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Posted: 22 May 2006, 04:01
by surf-bat
The Great John L wrote:Nero3000 wrote:Cleveland Williams hit Sonny with shots that could have knocked down a barn. Sonny took them. Ron Lyle, who carried less power in his mitts, floored and hurt Foreman several times. So that would dispense with the theory that George is more durable than Sonny, wouldn't it?
Please list all of the world class HWs that Cleveland Williams KOd that proves he was a harder puncher than Lyle? Williams early record looks kinda like Lamar Clarks, and it hardly got much better later in his career. Williams had far too weak a resume to classify him as a puncher in the league of Lyle. Or Norton for that matter. Keep trying.
What Brock said. Also, watch films of both men. Then tell me if our eyes lie.
Posted: 22 May 2006, 04:29
by surf-bat
The Great John L wrote:Nero3000 wrote:Cleveland Williams hit Sonny with shots that could have knocked down a barn. Sonny took them. Ron Lyle, who carried less power in his mitts, floored and hurt Foreman several times. So that would dispense with the theory that George is more durable than Sonny, wouldn't it?
Please list all of the world class HWs that Cleveland Williams KOd that proves he was a harder puncher than Lyle? Williams early record looks kinda like Lamar Clarks, and it hardly got much better later in his career. Williams had far too weak a resume to classify him as a puncher in the league of Lyle. Or Norton for that matter. Keep trying.
Please list all the world class MWs that John Mugabi beat that proves he was a harder puncher than Marvin Hagler?
See where I'm going with this?
Posted: 22 May 2006, 05:46
by The Great John L
Nero3000 wrote:The Great John L wrote:Nero3000 wrote:Cleveland Williams hit Sonny with shots that could have knocked down a barn. Sonny took them. Ron Lyle, who carried less power in his mitts, floored and hurt Foreman several times. So that would dispense with the theory that George is more durable than Sonny, wouldn't it?
Please list all of the world class HWs that Cleveland Williams KOd that proves he was a harder puncher than Lyle? Williams early record looks kinda like Lamar Clarks, and it hardly got much better later in his career. Williams had far too weak a resume to classify him as a puncher in the league of Lyle. Or Norton for that matter. Keep trying.
Please list all the world class MWs that John Mugabi beat that proves he was a harder puncher than Marvin Hagler?
See where I'm going with this?
No, and no one with any brain could see where you are going with this. I never mentioned anyhting about Mugabi and Hagler.
And yes I have seen many of Williams fights. BTW, I notice that you didn't list any of Williams great conquests. Probably because other than Terrell there aren't any. You might also notice that once he finaly did starte fighting guys with any experience he started fighting rounds.
Posted: 22 May 2006, 05:58
by The Great John L
BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:
Please list all of the world class HWs that Cleveland Williams KOd that proves he was a harder puncher than Lyle?
going by his record doesnt mean shit. fact is, cleveland williams was avoided by most of the top contenders/champions of the late 50s-early 60s. thats why his record is not as great as it seems. some of the best fighters of that era avoided him were guys he would have knocked out and they knew it which was why they were so scared to fight him.
kinda like elmer ray in the mid 1940s who had to feast on knocking out no names since the top contender would not fight him because they knew ray would knock them out.
heres a list of men cleveland williams knocked out i think u underate it a little...........
6'3 205lb John Holman- Holman was a dangerous hard punching fringe contender who was top 10 ranked in the mid 1950s. holman didnt have much skill, but he could bang
6'1 208lb Alex Miteff- Miteff was a fringe top 10 ranked contender in the 1960s.
6'0 195lb Alonzo Johnson- Johnson was never knocked out before he fought cleveland williams despite fighting the likes of muhammad ali, nino valdes, eddie machen, alejandro lavorante, zora folley all men who he lasted the distace with. when johnson fought williams, williams starched johnson out in one round! if u ever watched johnson vs ali which im sure u have, u will find johnson gave ali a tough time. johnson was a good boxer.
6'6 200lb ernie terell- by far cleveland williams best win. terell was one of the best contenders of the 1960s and was WBA champion. terell is defintley a top 50 heavyweight of all time. this is a big win. this was the only time terell was ever stopped in his prime.
