BoxRec

silkov wrote:Rocky finished guys with one punch, but he didnt knock many top giuys out early with single shots, usually they'd been worn down and taken a beating before. Charles, Moore, Cockell, Louis and Walcott all were koed or stopped after shipping heavy punishment from Rocky. Walcott koed Charles with one punch, Marciano beat him down. Williams is just about the only fighter I've seen come close to shaking a prime Liston... he landed some shots that would have koed most heavies and broke Listons nose... all in one round... Williams had simualr power to Shavers... he could be losing and then would land one punch and end it... same with Louis.

Rocky “didnt knock many top giuys out early with single shots”? Other than Terrell, what “top guys” did Williams KO? Everyone uses the Williams-Liston fights to justify all kinds of opinions, but to say that Williams was a “Shavers” type puncher because he “shook” Liston is pretty silly. Shavers KO’d Ellis and Norton and KD Lyle and Foreman (twice). Tell me again who Williams KO’d to warrant comparison to Shavers?

Williams was a vicious puncher. If Marciano punched harder than Williams it wasn't by very much at all. Not only was Williams quite a bit bigger, which a lot of time makes no difference whatsoever, but in Williams case it did. He had good technique and simply could bang, as anyone who ever watched a good portion of his career would tell you. To say that Marciano is a lot bigger puncher is simply just not true. He may be a bigger hitter, but as I said before, it wouldn't be by very much! Though I would always pick Marciano to win, a fight between Marciano and Williams would be very interesting!

i agree barry. its defintley not by much.


in terms of whos the harder hitter i slightly favor marciano though u can make a case for williams


but if ur asking whos the all around better puncher, than defintley marciano


i do think marciano knocks out williams, but it would be interesting and a great fight for the 3 rounds that it lasts

silkov im confused. rocky beatdown walcott? im pretty sure he scored a clean one punch KO over walcott. so wut if took 13 rounds, fact is he scored a clean one punch KO over walcott. williams never knocked out a fighter in that class with one punch.



williams power was frightening, i have his fight with jim wiley on tape, in just 33 seconds williams knocks wiley out cold for 5 minutes with 2 left hooks



williams landed flush on liston and liston didnt go down. i do think if marciano landed his flush right hand on liston, liston would go down. thats the difference between williams and marcianos power.

Tell me again who Williams KO’d to warrant comparison to Shavers?

thats not fair to do to williams. williams was avoided by a lot of the main contenders/champs in the late 50s-early 60s that prevented him from having a top resume. its not his fault, they ducked him cause they knew they might get knocked out by williams

silkov my point is satterfield was in the rex layne, harry kid mathews league. marciano knocked out both in under 6 rounds. bob satterfield came right after you in a toe to toe slugout. clarence henry bombed him out in 1, charles bombed him out in 2. archie moore bombed him out in 3. these guys were not the punchers marciano was.


fact is if satterfield comes into marciano in a toe to toe slugout, how does he expect to last more than 1 round? thats like suicice against a marciano. satterfield didnt even have a good chin!

why would it take marciano 8 rounds if satterfield comes right after him immeditatly? could satterfield take 1 of marcianos punches? i dont think so. once rocky lands, its over and it wont take rocky 8 rounds to land

The Great John L wrote:

silkov wrote:Rocky finished guys with one punch, but he didnt knock many top giuys out early with single shots, usually they'd been worn down and taken a beating before. Charles, Moore, Cockell, Louis and Walcott all were koed or stopped after shipping heavy punishment from Rocky. Walcott koed Charles with one punch, Marciano beat him down. Williams is just about the only fighter I've seen come close to shaking a prime Liston... he landed some shots that would have koed most heavies and broke Listons nose... all in one round... Williams had simualr power to Shavers... he could be losing and then would land one punch and end it... same with Louis.

Rocky “didnt knock many top giuys out early with single shots”? Other than Terrell, what “top guys” did Williams KO? Everyone uses the Williams-Liston fights to justify all kinds of opinions, but to say that Williams was a “Shavers” type puncher because he “shook” Liston is pretty silly. Shavers KO’d Ellis and Norton and KD Lyle and Foreman (twice). Tell me again who Williams KO’d to warrant comparison to Shavers?

Not silly at all, try watching the fight... as for Williams opponents try looking at his record yourself. Shavers opponents were also a mixed bunch but noone disputes his power. As for Marcinao, outside of Charles, Louis, Moore, and Walcott, all of whom were past their best, his opposition is hardly outstanding... people go on about Layne and Lastarza, well Roland was a decent fighter but nothing special and Layne was basically just a big strong badly conditioned kid with too much heart for his own good and a brave manager...

