BoxRec

Decagon wrote:

pound per pound wrote:The shocking truth is Angelo Dundee said on interview that three to four minutes passed between rounds. The interview was shown on EPSN Classic during an Ali marathon. Dundee says a person was sent back to find spare gloves in the dressing room, and none were found, so they used the gloves they had.

The shocking truth is that Angelo Dundee is full of shit. I would EASILY pay $100 for a copy of a version of the fight that showed that the break between rounds was more than 65 seconds. Ali haters argue that all copies of the fight that show the true, 5-minute break between rounds, which they all saw on TV, have systematically been destroyed by the liberal media.

The break between rounds was 65 seconds. End of story.

No sir. I am not here to say that Ali could not recuperate within the given 60 seconds. I am here to say that Dundee, who was uncomfortable in the press interview, says his own man had extra time in the form of 3 to 4 minutes in-between rounds. Why would he lie? In the same interview Ali was in denial. He talked about the trip back on the air plane.

The British Radio of the fight says something to the effect of , " And we are back after the delay.

The glove incident is not the only sour grapes the British had for their beloved 'Enry.

Dundee revived Ali with smelling salts in-between the rounds, which is illegal in British boxing. This can be seen on un-edited video. Ali is out for a while, and then suddenly jerks his head up. He does not know where he is and gets off his stool. Dundee shoves him back down, and then applies his gamesmanship with the referee regarding the glove.

pound per pound wrote:

Decagon wrote:

pound per pound wrote:The shocking truth is Angelo Dundee said on interview that three to four minutes passed between rounds. The interview was shown on EPSN Classic during an Ali marathon. Dundee says a person was sent back to find spare gloves in the dressing room, and none were found, so they used the gloves they had.

The shocking truth is that Angelo Dundee is full of shit. I would EASILY pay $100 for a copy of a version of the fight that showed that the break between rounds was more than 65 seconds. Ali haters argue that all copies of the fight that show the true, 5-minute break between rounds, which they all saw on TV, have systematically been destroyed by the liberal media.

The break between rounds was 65 seconds. End of story.

No sir. I am not here to say that Ali could not recuperate within the given 60 seconds. I am here to say that Dundee, who was uncomfortable in the press interview, says his own man had extra time in the form of 3 to 4 minutes in-between rounds. Why would he lie? In the same interview Ali was in denial. He talked about the trip back on the air plane.

The British Radio of the fight says something to the effect of , " And we are back after the delay.

The glove incident is not the only sour grapes the British had for their beloved 'Enry.

Dundee revived Ali with smelling salts in-between the rounds, which is illegal in British boxing. This can be seen on un-edited video. Ali is out for a while, and then suddenly jerks his head up. He does not know where he is and gets off his stool. Dundee shoves him back down, and then applies his gamesmanship with the referee regarding the glove.

It's a good story, mate, and probably no dafter than many that get trotted out in this forum. If you want to believe in that fantasy you are in the right place. Why not embellish it further? The best storytellers always add on a little extra themselves.

Bladder wrote:See if you can find any next day newspaper reports or Ring or Boxing News reports of the fight that mention a long interval. Unless the entire assembled press missed it - it didn't happen.

In Henry Cooper's recent biography he also came clean about it and said it was a load of bollocks andb round only overran by several seconds.
but let's not let the truth get in the way of a good story, eh?

The same several seconds Deigo Corrales got, gotcha!

Decagon wrote:

pound per pound wrote:I am here to say that Dundee, who was uncomfortable in the press interview, says his own man had extra time in the form of 3 to 4 minutes in-between rounds. Why would he lie? In the same interview Ali was in denial. He talked about the trip back on the air plane.

Self-aggrandizement. Read Dundee's autobiography; it's full of holes. Dundee trained two of the greatest fighters of all time: Leonard and Ali, but the question has always been there; did he really mold those two men into the fighters that they became, or did he simply let the two of them use their natural abilities and desires? Muhammad Ali would have been great if almost anyone trained him. Give me a trainer like Teddy Atlas, who can turn an unmotivated light heavyweight into the World Heavyweight Champion.

Dundee was great in that he let Leonard and Ali break the rules, while many trainers wouldn't have, but imagine what Ali would have been like if he had a trainer that made him more focused on body shots. Imagine what Ali would have been like if he'd used the uppercut. He might have been better; he might have been worse. Dundee didn't make Ali, and deep down inside, perhaps he wishes that he did.

