BoxRec

Well, the debate is about the two fighters at they're very best and both fighters at they're very best...well Loughran is by far the more skilled, Liston is by far the more powerful, so which wins out...skill, or power? I'll take power in this instance. Liston was not the best when he would be discouraged and frustrated and Loughran would certainly be able to frustrated Liston. Loughran fought several opponents with a big reach and it was not an issue that really bothered him. Liston, at his best, had a tremendous jab, but Loughran, at his best, could very easily deal with it as he often did with the top heavyweights of the 30s.

barry wrote:If Bert Whitehurst can take Liston the limit...twice...then an absolutely brilliant technician like Loughran certainly would as well and it would be a fight that Liston would have to use all he had to win, which I think he would have, but it would not be a surprise to see Loughran win on points either!

Whitehurst was saved by the bell from a knockout when Sonny knocked him out of the ring. Whitehurst was stumbling around dazed. The bell rang to end the fight a second or two before the referee could count to ten. Any referee would have stopped the fight if there was time left on the clock.

Loughran was a great technician. He had a golden left hand, but he's taking a pocket knife to a sword fight. Liston would have Loughran completely out gunned. Loughran would have to somehow get under or around Sonny’s jab, venture into the danger zone hoping to land something, then quickly get out of dodge before Sonny fired his right hand.

I can not see Loughran winning this fantasy match up. Maybe if Loughran was in a large ring he could go the distance in a losing effort. In all likely hood Liston would knock him out.

Decagon wrote:Liston's reach advantage against the aforementioned fighters:

• Tommy Loughran: 11"
• Billy Conn: 11.5"

In the first place, it's pretty damn tough to box someone with that big of a reach advantage, unless he's one of those tall fighters that likes to mix it up inside, like so many of them. But Liston? He was a master of the outside game.

I guess if you just look at the numbers, their chances don’t look too good, but I tend look a bit beyond that to the styles and skill levels involved. And as I mentioned, I think Liston was a well schooled fighter, with good basic skills, but I think it might be a bit of a stretch to call him a “master of the outside game”.

When Michael Spinks fought Larry Holmes he gave up quite a bit in the size department. Granted, he didn’t give up 11” in reach, but for a skilled boxer, I don’t think there’s much difference between a 5” or an 11” reach advantage. And Spinks used a style of quick bursts of punches followed by clinching or moving away, to many times befuddle Holmes, who I think even at that stage of his career was closer to a “master of the outside game” than Liston ever was. And no that doesn’t prove that Loughran or Conn could beat Liston. In fact I think it would be a tall order for both, but it shouldn’t be hard for anyone with some boxing knowledge to think that the two of them could have given Liston a great deal of trouble, possibly pulling off an upset.

Decagon wrote:This isn't going to be like Pryor-Hearns, you know.

Ahem, I don’t think they ever fought, did they? What are you talking about here?

I think he may have thinking of Leonard, not Pryor.

Anyway, here some more food for thought about Loughran.
He fought almost all the top heavyweights in the early 1930's and should be given credit for it.
He had some mixed results.
He did beat Risko (3 times) Schaaf (twice),Braddock, Baer, Uzcudun, Godoy, and Hamas (twice).

However, he also lost to Godoy, Risko (twice), Nuesel, Carnera, Hamas (twice) King Levinsky, Schaaf, and Sharkey.

This isn't just one or two guys who style gave him trouble. Thats 8 different heavyweights that beat him.
None of them were even close to the ability of Sonny Liston.

I have to disagree with the opinion that a 11 inch reach advantage isn't any difference than a 5 inch reach advantage. I believe that it's a big advantage.
It just doesn't add up that Loughran would give Liston any trouble at all.

pound per pound wrote:

barry wrote:If Bert Whitehurst can take Liston the limit...twice...then an absolutely brilliant technician like Loughran certainly would as well and it would be a fight that Liston would have to use all he had to win, which I think he would have, but it would not be a surprise to see Loughran win on points either!

Whitehurst was saved by the bell from a knockout when Sonny knocked him out of the ring. Whitehurst was stumbling around dazed. The bell rang to end the fight a second or two before the referee could count to ten. Any referee would have stopped the fight if there was time left on the clock.

Loughran was a great technician. He had a golden left hand, but he's taking a pocket knife to a sword fight. Liston would have Loughran completely out gunned. Loughran would have to somehow get under or around Sonny’s jab, venture into the danger zone hoping to land something, then quickly get out of dodge before Sonny fired his right hand.

I can not see Loughran winning this fantasy match up. Maybe if Loughran was in a large ring he could go the distance in a losing effort. In all likely hood Liston would knock him out.

Loughran lost to Carnera for the heavyweight title.

Loughran did well at the start, but Carnera used his superior strength to wear Loughran down, and Tommy had trouble making it to the end.

By the way, Liston had a jab too.

