BoxRec

The guy who fitted some carpets into my house the other week helped fit a new kitchen into Tony Sibsons house around 1983.

True, if not very interesting.

KOJOE90 wrote:The guy who fitted some carpets into my house the other week helped fit a new kitchen into Tony Sibsons house around 1983.

True, if not very interesting.

No, No! That was the best bit of the thread. Do tell me: how big is his sink and what were the taps like?

Terence wrote:For me the best all-round title performance from Hagler, as stated, is the Sibson demolition, he looked awesome that night.

What about the Mustafa Hamsho rematch?

After his fight with Hagler Leicesters Tony Sibson was quoted as saying (going from memory here)

"When I fought Hagler I was fighting a man who had mastered his art"

March 8/71

That night Joe Frazier was a great, great fighter. Mike Tson would never beat that Joe Frazier.

Terence wrote:I'd go for Frazier by mid-rounds KO. He would not fear Tyson and would return fire on him, I often wonder how Tyson would cope, mentally, with a similar sized guy who can back him up then return his fire. When Tyson loads up with his right he is wide open for a left hook, Frazier would take his head off and pound him into defeat.

similar sized? a peak frazier was only 204lb

silkov wrote:To be honest I think Frazier would scare Tyson to death... Tyson wouldnt be able to force Frazier back... Joe would be too strong for Tyson, he'd out work him on the inside (Tyson was a pretty poor inside fighter despite his lack of size) and break him up for a ko in about 6 to 8 rounds....

yes but frazier was not that strong. not strong in the mold of a marciano and dempsey. plus tyson had the faster handspeed and had the better two fisted punching skills. we could be looking at another frazier-foreman in terms of result.

frazier didnt have the chin to handle mikes combinations

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:

Terence wrote:I'd go for Frazier by mid-rounds KO. He would not fear Tyson and would return fire on him, I often wonder how Tyson would cope, mentally, with a similar sized guy who can back him up then return his fire. When Tyson loads up with his right he is wide open for a left hook, Frazier would take his head off and pound him into defeat.

similar sized? a peak frazier was only 204lb

204-217 is "pretty similar". Certainly more so than say 185-240 (Marciano-Lewis).

Evander had the chin to take Tysons shot

dont think so. holy couldnt take bert cooper or riddick bowes best. he couldnt even take michael dokes best.

tyson of 88 had a lot more snap on his punches, i defintley think he couldnt take tysons punches. virtually no one could

Not to be attacking Tyson, because I think he would have been a bad matchup for Frazier, but Tyson was far from an invincible terror prior to his drubbing by Douglas. If you watch him in his quick blowouts it’s pretty easy to remember him as being a superman who not only had explosive power but also had a great bobbing and weaving defense. However, if you see him against guys who could actually do something to survive, you see things a bit differently. For example, Tyson showed very little head movement, a limited jab and a very predictable offense against Frank Bruno in their first fight. Bruno was a very powerful fighter with a good punch, but was otherwise a pretty pedestrian fighter. In fact Tyson looked much quicker and more skilled in the first few rounds against Douglas, who was much quicker and vastly more skilled than Bruno. Of course, Tyson did KO Bruno, and pretty much controlled the whole fight, but he certainly didn’t look particularly quick or skilled in that fight, or several others. Perhaps they were simply off nights.

Anyway, against Frazier, I think Tyson’s explosive power would have been Joe’s undoing, although it’s not a stretch to think that Frazier might be able to survive an early onslaught and maybe even a few KD’s to recover and take charge in the middle rounds against Tyson. Possible, but not likely.

Frazier woiuldn't have been intimidated by Tyson, and that's half the victory.

I'd anticipte a fight simlar to Holyfield-Tyson.

pundit wrote:Frazier woiuldn't have been intimidated by Tyson, and that's half the victory.

I'd anticipte a fight simlar to Holyfield-Tyson.