6'2 190lb sonny banks- banks was a journeyman, but he was a very hard puncher
i did not include
- young jack johnson since he was virtually shot when cleveland williams beat him
in comparison lets look at ron lyles KO resume.............
past his prime buster mathis
jose luis garcia
jurgen blin
earnie shavers- shavers was easier to knock out then terell was
honestly how is that better than cleveland williams?
i might add lyle was given far more oppertunitys to fight contenders or champions then the highly avoided williams was
Yes that's quite an impressive list of fighters you got there for Williams. You conveniently miss the fact that Lyle also came within an eyelash of stopping Foreman and was also doing extremely well against Ali before getting stopped. And no he didn't KD Ali, but if you saw the fight you know Ali gave a great deal of respect to Lyle's power.
Williams resume is stacked with setups, and the very few times he stepped up the competition, he failed miserably. Except of course against Terrel, who beat him in a rematch. As you noted Terrell was the WBA champ while Ali was the world champ. Kind of like being IBO HW champ today. And when Williams fought him, he really hadn't perfected his jab and clutch style. And I guess you are going to say that Terrell had a better chin than Foreman? Actually, Williams best fight was probably his draw against Machen.
Of course I think you've got a case of Brockyvision when it comes to Williams.
Posted: 22 May 2006, 08:14
by dr_devious
This would be like the Foreman-Frazier fights, early to mid round KO win for Sonny Liston. However, I think that both Liston and Foreman are the 2 most destructive heavyweights in history, no other fight would take out Smokin Joe in this way. Also, Joe didnt look as fit in the 2 Foreman fights as he had in leading up to the first Ali fight, he may have done better if the Foreman fights had been earlier in his career
Posted: 22 May 2006, 12:43
by surf-bat
The Great John L wrote:Nero3000 wrote:The Great John L wrote:
Please list all of the world class HWs that Cleveland Williams KOd that proves he was a harder puncher than Lyle? Williams early record looks kinda like Lamar Clarks, and it hardly got much better later in his career. Williams had far too weak a resume to classify him as a puncher in the league of Lyle. Or Norton for that matter. Keep trying.
Please list all the world class MWs that John Mugabi beat that proves he was a harder puncher than Marvin Hagler?
See where I'm going with this?
No, and no one with any brain could see where you are going with this. I never mentioned anyhting about Mugabi and Hagler.
And yes I have seen many of Williams fights. BTW, I notice that you didn't list any of Williams great conquests. Probably because other than Terrell there aren't any. You might also notice that once he finaly did starte fighting guys with any experience he started fighting rounds.
We're not comparing resumes. We're debating who had more power. You suggest that because Lyle beat the better fighters then that's proof positive that he was the harder puncher. My Mugabi/Hagler parallel should diffuse that notion. Hagler ko'd the better fighters. Does that mean that he hits harder than Mugabi?
How about just watching the films again then tell me Lyle hits harder.
Posted: 22 May 2006, 12:48
by surf-bat
Then again, you seem to think that Foreman had "better feet" and more speed then Sonny. This despite all the filmed evidence to the contrary. You don't trust your own two eyes, so maybe watching Williams and Lyle is useless.
Posted: 22 May 2006, 13:49
by The Great John L
Nero3000 wrote:Then again, you seem to think that Foreman had "better feet" and more speed then Sonny. This despite all the filmed evidence to the contrary. You don't trust your own two eyes, so maybe watching Williams and Lyle is useless.
I have seen many of Williams and Lyle’s fights, and my eyes are fine. Someone KOing 2nd rate competition proves nothing, or else maybe Butterbean has more power both of them.
I think we need to simply agree to disagree.
Posted: 22 May 2006, 14:00
by BrocktonBlockbuster49
didnt ron lyle knock out 2nd rate competition?
* dont try to dismiss terell as not yet reaching his prime the first time around vs williams. thats a bunch of bias. williams beat a prime terell, and if u refuse to believe that, then i will say to you that williams was not the same fighter come the 2nd fight which is why he lost to terell
terell was a far harder fighter to knock out than shavers
Posted: 22 May 2006, 15:56
by The Great John L
BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:didnt ron lyle knock out 2nd rate competition?
Of course he did, but you’re still not seeing anything other than what you want to see. When Williams really stepped up the competition, he was squashed. Lyle nearly KOd Foreman, and also gave Ali hell. I’m not even going to mention Shavers, since he doesn’t count, but Lyle was actually fighting breathing opponents before his 15th pro fight and was only blown out after he was 38+ years old. Of course, in Brocky terms you probably say that he was still in his prime.
Terrell, was, well Terrell. I agree he was clearly better than just about everyone else that Williams fought, but I don’t think I agree with him as a top 50 HW. Have you ever seen Terrell fight? The reason he wasn’t stopped much was because he fought the most god awful jab and clutch survival style of just about any HW title claimant. His chin was not better than Shavers’, his style was just more conducive to survival.