My offer still stands. $100 to anyone who can find me an unedited tape of Ali-Cooper I, including the "five minute break." I've been saying this same thing on forum after forum for years and years.

So what happened on film and video doesn't count? The Dundee interview I speak of was shortly after Clay vs Cooper I. Over the course of time people can stretch things, but doing so directly after the events are fresh in other minds can not be done. Listen to what Dundee said. This was his man. He was in spin control and forced by the press to explain the delay. I will offer $1,000.00 if this interview I spoke about does not exists. I have the proof here. The video interview after the fight and the smelling salts during the fight happened exactly as I described them. In fact, Ali’s eyes looked like a pinball machine when he came to. This is on film.

Dundee was instrumental to Ali's success. Ali was a special talent, but that talent was harnessed by the watchful eye of Dundee. Ali respected Dundee as a man and as a trainer. Let's us not forget Ali screaming to Dundee. " Cut the gloves off! " I want to show the world there is dirty work. Ali wanted to quit vs Liston. However, Dundee told him to sit down and shut up. Then he gave Ali instructions to run. If Ali did not have respect for Dundee, or if Joe Average was in the corner, I dare say Ali sticks to his initial urge to quit vs Sonny Liston in the first match.

However, Ali did have Dundee and the rest was history. A good trainer can often give the correct advice for victory.

I am not an Ali detractor. I believe he is the best heavyweight ever. No man beat better competition. However, a historian owes it to himself and to a lesser extent the public to interpret the known details correctly. If such talk is balasphmony than the Earth must be flat and the Sun must revolve around the flat Earth.

can't the creators of Red Dwarf sue boxrec for copyright theft?


i don't have much to add to this clay-cooper controversy. never liked cooper so i won't try & distort things. but i'll say this, marciano's standing 8 count (when the rule was not in effect!) against moore was cut out of the old films, wasn't it?

I do love conspiracy theories so I'm not sure if I trust my memory but I'm pretty sure that I've seen the footage of the smelling salts that P per P is talking about.

I was there and their was no extra time added on,they wanted him back boxing as soon as possible. The story is Bollocks

i saw the fight on tv and the delay was so long that the bbc showed an episode of "the magic roundabout" in its entirety to keep the viewers from switching channels. the magic roundabout lasts, as anyone knows, around 3 minutes at which point ZEBEDEE anounces "time for bed"
i clearly remember this.

angelo has a very keen sense of his own place in history.

Yes, Ali was dazed when he got back to the corner.
Yes, Dundee gave gave him smelling salts.
Yes, Dundee called the ref over and showed him the split glove.
No, there was not a long delay to find a replacement glove - the contest resumed only a few seconds later than it should have.
Henry Cooper has dined out on that story for a long time.

Some of you are being a bit harsh on Dundee here.... It was Dundee who got Ali to go out for the 5th round against Liston when he couldnt see, it was Dundee who got Leonard to do something special when he was behind in the first Hearns fight... Dundee trained a lot of other good boxers such as Luis Rodriguez... the fact that Ali chose Dundee to be his trainer says a lot... he might like telling stories but he knew what he was doing in there....

SteveO wrote:Yes, Ali was dazed when he got back to the corner.
Yes, Dundee gave gave him smelling salts.
Yes, Dundee called the ref over and showed him the split glove.
No, there was not a long delay to find a replacement glove - the contest resumed only a few seconds later than it should have.
Henry Cooper has dined out on that story for a long time.

For those that think Clay (Ali) got extra time, do you really think it makes any difference? Do you really think that Cooper would havbe won any how. Ali has always show that he is ok after a few seconds after he had been hurt hard. After 60 seconds, do you really think he would have still hurt so badly that Cooper would have taken him out?

As for Angelo Dundee, he is one those guys in boxing that loves to spin yarns. Archie Moore was the same way. So is Burt Sugar and George Foreman.

Dundee was great trainer. An bad or even an average trainer can screw up even a great fighter's career.
Dundee trained Pastrano who had limited talent and he won the lightheavyweight title. Jimmy Ellis was a struggling middleweight and Dundee helped him win the WBA title.

Ali had along with a great heart, and chin, remarkable recupertive powers and a fantastic brain when hurt, I think even if Ali had been floored midway through the round he would still have survived, ...this was Ali... the likes of Shavers couldnt ko him even when he was basically shot. I cant remember the exact extra time between rounds but it was no more than about 20 or 30 seconds... which also gave Coppers corner longer to work on his cut eye remember...