Possibly. Unfortunately most fans today see the video of Frazier getting bounced around by Foreman or Ali III and think he was easy to hit, but he really had a pretty good defense. He was hittable, but he wasn’t easy to hit with a solid punch. And he clearly wouldn’t have been intimidated. I just think that Tyson probably would have been able to catch him solid, but if he couldn’t do it in the first 3-4 rounds, he would have been in trouble. Frazier was a much better offensive fighter than Holyfield.

It already happened:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwTE0mVG ... %20frazier

Wow, I'm suprised most seem to lean towards Frazier. I just think this is a terrible matchup for Frazier and with them both at their best, I'd take Tyson by early KO. He had quicker feet and hands, hit harder with a variety of punches and had a better chin . If Bonavena can have him in major trouble and Foreman can bounce him all over the canvas I don't see how he'd survive a prime Tyson. Tyson KO3.

hawaiianpunch wrote:Wow, I'm suprised most seem to lean towards Frazier. I just think this is a terrible matchup for Frazier and with them both at their best, I'd take Tyson by early KO. He had quicker feet and hands, hit harder with a variety of punches and had a better chin . If Bonavena can have him in major trouble and Foreman can bounce him all over the canvas I don't see how he'd survive a prime Tyson. Tyson KO3.

Of course, Tyson never fought Bonavena or Foreman, did he? While Tyson did pretty much clean out the division prior to being exposed by Douglas, the division really didn't contain much to compare to either Ringo or Foreman. Frazier beat Ali, Ellis, Quarry, Bonavena and Chuvalo. Generally a much better list than Tyson has on his resume.

Of course, as I noted before I think Tyson's style would be too much for Joe as well, but it's hardly a stretch to think that Joe could have pulled it out.

Exactly....and I give the nod to Frazier not purely on skill and talent which may well be in Tyson's favor, but rather on that unquantifiable aspect of "championship spirit". Joe would win the battle on the mental level and I think that would do the trick with Tyson....but things could also go horribly wrong for Joe on this one. If Joe won the first one (which I think he would) I would advise him not to take the rematch.

the division really didn't contain much to compare to either Ringo or Foreman.

michael spinx
tony tubbs
pinklon thomas
old but still formidable larry holmes
trevor berbick
bonecrusher smith
carl williams
tony tucker


some of these guys were just as good as bonavena

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:

the division really didn't contain much to compare to either Ringo or Foreman.

michael spinx
tony tubbs
pinklon thomas
old but still formidable larry holmes
trevor berbick
bonecrusher smith
carl williams
tony tucker


some of these guys were just as good as bonavena

Interestingly, I would have generally agreed with you and admitted a mmistake until I looked through that list.

Spinks - Bonavena would have crushed the fragile Spinks.
Tubbs - would have troubled Bonavena, but the conditioning difference could have been the difference, although this one is very close.
Thomas - one of my favorites, but his conditioning and focus were also problems. Close matchup.
Holmes - the rusty ill prepared one that faced Tyson would also have eventually been stopped by prime Bonavena.
Berbick - please. no contest. Similar styles, but Ringo was a much harder puncher.
Smith - very hard puncher with stamina and heart problems. Ringo wlaks through him and stops him late.
Williams - prime Williams probably beats Ringo most nights.
Tucker - another tough matchup for Bonavena

So maybe this group matches up OK with Bonavena, but my comment was addressing Frazier being hurt by Bonavena, so it was intended as a commentary on the punching power of Tysons early opponents, and the only one on the list who probably hit harder was Smith, so I'll stand by what I said. Tucker had some pop, but not quite as hard as Bonavena. Of course, Bruno's power was up there with Bonavena's power, but Tyson got wobbled by him.

I've got a lot of time for Mike Tyson (at his peak) BUT by the same token, Joe Frazier was and IS a Ring Legend...

SO, I'd say....

Joe Frazier, KO round 9.

(Althought the fight could go either due to referee stoppage).

Tyson either knocks Frazier out in the early rounds or gets knocked out himself in the later rounds.