Let’s just agree to disagree. If you want the parting shot, please fire away.
Posted: 22 May 2006, 20:04
by dempseyfire
Compared to Ruiz, Terrel as not nearly as bad. Yes he had a boring style, but he also had great conditioning, an outstanding hard left jab, and pretty good technical boxing skills. He was one of the top HWs of the mid-late 60s. A KO win over Terrell at his best is a very good win, as is a draw with a prime Machen.
On the larger Lyle-Williams comparison, I'd rank them fairly on an equal level. Williams had more natural talent but Lyle has the slightly better record. Both were excellent HW fighters who would blow through the competetion today.
Posted: 23 May 2006, 15:53
by walshb
In Listons two big fights he proved what a loser he was. A bully who could dish it out but couldn't take it. He does not deserve to be mentioned in the same breath as the amazing tough and powerful Frazier or Foreman who was at his peak a monster with a chin and heart like a lion.
Frazier would simply wear Liston out in 7-8 rds of non stop pressure, destroy the guys body. Remember Sonny had nowhere near the reflexes or speed of Ali and his footwork was poor, so Joe will be on top iof him all night.
Foreman just gotta show up and he wins
Posted: 23 May 2006, 16:41
by surf-bat
walshb wrote:In Listons two big fights he proved what a loser he was. A bully who could dish it out but couldn't take it. He does not deserve to be mentioned in the same breath as the amazing tough and powerful Frazier or Foreman who was at his peak a monster with a chin and heart like a lion.
Frazier would simply wear Liston out in 7-8 rds of non stop pressure, destroy the guys body. Remember Sonny had nowhere near the reflexes or speed of Ali and his footwork was poor, so Joe will be on top iof him all night.
Foreman just gotta show up and he wins
In his second fight with Ray Leonard, Roberto Duran showed what a loser he was. A bully who could dish it out but couldn't take it.
Fair is fair, right Walsh?
Posted: 23 May 2006, 18:52
by Ericang
Liston by KO
Posted: 23 May 2006, 22:28
by BrocktonBlockbuster49
walshb wrote:In Listons two big fights he proved what a loser he was. A bully who could dish it out but couldn't take it. He does not deserve to be mentioned in the same breath as the amazing tough and powerful Frazier or Foreman who was at his peak a monster with a chin and heart like a lion.
Frazier would simply wear Liston out in 7-8 rds of non stop pressure, destroy the guys body. Remember Sonny had nowhere near the reflexes or speed of Ali and his footwork was poor, so Joe will be on top iof him all night.
Foreman just gotta show up and he wins
i think ur a liston hater and u need to go watch film of a prime liston
Posted: 24 May 2006, 03:11
by surf-bat
Decagon wrote:Brock, I liked your post comparing the defeated opponents of Lyle and Williams, respectively. Most observers would probably say that Williams had much better one-punch power than Lyle. But I think that it's wrong to define Lyle as simply a puncher. He could box, he could swarm, and he had a lot of tools that he could use in the ring.
He was a better, more well rounded fighter than Williams. I agree. But Cleveland was definitely the harder puncher. In fact many boxing experts consider him the hardest hitting heavyweight of the decade, even harder than Liston.
Posted: 24 May 2006, 10:07
by walshb
Nero3000 wrote:walshb wrote:In Listons two big fights he proved what a loser he was. A bully who could dish it out but couldn't take it. He does not deserve to be mentioned in the same breath as the amazing tough and powerful Frazier or Foreman who was at his peak a monster with a chin and heart like a lion.
Frazier would simply wear Liston out in 7-8 rds of non stop pressure, destroy the guys body. Remember Sonny had nowhere near the reflexes or speed of Ali and his footwork was poor, so Joe will be on top iof him all night.
Foreman just gotta show up and he wins
In his second fight with Ray Leonard, Roberto Duran showed what a loser he was. A bully who could dish it out but couldn't take it.
Fair is fair, right Walsh?
We ain't discussing Duran are we, but as you brought it up, I would say it's not the same. Duran quit out of pure boredom and uninterest. Liston quit because he was a bully who couldn't stand the fact that he was being whupped and rather tha take defeat like a man, he feigned injury. I don't hate Liston, I just think the credit some people give him is unworthy. He does not come close to Frazier in terms of achievement, heart, guts and sportsmanship and his lack of character and temperament would see Frazier annihilate him.
