is he?... what come from behind victories has Tyson got?... the guy didn't have the heart that would be needed to beat Rocky...

[The Great John L]

I don't think that Shavers was talented enough to stop Marciano. Tyson petered out too quickly. I'd see Marciano weathering Tyson's initial onslaught and then stopping him. I'd give Foreman, Louis, Liston and Lewis a good shot at it.

So your telling me Foreman has a good shot at KO'ing Marciano and not Tyson? Even though Tyson punched just as hard as Foreman and had much better handspeed to go with it. Both Tyson and Foreman will swarm Rocky early and your hatred of Tyson is simply idiotic.

Why is it that every time someone mentions anything less than stellar about a fighter on this forum, they are a hater? I’m not sticking up for Decagon here (God forbid that should ever happen ), just some common sense. As Silkov noted, they were different fighters with entirely different styles.

And BTW, I don’ think that Dec said that Tyson COULDN’T KO Marciano, just that he thought Marciano had the advantage. Tyson was a very hard puncher with good hand speed, so of course he had a chance. But I also think that I would favor Rocky over Tyson, even though I rate Tyson higher in my all time HW rankings. Does any of this make any sense?

[silkov]

I don't think that Shavers was talented enough to stop Marciano. Tyson petered out too quickly. I'd see Marciano weathering Tyson's initial onslaught and then stopping him. I'd give Foreman, Louis, Liston and Lewis a good shot at it.

So your telling me Foreman has a good shot at KO'ing Marciano and not Tyson? Even though Tyson punched just as hard as Foreman and had much better handspeed to go with it. Both Tyson and Foreman will swarm Rocky early and your hatred of Tyson is simply idiotic.

Why is it that every time someone mentions anything less than stellar about a fighter on this forum, they are a hater? I’m not sticking up for Decagon here (God forbid that should ever happen ), just some common sense. As Silkov noted, they were different fighters with entirely different styles.

And BTW, I don’ think that Dec said that Tyson COULDN’T KO Marciano, just that he thought Marciano had the advantage. Tyson was a very hard puncher with good hand speed, so of course he had a chance. But I also think that I would favor Rocky over Tyson, even though I rate Tyson higher in my all time HW rankings. Does any of this make any sense?

kind of!... 8)
Personally, in a nutshell I see Tyson as a great puncher but not a great fighter or great champion.... he was simply too mentally flawed... Rocky on the other hand was one of the most determined champions with a huge heart... he would imo out gut Tyson much like Holifield did...

[The Great John L]

kind of!... 8)
Personally, in a nutshell I see Tyson as a great puncher but not a great fighter or great champion.... he was simply too mentally flawed... Rocky on the other hand was one of the most determined champions with a huge heart... he would imo out gut Tyson much like Holifield did...

Yeah that's kind of how I see it as well, although there would probably have been some tough moments in the first 3 or 4 rounds. Of course, I must be a Tyson hater, so what do i know...

[RazorKO]

I don't think that Shavers was talented enough to stop Marciano. Tyson petered out too quickly. I'd see Marciano weathering Tyson's initial onslaught and then stopping him. I'd give Foreman, Louis, Liston and Lewis a good shot at it.

So your telling me Foreman has a good shot at KO'ing Marciano and not Tyson? Even though Tyson punched just as hard as Foreman and had much better handspeed to go with it. Both Tyson and Foreman will swarm Rocky early and your hatred of Tyson is simply idiotic.

Tyson isnt Foreman though is he?... what come from behind victories has Tyson got?... the guy didn't have the heart that would be needed to beat Rocky...

Foreman probably hits harder than Tyson shot for shot, but Tyson is by far the greater and more accurate puncher and if people think Foreman could KO Rocky with his wild swings, than people shouldnt leave Tyson out.

Tysons been in his share of wars as well i.e the two Ruddock bouts and the first Holyfield fight.

[RazorKO]

I don't think that Shavers was talented enough to stop Marciano. Tyson petered out too quickly. I'd see Marciano weathering Tyson's initial onslaught and then stopping him. I'd give Foreman, Louis, Liston and Lewis a good shot at it.