Styles make fights and Frazier’s approaching forward style would suit Tyson. Frazier’s fights against George Foreman are a primary case in point. Tyson never faced a fighter of Frazier’s quality. Frazier would undoubtedly not be scared of Tyson, so if Tyson can't do away with of Frazier early on, Frazier would wear him down and benefit in the later rounds.

~Ward Fan~

I can see Tyson knocking down Frazier early, but after everytime he gets knocked down he'll be back up. Tyson wasn't exactly a defensive stalwart himself, he'll get hit. I lean towards Frazier who can win the battle of attrition, but I wouldn't underestimate a Tyson win.

The Great John L wrote:

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:

the division really didn't contain much to compare to either Ringo or Foreman.

michael spinx
tony tubbs
pinklon thomas
old but still formidable larry holmes
trevor berbick
bonecrusher smith
carl williams
tony tucker


some of these guys were just as good as bonavena

Interestingly, I would have generally agreed with you and admitted a mmistake until I looked through that list.

Spinks - Bonavena would have crushed the fragile Spinks.
Tubbs - would have troubled Bonavena, but the conditioning difference could have been the difference, although this one is very close.
Thomas - one of my favorites, but his conditioning and focus were also problems. Close matchup.
Holmes - the rusty ill prepared one that faced Tyson would also have eventually been stopped by prime Bonavena.
Berbick - please. no contest. Similar styles, but Ringo was a much harder puncher.
Smith - very hard puncher with stamina and heart problems. Ringo wlaks through him and stops him late.
Williams - prime Williams probably beats Ringo most nights.
Tucker - another tough matchup for Bonavena

So maybe this group matches up OK with Bonavena, but my comment was addressing Frazier being hurt by Bonavena, so it was intended as a commentary on the punching power of Tysons early opponents, and the only one on the list who probably hit harder was Smith, so I'll stand by what I said. Tucker had some pop, but not quite as hard as Bonavena. Of course, Bruno's power was up there with Bonavena's power, but Tyson got wobbled by him.

a peak pinklon thomas would jab bonavenas face off much like zora folley did to bonaevena. thomas has the better boxing skills.


i see a peak tubbs the better boxer outboxing bonavena for a unanimous decision. tubbs was a lot bigger and also had the superior handspeed.


holmes stopped by bonevena? no way. bonavena was not that big of a puncher, certainly not in the class of a peak mike tyson. it took a ATG puncher like mike tyson too knock out larry holmes. i dont care if larry holmes is in his 40s, bonaevan still aint stopping larry. larry had a awesome chin and loads of heart and great recup powers. a older slower holmes than one of the tyson fight beat ray mercer and gave a prime holy a close fight. i still think this is a toss up, i can see bonevans strength, pressure, youthness allowing him to outpoint holmes. bonavena did extremeley well with a rusty 28 year old ali, so i suspect he will do a lot better vs a 38 year old rusty holmes.

Berbick - please. no contest. Similar styles, but Ringo was a much harder puncher.

i wouldnt say that. this is a close fight. ringo was not that hard of a puncher, though he was a good one. i see bonavena outpointing the ackward berbick but a peak berbick was a very desceptive fighter. he seemed very ackward and crude yet he was incredible strong and effective. he managed to beat very good fighters like greg page, pinklon thomas, john tate. bonevena in this fight could find himself being outphysicaled by the bigger stronger berbick. ill take the more skilled bonavena by close decision

Spinks - Bonavena would have crushed the fragile Spinks.

eh, no way, a prime 1985 michael spinx would have been way too elusive, skilled and ackwardly effective for bonavena to handle. spinx outboxes and outslicks bonaevena for a comfortable decision. bonavena was not a deadly puncher like tyson.

Williams - prime Williams probably beats Ringo most nights.

interesting opinion. i see u think highly of carl williams. do u rank this as one of tysons best wins? do u think williams beat holmes in there 85 encounter?

Tucker - another tough matchup for Bonavena

agreed, i see tucker using his physical advantages and jab to take win on points.