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:silkov my point is satterfield was in the rex layne, harry kid mathews league. marciano knocked out both in under 6 rounds. bob satterfield came right after you in a toe to toe slugout. clarence henry bombed him out in 1, charles bombed him out in 2. archie moore bombed him out in 3. these guys were not the punchers marciano was.


fact is if satterfield comes into marciano in a toe to toe slugout, how does he expect to last more than 1 round? thats like suicice against a marciano. satterfield didnt even have a good chin!

why would it take marciano 8 rounds if satterfield comes right after him immeditatly? could satterfield take 1 of marcianos punches? i dont think so. once rocky lands, its over and it wont take rocky 8 rounds to land

I'd say Satterfield was a much better boxer than Layne, better technique... I know Layne beat him but only after taking a bad drubbing. My take on Marcinao vs Satterfield is that Satterfield would start fast and Rocky was a slow starter and so I think Rocky would waer him down rather than ko him in one or two rounds.
When I said Rocky beat Walcott down I meant that Walcott was worn down by Marcinano over the course of their fight... he finished it with one shot but it was all the punches that Rocky had landed in the previous 8 rounds or so that really did the damage. Same thing with the Louis win really.

i dont think its fair to say walcott and moore were past there best silk. i would say both were very much at/near there best.

of course louis was far past his prime and charles was past his prime, but u can admit they both(especially charles) were dangerous top contenders

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:silkov my point is satterfield was in the rex layne, harry kid mathews league. marciano knocked out both in under 6 rounds. bob satterfield came right after you in a toe to toe slugout. clarence henry bombed him out in 1, charles bombed him out in 2. archie moore bombed him out in 3. these guys were not the punchers marciano was.


fact is if satterfield comes into marciano in a toe to toe slugout, how does he expect to last more than 1 round? thats like suicice against a marciano. satterfield didnt even have a good chin!

why would it take marciano 8 rounds if satterfield comes right after him immeditatly? could satterfield take 1 of marcianos punches? i dont think so. once rocky lands, its over and it wont take rocky 8 rounds to land

I actually think Satterfields chin wasnt as bad as some say, otherwise he wouldnt have gone the distance and beaten people like Gonzarlez, he would not have beaten Williams, who must have layed some big shots on him. Imo Satterfield was vulnerble but didnt have an out and out glass chin.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:

Tell me again who Williams KO’d to warrant comparison to Shavers?

thats not fair to do to williams. williams was avoided by a lot of the main contenders/champs in the late 50s-early 60s that prevented him from having a top resume. its not his fault, they ducked him cause they knew they might get knocked out by williams

Here we go again. When he stepped up to decent fighters, he started going the distance. When he truly he stepped up he was stepped on. The records are filled with guys who amassed impressive KO records before stepping up and being extended and then getting stomped by the top HWs. Yes it’s very likely that Ingo and Patterson avoided Williams, but neither was noted for having a strong chin. So we’re left with nothing but what Williams COULD have done, since he seldom actually showed this Shavers like KO power against top competition during his career. In fact, the one fight everyone brings up his KO of Terrell, but I don’t think Terrell was a top 10 HW at the time, and not yet perfected his jab and clutch style.

"
Exhibit A:

"It wasn't Rocky's fault, but he didn't have the best competition. He took on all comers, but a lot of them were old fighters who had seen better days — like Joe Louis, Jersey Joe and Archie Moore"

It's not differcult to spot a remark difference in the physical capabilities of Joe in '51, but I'd like to know when 'Jersey' Joe or Archie Moore (despite the latter being overmatched) looked fresher, more capable.

There are no laws in boxing opinions, nor is there such an entity who could be logically labelled an 'expert', but casual fans will eat what they're fed, alas myths are recycled for another generation.

If all one hears is Walcott was old then feeling inclined to agree will take its toll like almost an infectious obligation, Ted Spoon has received the same vibe off of both writers, no surprise.

Numerical factors matter only if they prove a factor. I'll be damned if it was age that beat Walcott during that heated battle in Chicago; arguably, probably the best fight the usually negative Walcott fought.

Archie Moore fought one of the most intense defensive fight's you may lay your sceptical eyes on. Again, where are these signs of 'ageing'?"



poster Ted Spoon from cyberboxing zone posted that, i thought it was one of the best posts i have ever read








no one from 1944-53 knocked out walcott other than marciano and louis. walcott was clearly hard to knock out, and it took a great fighter to knock walcott out. im talking the post felix bocchichio version walcott who actually had food in his stomach.

every rated fighter marciano faced, he knocked out.


marciano was one of the best KO artists who ever lived. he knew how to knock guys out.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:i dont think its fair to say walcott and moore were past there best silk. i would say both were very much at/near there best.

of course louis was far past his prime and charles was past his prime, but u can admit they both(especially charles) were dangerous top contenders

They were still great fighters but time certainly wasn't on there side and in their fights with Rocky his comparative youth was an advantage for him. I'm not really knocking Rockys opposition, just trying to show that you can pick holes in most fighters opposition if you really set out to... Willaims record speaks for itself... some of the top guys that he didnt fight simply refused to fight him but his power is there for all to see who have some of his fights...