So your telling me Foreman has a good shot at KO'ing Marciano and not Tyson? Even though Tyson punched just as hard as Foreman and had much better handspeed to go with it. Both Tyson and Foreman will swarm Rocky early and your hatred of Tyson is simply idiotic.

Why is it that every time someone mentions anything less than stellar about a fighter on this forum, they are a hater? I’m not sticking up for Decagon here (God forbid that should ever happen ), just some common sense. As Silkov noted, they were different fighters with entirely different styles.

And BTW, I don’ think that Dec said that Tyson COULDN’T KO Marciano, just that he thought Marciano had the advantage. Tyson was a very hard puncher with good hand speed, so of course he had a chance. But I also think that I would favor Rocky over Tyson, even though I rate Tyson higher in my all time HW rankings. Does any of this make any sense?

I say this because in a past thread, Decagon said along the lines of that Shavers had more stamina than Tyson. That definetly qualifies as someone disliking Tyson. Ill try and look for the thread and also most people seem to reflect Tyson the man on Tyson the fighter, you can hate him as a man but never hate him on what he achieved in the ring.

[The Great John L]

I say this because in a past thread, Decagon said along the lines of that Shavers had more stamina than Tyson. That definetly qualifies as someone disliking Tyson.

No, it qualifies him as someone who thinks Shavers has more stamina than Tyson. If Decagon did say that, while I don’t think that I would agree with it, neither of them was noted for great stamina, so it hardly qualifies as a far fetched opinion. While Shavers did run out of gas in many of his fights, he did hang in well against Ali. Of course, that’s because he fought a more controlled fight. Not much different than Foreman in his 2nd career. George’s stamina wasn’t any better in his 2nd career – in fact it wasn’t really as good – he just fought a more controlled fight and didn’t put as much energy into most of his punches.

Still not seeing where anyone is letting their personal opinion of Tyson the man affect their opinion of Tyson the fighter.

[silkov]

So your telling me Foreman has a good shot at KO'ing Marciano and not Tyson? Even though Tyson punched just as hard as Foreman and had much better handspeed to go with it. Both Tyson and Foreman will swarm Rocky early and your hatred of Tyson is simply idiotic.

Tyson isnt Foreman though is he?... what come from behind victories has Tyson got?... the guy didn't have the heart that would be needed to beat Rocky...

Foreman probably hits harder than Tyson shot for shot, but Tyson is by far the greater and more accurate puncher and if people think Foreman could KO Rocky with his wild swings, than people shouldnt leave Tyson out.

Tysons been in his share of wars as well i.e the two Ruddock bouts and the first Holyfield fight.

The thing is that Foreman would have been able to push Rocky back, Tyson wouldn't... or wouldn't be able to for long enough.... Tyson looked devastating against lower level fighters and faded fighters like Thomas etc but against higher calibre fighters such as Tillis, Tucker, Smith etc he struggled... even in his prime... basically when you stood up to Tyson he would break and Rocky would break him imo....

[Ambling Alp]

I'm not going to be popular after this but IMO anyone canbbe knocked out for 10 Marciano, Ali, Hagler, it doesn't matter. If they got caught right or often enough they'd go.

this is true.

I guess I have to disagree with you guys about this. As you know, Ali did fight several of the hardest punchers (and best finishers) of all time and wasn't ever knocked out. If Liston, Frazier, Foreman etc couldn't do it, it seems to indicate that Ali couldn't be knocked out.
Hagler also fought some great punchers and was never even close to being stopped.
There are a small % of fighters who have stood up to several great punchers and were never knocked out.

As for Marciano, it's true that he never faced the very best punchers of all time. However, he fought some guys who could punch and was only knocked down twice. Only a really hard puncher and great finisher could possibly knockout Marciano. Louis and Foreman would have the best chance. Shavers could deck him/hurt him, but Marciano would probably be able to whether the storm and comeback to win.

[jezzamundo]

Does anyone here think that Fighters like Earnie Shavers,Mike Tyson,George Foreman,Sonny Liston etc..could have knocked out the"Brockton Blockbuster.

Shavers had the power to KO anyone, but I'm pretty sure Marciano would beat him if they fought.