Smith - very hard puncher with stamina and heart problems. Ringo wlaks through him and stops him late.

agreed!

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:a peak pinklon thomas would jab bonavenas face off much like zora folley did to bonaevena. thomas has the better boxing skills.

Yes for about 5-6 rounds until he got tired and then Ringo destroys him.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:i see a peak tubbs the better boxer outboxing bonavena for a unanimous decision. tubbs was a lot bigger and also had the superior handspeed.

See previous comment. You seem to be sugar coating the poor conditioning of most of the 80’s HWs.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:holmes stopped by bonevena? no way. bonavena was not that big of a puncher, certainly not in the class of a peak mike tyson. it took a ATG puncher like mike tyson too knock out larry holmes. i dont care if larry holmes is in his 40s, bonaevan still aint stopping larry. larry had a awesome chin and loads of heart and great recup powers. a older slower holmes than one of the tyson fight beat ray mercer and gave a prime holy a close fight. i still think this is a toss up, i can see bonevans strength, pressure, youthness allowing him to outpoint holmes. bonavena did extremeley well with a rusty 28 year old ali, so i suspect he will do a lot better vs a 38 year old rusty holmes.

The poorly prepared and rusty Holmes that fought Tyson would have been no match for Bonavena, or just about any other top HW from the late 60’s early 70’s era. The key is that he was very poorly prepared for Tyson.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:i wouldnt say that. this is a close fight. ringo was not that hard of a puncher, though he was a good one. i see bonavena outpointing the ackward berbick but a peak berbick was a very desceptive fighter. he seemed very ackward and crude yet he was incredible strong and effective. he managed to beat very good fighters like greg page, pinklon thomas, john tate. bonevena in this fight could find himself being outphysicaled by the bigger stronger berbick. ill take the more skilled bonavena by close decision

I’m not sure that Joe Frazier would agree that Ringo wasn’t a very hard puncher. You also might want to rewatch his fight with Ali because he certainly put some hurt on Ali.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:eh, no way, a prime 1985 michael spinx would have been way too elusive, skilled and ackwardly effective for bonavena to handle. spinx outboxes and outslicks bonaevena for a comfortable decision. bonavena was not a deadly puncher like tyson.

See earlier comments. I agree Ringo didn’t punch as hard as Tyson – who did? But he certainly punhed hard enough and was determined enough to destroy the fragile Spinks.

A few other comments.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:a peak pinklon thomas would jab bonavenas face off much like zora folley did to bonaevena. thomas has the better boxing skills.

Brocky, please recall that Ringo had EIGHT fights going against Folley, who had over 75(!!) fights. Perhaps Ringo may have been a little green in that fight?

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:i see u think highly of carl williams. do u rank this as one of tysons best wins? do u think williams beat holmes in there 85 encounter?

I think Williams was highly skilled with a so-so chin. The difference between Williams and say Tubbs and Thomas, both of whom I think were better all around than Williams, is that Williams was much more diligent in the gym than either of them and probably would have been able to weather the constant pressure from Ringo better.

The Holmes fight was very close. When I watched it live I thought that Williams should have gotten the decision, and in subsequent viewings of the fight I still think he edged Holmes, but it was very close.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:agreed, i see tucker using his physical advantages and jab to take win on points.

Again, Tucker used to actually train for fights, so his skill advantage actually mattered.

As far as Ringo’s punching ability is concerned, I think you may be short changing him. Ringo was one of only 2 men to drop Frazier, and also had Ali stunned several times in their fight.

- spinx certainly had way too much skill for the likes of bonavena. oscar would never catch the ackward elusive spinx.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:- spinx certainly had way too much skill for the likes of bonavena. oscar would never catch the ackward elusive spinx.

Interesting comment. Bonavena certainly landed quite a few shots on Ali, and even stunned him a few times. Perhaps you think Spinks had more skill than Ali? Or maybe you didn’t see that fight?

As I said before, Bonavena would have been too strong, aggressive and hit too hard for Spinks. I have a hard time seeing it any other way.