The Great John L wrote:

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:

Tell me again who Williams KO’d to warrant comparison to Shavers?

thats not fair to do to williams. williams was avoided by a lot of the main contenders/champs in the late 50s-early 60s that prevented him from having a top resume. its not his fault, they ducked him cause they knew they might get knocked out by williams

Here we go again. When he stepped up to decent fighters, he started going the distance. When he truly he stepped up he was stepped on. The records are filled with guys who amassed impressive KO records before stepping up and being extended and then getting stomped by the top HWs. Yes it’s very likely that Ingo and Patterson avoided Williams, but neither was noted for having a strong chin. So we’re left with nothing but what Williams COULD have done, since he seldom actually showed this Shavers like KO power against top competition during his career. In fact, the one fight everyone brings up his KO of Terrell, but I don’t think Terrell was a top 10 HW at the time, and not yet perfected his jab and clutch style.

Well if you saw any of Williams fights you'd see his power, also you'd see that Williams had very good technical skills and fast hands... hwo can you say he never proved his power?.... that is a silly statement if ever I heard one...

silkov wrote:Not silly at all, try watching the fight... as for Williams opponents try looking at his record yourself. Shavers opponents were also a mixed bunch but noone disputes his power. As for Marcinao, outside of Charles, Louis, Moore, and Walcott, all of whom were past their best, his opposition is hardly outstanding... people go on about Layne and Lastarza, well Roland was a decent fighter but nothing special and Layne was basically just a big strong badly conditioned kid with too much heart for his own good and a brave manager...

I have seen the fight. He was KO’d.

Yes, Shavers had a bunch of bums on his record, but he also beat top HWs and also KD some other top HWs including ATG Foreman. You coneviently avoided answering the question of what top HW did Williams KO? While this all nothing but opinion, there should be some accomplishment in his career that could put Williams in the Shavers category besides “he landed bombs on Liston”.

Again you say “outside of Charles, Louis, Moore, and Walcott”. I’ll ask agin, who exactly did Williams KO, or even KD that could compare to this list. Even if some of them may have been past their prime?

Perhaps we could say that Herbie Hide was a Shavers type puncher because he staggered Riddick Bowe? And look at that KO percentage!! The reason he didn’t beat any top HWs is because they all avoided him until he was way past his prime.

The Great John L wrote:

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:

Tell me again who Williams KO’d to warrant comparison to Shavers?

thats not fair to do to williams. williams was avoided by a lot of the main contenders/champs in the late 50s-early 60s that prevented him from having a top resume. its not his fault, they ducked him cause they knew they might get knocked out by williams

Here we go again. When he stepped up to decent fighters, he started going the distance. When he truly he stepped up he was stepped on. The records are filled with guys who amassed impressive KO records before stepping up and being extended and then getting stomped by the top HWs. Yes it’s very likely that Ingo and Patterson avoided Williams, but neither was noted for having a strong chin. So we’re left with nothing but what Williams COULD have done, since he seldom actually showed this Shavers like KO power against top competition during his career. In fact, the one fight everyone brings up his KO of Terrell, but I don’t think Terrell was a top 10 HW at the time, and not yet perfected his jab and clutch style.

You could say the same thing about Shavers going the distance when he stepped up and being beaten when he stepped up... Quarry, STander, Lyle... etc... even Rocky went the distance when he stepped up as did Louis and Liston and Foreman, yet noone disputes their punching power... most punchers endup going the distance when they step up, fact of life...

The Great John L wrote:

silkov wrote:Not silly at all, try watching the fight... as for Williams opponents try looking at his record yourself. Shavers opponents were also a mixed bunch but noone disputes his power. As for Marcinao, outside of Charles, Louis, Moore, and Walcott, all of whom were past their best, his opposition is hardly outstanding... people go on about Layne and Lastarza, well Roland was a decent fighter but nothing special and Layne was basically just a big strong badly conditioned kid with too much heart for his own good and a brave manager...

I have seen the fight. He was KO’d.

Yes, Shavers had a bunch of bums on his record, but he also beat top HWs and also KD some other top HWs including ATG Foreman. You coneviently avoided answering the question of what top HW did Williams KO? While this all nothing but opinion, there should be some accomplishment in his career that could put Williams in the Shavers category besides “he landed bombs on Liston”.

Again you say “outside of Charles, Louis, Moore, and Walcott”. I’ll ask agin, who exactly did Williams KO, or even KD that could compare to this list. Even if some of them may have been past their prime?