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actually it was that tear in the glove that caused the horrific cuts to henry's eye

Perhaps Muhammad was using the same glove in their second fight - that also ended with with Henry's eye a bloody mess.

harrygreb wrote:actually it was that tear in the glove that caused the horrific cuts to henry's eye

Having recently watched the fight, I was wondering the same thing myself. As soon as Clay connects with Cooper's eye in round 5 the blood starts pouring. That Cooper was a notorious bleeder, may have given Dundee an idea on how to get his man out of trouble.

anyone know the location of the tear on the glove? I had the impression for many years that it was not of great enough size or in a place that likely would have caused the cut, though as time goes on, just like other exaggerations the location of that tear has now probably moved to just the place it needed to be cause the cut.

So it was not Ali that beat Cooper, but a 20 minute break in the middle of the fight and fist breaking through a glove that for all intents and purposes had peeled completely away and off of Clay's hand.

BoxBuzz wrote:So it was not Ali that beat Cooper, but a 20 minute break in the middle of the fight and fist breaking through a glove that for all intents and purposes had peeled completely away and off of Clay's hand.

Yeah, that's how I remember it.

Here in britian we have had to listen and watch the cooper myth for 40 years,
Truth is,ali stuck his chin out all through that fight and got hit,but no time was lost over the glove episode,just hype,same hype as the myth of coopers so called hammer,laughable,because he NEVER knoched out a top contender FACT!
Dodged EVERY big hitter FACT!
Could`nt take a punch FACT!
Had no right to get a world title shot later on,because he was`nt good enough.,only reason was ali knew he could make money£143,000, (fact was the fight before against george chuvalo,he lost money)cooper£43.000 ,but still a Kings ransom for a no hoper like cooper.

Henry cooper only got stopped on cuts 3 times Ali twice and Peter Bates He got K OD qiute a lot.

its funny how people have to be so dogmatic on this site.
for example; if henry cooper was a second rate contender then his best punch had to be not up to much either. if henry wasnt a world beater then a torn glove couldnt have caused his cuts!!!
PLEASE GENTLEMEN, USE YOUR BRAINS.
its clear that henry WAS a good opponent as he came within a whisker of a KO.
thats boxing. a hopeful lesser talent takes on a gifted individual and makes inroads. i'm sure that henry's knockdown of clay gave ideas to many tacticians in the sport if nothing else.
i dont know whether the cut was caused by the tear but it doesnt take a tear of any great size to be dangerous espesh to a guy with paper tissue skin.
the delay of less than ten seconds would not have impacted on the outcome of the fight. perhaps psychologically, maybe.
but although this is an opinion based site i'm surprised that this subject is an either/or for so many posters. its more complex than that and henry deserves his due for being a good contender and champ of many years this side of the pond.

BoxBuzz wrote:anyone know the location of the tear on the glove? I had the impression for many years that it was not of great enough size or in a place that likely would have caused the cut, though as time goes on, just like other exaggerations the location of that tear has now probably moved to just the place it needed to be cause the cut.

So it was not Ali that beat Cooper, but a 20 minute break in the middle of the fight and fist breaking through a glove that for all intents and purposes had peeled completely away and off of Clay's hand.

A best as I can recall there was a small tear on the underside of the glove, along the bottom edge. Clay/Ali got back to the corner, Angelo spotted the tear and stuck his finger in, loosening a bit of the filling. He then started making a big fuss about the glove and called for a replacement. The ref told him to forget it and the fight got back on track with only a small delay.

There wasn't enough padding/filling removed to reduce the glove to the point where Clay was as good as hitting Cooper with a bare fist. As soon as he cut Cooper earlier in the fight Clay knew he had him set up for a 5th round finish as he had predicted - Henry was firing off hard punches in Rnd 4 as he knew cuts and time were against him, and Ali was dodging most of them till Cooper landed fair and square right at the end of the round. Once Clay started landing heavy shots on Henry's eyes in Rnd 5 it was over.

J

pound per pound wrote:
Dundee revived Ali with smelling salts in-between the rounds, which is illegal in British boxing. This can be seen on un-edited video. Ali is out for a while, and then suddenly jerks his head up. He does not know where he is and gets off his stool. Dundee shoves him back down, and then applies his gamesmanship with the referee regarding the glove.

Exact description of what happened.