Posted: 24 May 2006, 13:38
by BrocktonBlockbuster49
Decagon wrote:Nero3000 wrote:He was a better, more well rounded fighter than Williams. I agree. But Cleveland was definitely the harder puncher. In fact many boxing experts consider him the hardest hitting heavyweight of the decade, even harder than Liston.
Patterson and Ingo could hit a little, too. I don't know. Williams might be the obvious choice, but we can only guess.
i think liston was defintley the hardest puncher of that era. he had possibly the hardest left hook of all time.
Posted: 24 May 2006, 15:03
by BoxBuzz
Duran quit out of pure boredom and uninterest.
??? Walshb? I don't think so and I am a big Duran fan....I think he had to hit the John and chose not to release in front of a crowd. No one gets bored in a fight do they? winning or losing seems like an unlikely place to lose interest
Posted: 24 May 2006, 16:23
by walshb
Well if you are a big Duran fan then surely you would have realised that Roberto wanted no part of that fight at all, his head wasn't right, his training and diet weren't right and he just was not bothered. It's the most obvious conclusion I got from seeing the fight and reading about the build up to the fight. Regardless I think Ray would have beat him, as I rate Leonard better at Welter despite the earlier loss. Listons case is a whole different story
Posted: 24 May 2006, 17:28
by surf-bat
walshb wrote:Nero3000 wrote:walshb wrote:In Listons two big fights he proved what a loser he was. A bully who could dish it out but couldn't take it. He does not deserve to be mentioned in the same breath as the amazing tough and powerful Frazier or Foreman who was at his peak a monster with a chin and heart like a lion.
Frazier would simply wear Liston out in 7-8 rds of non stop pressure, destroy the guys body. Remember Sonny had nowhere near the reflexes or speed of Ali and his footwork was poor, so Joe will be on top iof him all night.
Foreman just gotta show up and he wins
In his second fight with Ray Leonard, Roberto Duran showed what a loser he was. A bully who could dish it out but couldn't take it.
Fair is fair, right Walsh?
We ain't discussing Duran are we, but as you brought it up, I would say it's not the same. Duran quit out of pure boredom and uninterest. Liston quit because he was a bully who couldn't stand the fact that he was being whupped and rather tha take defeat like a man, he feigned injury. I don't hate Liston, I just think the credit some people give him is unworthy. He does not come close to Frazier in terms of achievement, heart, guts and sportsmanship and his lack of character and temperament would see Frazier annihilate him.
You make excuses for Duran. Quitting is quitting, period. But what's worse is that you want to boil down Liston's entire 54 fight career to one fight. That is a cop-out.
Posted: 25 May 2006, 02:45
by dempseyfire
Nero3000 wrote:walshb wrote:Nero3000 wrote:
In his second fight with Ray Leonard, Roberto Duran showed what a loser he was. A bully who could dish it out but couldn't take it.
Fair is fair, right Walsh?
We ain't discussing Duran are we, but as you brought it up, I would say it's not the same. Duran quit out of pure boredom and uninterest. Liston quit because he was a bully who couldn't stand the fact that he was being whupped and rather tha take defeat like a man, he feigned injury. I don't hate Liston, I just think the credit some people give him is unworthy. He does not come close to Frazier in terms of achievement, heart, guts and sportsmanship and his lack of character and temperament would see Frazier annihilate him.
You make excuses for Duran. Quitting is quitting, period. But what's worse is that you want to boil down Liston's entire 54 fight career to one fight. That is a cop-out.
I agree Nero.
Walsh B, if Liston was such a 'bully' wouldn't he have quit in the first Williams fight, when Cleveland had smashed Listons face with several flush left hooks and had his nose bleeding? No, but he went on to knock out Williams and come back two rounds later.
If he was a quitter wouldn't he have quit vs Eddie Machen, who slickly avoided Liston's big bombs for 15 hard paced rounds? No, as Liston outpointed the slick Machen with a consistent hard jab and pressure round after round.
If he was a quitter wouldn't he have quit with a broken jaw vs Marshall in their 1st fight?
Liston was a tough SOB. Although it's impossible to know 100%, the evidence points to Liston really injuring his shoulder in the first bout vs Clay, and thus Liston did what Klit did vs Byrd (there's the additional factor that Liston really never liked being the 'hated' champion and was mentally disenfranchised, thus aiding in his decision to not come out after he'd hurt his shoulder). Most know stopped calling Vitali "Quitscko" as he showed later on he has the heart of a warrior. Liston should get the same courtesy.