Perhaps we could say that Herbie Hide was a Shavers type puncher because he staggered Riddick Bowe? And look at that KO percentage!! The reason he didn’t beat any top HWs is because they all avoided him until he was way past his prime.

If you don't see the difference between Hide and Williams then theres no hope for you I'm afraid, Williams could fight, Hide couldnt.... simple as that....

i think we should stay on topic, we went from Satterfield to Marciano to Shavers to Williams etc. lol

silkov wrote:If you don't see the difference between Hide and Williams then theres no hope for you I'm afraid, Williams could fight, Hide couldnt.... simple as that....

That was a bit of sarcasm.

silkov wrote:You could say the same thing about Shavers going the distance when he stepped up and being beaten when he stepped up... Quarry, STander, Lyle... etc... even Rocky went the distance when he stepped up as did Louis and Liston and Foreman, yet noone disputes their punching power... most punchers endup going the distance when they step up, fact of life...

Yes and I would agree. However, the truly great punchers also had some real accomplishments, like Shavers KOs of Ellis and Norton and his KDs of Foreman and Lyle, both of whom had big time chins. Do you want me to list the guys that Louis, Foremna and Liston KOd? Once again, who did Williams KO that puts him in Shavers category? Not how hard the punches looked to, but what he actually accomplished?

I saw Jeff Merritt absolutely destroy Ron Stander at the old Cleveland Arena. They looked like the hardest punches ever thrown. You could hear them crack 30 rows into the stands. But I couldn’t put Merritt’s power up there with Shavers because he never KOd a top HW.

I look at it this way, for a man who started out as a Middleweight and went through the Light Heavyweight to Heavyweight divisions, Bob Satterfield's punch power never seemed to wear down or dissipate.

He knocked out Jake LaMotta in his early career, and that is truly saying something! Look at those men he beat from Middleweight to Heavyweight, that was a man of true frightening power.

WHo cares that he lost to Moore by KO, Moore has had more KO's than anybody else. Who cares that Layne starched him, in any other era Layne would have been champion and was so close to stopping Marciano's undefeated streak.

For a man who jumped divisions Satterfield was able to stop much more capable opponents than, let's say, Roy Jones Jr when he jumped to Heavyweight and couldn't hurt John Ruiz and everybody says how great Jones is, and Ruiz is far from great.

Satterfield is right up there in one of the greatest punchers in history. As far as who hit harder than who, I myself think Marciano hit harder and had a way better chin (that's for damn sure).

As far as the comparison to Williams, the "Big Cat" is judged unfairly and is one of the better punchers in Heavyweight history, and is sadly often remembered for being stopped by a prime Ali when he himself was far beyond his best.

Satterfield I would compare, as a Heavyweight, to Williams more than Marciano---and as far as Shavers goes, "The Acorn" was undeniably the most powerful puncher ever, had questionable chin and his endurance and stamina was a gimme, anybody who could get passed Shavers in the first few rounds had one helluva chance.

IrishRufusMurphy wrote:i think we should stay on topic, we went from Satterfield to Marciano to Shavers to Williams etc. lol

Yes, my appologies. Anyone who wants the last shot in the great Cleveland Willaims debate, please fire away.

The Great John L wrote:

silkov wrote:You could say the same thing about Shavers going the distance when he stepped up and being beaten when he stepped up... Quarry, STander, Lyle... etc... even Rocky went the distance when he stepped up as did Louis and Liston and Foreman, yet noone disputes their punching power... most punchers endup going the distance when they step up, fact of life...

Yes and I would agree. However, the truly great punchers also had some real accomplishments, like Shavers KOs of Ellis and Norton and his KDs of Foreman and Lyle, both of whom had big time chins. Do you want me to list the guys that Louis, Foremna and Liston KOd? Once again, who did Williams KO that puts him in Shavers category? Not how hard the punches looked to, but what he actually accomplished?

I saw Jeff Merritt absolutely destroy Ron Stander at the old Cleveland Arena. They looked like the hardest punches ever thrown. You could hear them crack 30 rows into the stands. But I couldn’t put Merritt’s power up there with Shavers because he never KOd a top HW.

John L,
I agree with most of what you are saying except for one thing. You keep saying that Shavers knocked Foreman down; but Shavers and Foreman never fought each other. Are you thinking of someone else that Shavers fought?

Yes, Shavers had a bunch of bums on his record, but he also beat top HWs and also KD some other top HWs including ATG Foreman.

u mean lyle was the one who KD foreman, honest mistake.

I'm giving up on this one, only so much of beating my head against a brick wall in one day before I get a headache..... some people just don't want to see the truth and have their lives lightened by the brightness of knowledge... :x 8) 8)