Tyson I would actually favour to beat Marciano, but probably on cuts. The Rock would win a rematch though.

Sonny Liston would have had a great chance, I could see him stopping Rocky on cuts in the mid to late rounds.

I could also see Lewis beating him on a late TKO of some description, but a decision would be more likely.

Most likely of all to KO Mariciano: George Foreman. I just can't see Rocky continuing to take massive uppercuts for more than a few rounds. TKO win to George.

[barry]

>>>Shavers at least fought one hard 15-round fight, against Ali. Both men petered out after about four rounds, but at least once in a great while, Shavers kept it going.<<<

As compared to what fighter?

[Ezzard]

I don't think that Shavers was talented enough to stop Marciano. Tyson petered out too quickly. I'd see Marciano weathering Tyson's initial onslaught and then stopping him. I'd give Foreman, Louis, Liston and Lewis a good shot at it.

So your telling me Foreman has a good shot at KO'ing Marciano and not Tyson? Even though Tyson punched just as hard as Foreman and had much better handspeed to go with it. Both Tyson and Foreman will swarm Rocky early and your hatred of Tyson is simply idiotic.

Why is it that every time someone mentions anything less than stellar about a fighter on this forum, they are a hater? I’m not sticking up for Decagon here (God forbid that should ever happen ), just some common sense. As Silkov noted, they were different fighters with entirely different styles.

And BTW, I don’ think that Dec said that Tyson COULDN’T KO Marciano, just that he thought Marciano had the advantage. Tyson was a very hard puncher with good hand speed, so of course he had a chance. But I also think that I would favor Rocky over Tyson, even though I rate Tyson higher in my all time HW rankings. Does any of this make any sense?

Thanks for that John... This is a forum. The idea is to put your point across. If you have a favourite fighter then defend them. If you find yourself bankrupt of the ideas or the arguments to continue, find another thread, move on, or shut up, don't whine on about people hating your poster boy.

BTW Razor I don't agree with many of your posts but I do like your strong opinions and I always look forward to reading what you've written.

[Ezzard]

I'm not going to be popular after this but IMO anyone canbbe knocked out for 10 Marciano, Ali, Hagler, it doesn't matter. If they got caught right or often enough they'd go.

this is true.

I guess I have to disagree with you guys about this. As you know, Ali did fight several of the hardest punchers (and best finishers) of all time and wasn't ever knocked out. If Liston, Frazier, Foreman etc couldn't do it, it seems to indicate that Ali couldn't be knocked out.

Alp

It does not indicate that he couldn't be knocked out, but it proves that he was never knocked out by those fighters in those particular fights. If Ali faces Foreman 100 times, 1,000, 10,000, etc... he would be KO'd at least once. I don't know if Decagon can quote you odds on a 10, 000 fight series...

[RazorKO]

Shavers at least fought one hard 15-round fight, against Ali. Both men petered out after about four rounds, but at least once in a great while, Shavers kept it going.

Shavers performed well in the Ali fight and I actually had him winning the fight. But that was only one fight where Shavers showed his endurance, his two fights with Holmes had Shavers gasping for air just after 5 rounds and Earnie looked dead tired. In the Lyle fight Shavers punched himself out in 3 rounds (Although Earnie should of won by 2nd KO).

Tyson showed in his prime he had endurance in the Tucker fights, Tillis, Ribalta and even when he wasnt prepared i.e Douglas or the two Ruddock fights.

[RazorKO]

So your telling me Foreman has a good shot at KO'ing Marciano and not Tyson? Even though Tyson punched just as hard as Foreman and had much better handspeed to go with it. Both Tyson and Foreman will swarm Rocky early and your hatred of Tyson is simply idiotic.

Why is it that every time someone mentions anything less than stellar about a fighter on this forum, they are a hater? I’m not sticking up for Decagon here (God forbid that should ever happen ), just some common sense. As Silkov noted, they were different fighters with entirely different styles.

And BTW, I don’ think that Dec said that Tyson COULDN’T KO Marciano, just that he thought Marciano had the advantage. Tyson was a very hard puncher with good hand speed, so of course he had a chance. But I also think that I would favor Rocky over Tyson, even though I rate Tyson higher in my all time HW rankings. Does any of this make any sense?

Thanks for that John... This is a forum. The idea is to put your point across. If you have a favourite fighter then defend them. If you find yourself bankrupt of the ideas or the arguments to continue, find another thread, move on, or shut up, don't whine on about people hating your poster boy.

BTW Razor I don't agree with many of your posts but I do like your strong opinions and I always look forward to reading what you've written.

Thanks Ezzard, it would be boring if everyone agreed with each other so different views what makes this forum interesting.

[barry]

>>No, it qualifies him as someone who thinks Shavers has more stamina than Tyson. If Decagon did say that, while I don’t think that I would agree with it, neither of them was noted for great stamina, so it hardly qualifies as a far fetched opinion.<<<

Well it's not really fair, nor is it accurate to say that Shavers had more stamina than Tyson, especially based on only one bout because many people use the Mike Tyson of the past ten years for they're arguments and debates of Tyson. What is not far-fetched is that the post-prison Tyson had pretty bad stamina and the Tyson of post-1997 had pathetic stamina, but the Tyson of 1985-1991 had good stamina, very good stamina, but many people still try to use the post-1997 Tyson in they're arguments against him and trying to compare the Tyson of post-1997 to the pre-1991 Tyson is very far fetched! Though I don't think stamina would be much of an issue in a Tyson-Marciano bout...if Tyson doesn't knockout Marciano rather quick then I would say that Marciano knocks out Tyson...whatever the outcome I would bet that it took place within five, or six rounds.

[The Great John L]

>>No, it qualifies him as someone who thinks Shavers has more stamina than Tyson. If Decagon did say that, while I don’t think that I would agree with it, neither of them was noted for great stamina, so it hardly qualifies as a far fetched opinion.<<<

Well it's not really fair, nor is it accurate to say that Shavers had more stamina than Tyson, especially based on only one bout because many people use the Mike Tyson of the past ten years for they're arguments and debates of Tyson. What is not far-fetched is that the post-prison Tyson had pretty bad stamina and the Tyson of post-1997 had pathetic stamina, but the Tyson of 1985-1991 had good stamina, very good stamina, but many people still try to use the post-1997 Tyson in they're arguments against him and trying to compare the Tyson of post-1997 to the pre-1991 Tyson is very far fetched! Though I don't think stamina would be much of an issue in a Tyson-Marciano bout...if Tyson doesn't knockout Marciano rather quick then I would say that Marciano knocks out Tyson...whatever the outcome I would bet that it took place within five, or six rounds.

Barry, I simply said that neither was noted for great stamina. While I agree that the pre prison Tyson had better stamina than the post prison Tyson, I do not feel that Tyson had very good stamina at any time during his career. While he did go distances pre 1991, he had only 3 KO’s after the 6th round in his entire career, and most reasonable observers would say that his abilities were considerably degraded in the second half of fights, even earlier in his career. Shavers also weakened as his fights wore on so I really don’t think it’s a stretch to say that neither fighter had great stamina, and some could argue, although I don’t agree, that Shavers had better stamina than Tyson. He did score more late round KO’s than Tyson so he did still carry his punch late into some of his fights. Again, I did not say that I agreed that Shavers had better stamina than Tyson, just that it’s not outrageous to say that, since there is some evidence that could be used to support that opinion.

[RazorKO]

>>No, it qualifies him as someone who thinks Shavers has more stamina than Tyson. If Decagon did say that, while I don’t think that I would agree with it, neither of them was noted for great stamina, so it hardly qualifies as a far fetched opinion.<<<

Well it's not really fair, nor is it accurate to say that Shavers had more stamina than Tyson, especially based on only one bout because many people use the Mike Tyson of the past ten years for they're arguments and debates of Tyson. What is not far-fetched is that the post-prison Tyson had pretty bad stamina and the Tyson of post-1997 had pathetic stamina, but the Tyson of 1985-1991 had good stamina, very good stamina, but many people still try to use the post-1997 Tyson in they're arguments against him and trying to compare the Tyson of post-1997 to the pre-1991 Tyson is very far fetched! Though I don't think stamina would be much of an issue in a Tyson-Marciano bout...if Tyson doesn't knockout Marciano rather quick then I would say that Marciano knocks out Tyson...whatever the outcome I would bet that it took place within five, or six rounds.

Excellent post. Too many people use the post 1997 Tyson in their arguements like you have stated, very good post.

[barry]

I didn't assume that you did John L...I was only presenting my opinion.

As to late round knockouts...I'm sure Tyson could have scored some late round knockouts if the chance had ever presented itself on a regular basis, but it didn't...Tyson always knocked his opponents out in rather quick fashion, but prior to 1991 those bouts that Tyson was forced to last into later rounds, well other than the Douglas bout, I cannot really recall a bout where Tyson was struggling to hold on because of stamina...nor do I recall any instances where Tyson was ever in any trouble because of stamina earlier in his career, other than with Douglas, but the same cannot be said of Shavers. Shavers was often in trouble if he did not get his opponent out within five, or six rounds...and it did not matter if it was against a Muhammad Ali, or against a Ron Stander…when Shavers ran out of gas a bout could go either way, though nearly 99% of the time it was in Shavers favor, which was part of what made him fun to watch.

Tyson and Shavers may have had similar stamina issues, but I do not recall seeing it in Tyson's prime as compared to Shavers prime. Tyson was not running on fumes at the end of his bouts with Tillis, Smith, Green, Tucker or even Ruddock. He was not fresh at the end, but stamina certainly was not an issue in those fights, or any other fights of that time in his career, of course with the exception of the Douglas bout. Stamina has never really been an issue for Tyson until after the Holyfield bouts and then he just simply quit training. Shavers was more like Tommy Morrison stamina-wise, though I feel that Shavers did have better stamina than Morrison, who had the worst stamina that I can remember a ranked heavyweight having, but pre-1991 Tyson...I just don't see it!

[The Great John L]

Shavers was often in trouble if he did not get his opponent out within five, or six rounds...and it did not matter if it was against a Muhammad Ali, or against a Ron Stander…when Shavers ran out of gas a bout could go either way, though nearly 99% of the time it was in Shavers favor, which was part of what made him fun to watch.

barry, I don’t think you are being fair to Shavers in this response. Most of his instances of total fatigue occurred late in his career, just like Tyson. Even against Ali he was probably several years past his prime. Hell, most Tyson fans say Tyson was over the hill at 24, yet here we are arguing about Shavers wearing down when he was 32+ years old. And the Stander fight was very early in his career. Shavers did not have all of the advantages that Tyson had when he started his career, so was not always as well prepared as he could have been. When he was well prepared, his stamina was comparable to Tyson’s, and I even think his power was better late in fights than Tyson’s. Of course, I still think in general that Tyson had better stamina than Shavers. But not by much. They both faded in the second half of fights at all stages of their careers. And it became more extreme later in their careers.

[barry]

Shavers power is unquestionable.

[The Great John L]

Shavers power is unquestionable.

And amazing that he could still deliver when he was exhausted.

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

Tyson looked devastating against lower level fighters and faded fighters like Thomas

how waws thomas faded? he was 28 years old and a top contender who just a couple years back had been champion. thomas was certainly near his prime

[The Great John L]

Tyson looked devastating against lower level fighters and faded fighters like Thomas

how waws thomas faded? he was 28 years old and a top contender who just a couple years back had been champion. thomas was certainly near his prime

We’ve been this road before. I was a HUGE Thomas fan, but his career started down hill after the Weaver fight. It was very difficult to watch. He was terrible against Berbick, and following that fight he never had another win against a good opponent. So while he wasn’t particularly old when he fought Tyson he was clearly a shell of his former self. Not sure what caused his decline – maybe his drug use, or maybe he just lost focus after winning the title, but it was pretty clear and evident to anyone who followed his career.

BTW, I’m not supporting the fact that Tyson wasn’t great. I was also a HUGE Tyson fan. He was a great fighter, but just like any fighter, he was always beatable and always exhibited flaws. For some reason many posters are just not capable of seeing the flaws, just the devastating KO wins. And those were pretty impressive.