Jack Sharkey knocked Loughran out with a single right hand.

peak 1958 sonny liston KO 6 tommy loughran


machen was a master boxer( i would pick machen over loughran @ HW) and he was still clearly outboxed by liston the whole fight. liston won about 9 rounds out of the 12. this fight should show u liston can go 12 hard rounds and even if he cant the knock the other fighter out, he can keep his composure and box to go the distance. i cant believe people are critisising liston for not stopping machen.

"you cant dont anything when the other fighter is running. "- sonny liston in the AP seattle report following the machen-liston fight.


"it takes two to make a fight, machen wouldnt"- sonny liston


loughran could decide to run and try to survive vs machen, but then liston will completley outbox him the whole way. listons jab, very underated boxing skills, and physical advantages will be too much for loughran. loughran also didnt have the sturdiest chin @ heavyweight. jack sharkey knocked out loughran with one punch and sharkey was nowhere near the class as liston as a puncher. people fail to forget loughran had trouble with size. he was clearly outpointed by primo carnera, one of the worst heavyweight champs of all time. carnera beat loughran cause loughran had trouble with carnera's size and reach. listons reach was almost as long as carneras 84" to 86". liston was not as big as carnera, but this is something to think about. when loughran did finally meet a man of listons reach, he lost(carnera). liston made a career out of beating on great small men like patterson, machen, folley. folley was a small master boxer with an awesome left jab like loughran, liston annihalated him in 3. loughran was also 10-15lb smaller than these guys. u can point out the max baer win, but max baer was very crude and had one of his clown inconsistent nights against loughra. sonny liston had much more boxing skills than max baer, better technique, stronger, and he matched max baer in punching power. I also think in terms of all around punching skills, liston was superior to baer. loughran boxed with his hands low and liked to have a jabbing contest. liston had possibly the greatest HW jab of all time. loughrans hands low is a big no no. i think sonny will eat him alive with the jab. liston IMO would jab loughrans face apart early and sit back waiting for the opening, and when listons strength starts to take its toll on loughran in the clinches and loughran will slow down and sonny will finish him off in the 6th or 7th round. a 180lb one armed fighter is not going to beat a peak sonny liston. i dont care how many wheels hes got. loughran will have to outjab sonny to win. NOT GONNA HAPPEN.


willie reddish( listons trainer) called "jersey joe walcott and sonny liston the strongest heavyweights i have ever seen. liston was the stronger of the two. almost all of listons opponents called liston the strongest. loughran had trouble dealing with big strong men, let alone with the power, skill, physical advantages liston had. people just dont realize sonny liston wasnt just a big man with punching power and a jab. liston had VERY GOOD BOXING SKILLS.

billy conn would do alot better vs liston cause conns faster, more versatile and smooth, more polished, and a better boxer than loughran. but hey thats just my opinion. conn kept his hands up and had somewut more of a modern style than loughran.

but like dec said

Liston was much better at keeping fighters at range than Louis was. Louis relished the opportunity to get inside, while Liston was perfectly comfortable on the outside.

i agree with this. liston was also bigger, stronger, and a had much longer reach than louis. liston at his best was not slow. he is a lot quicker than people think. its just many people only decide to watch liston of the ali fights when liston was rusty, overweight and past his prime rather than the peak late 50s sonny liston. liston had slowed down considerably by the ali fights.


liston will box billy conn and range and which will force billy to come in and try to flurry and this will be billys downfall. liston was too strong, powerful for conn on the inside and liston(unlike lennox) had great inside fighting skills for a big man. liston knocks out conn in mid rounds.


but conn does better than loughran does IMO

barry,


wuts ur opinion on whos better nino valdez or bob baker?

The Scranton Assassin wrote:Anyone ever see this fight? I think it;s still the second fastest ko in a real heavy weight title fight right behind Jeffries 49 sec ko. For all those who say Burns was underskilled and too small to stand a chance against any of the other great heavyies take a look at this fight .its pretty impressive.

Jeffries KO of Jack Finnegan was really just an exhibition. He was in Detroit and needed a victim. Finnegan sole claim to fame was previously being knocked out in 4 rounds by Gus Ruhlin. He was strictly sparring partner material. Some years later when Jeff's pal George Siler was listing Jim's ring record in an article for a Chicago paper, he somehow skipped Finnegan entirely.

On the other hand, Tommy's KO of Jem Roche in Dublin was a legit title defence and the fastest (88 seconds) on record, noted by Robert J. Ripley of Ripley's Believe it or Not.

Cap

I think Baker was the better all-around fighter and had he not had brittle hands he probably would have been even more successful than he was. He was a very hard hitter and had good size, but his hands kept him from any kind of reckless abandon with his fists, which is why his knockout total is what it is, it’s not that he didn’t have the punching power, his hands simply just did not allow him to utilize that power the way most fighters do, so he had to adapt and learn to box, which he adapted very well. His hands were very similar to Ray Actis of the 30s, except again, Baker was more skilled. Valdes came on later in his career, ala' Jersey Joe, and he was a big solid heavyweight with heavy hands, but unless he could land a big shot I think Baker would beat him 10 out of 10 every time out…though in 100 bouts there will be the occasional lucky shot that scores the knockout, so actually Baker would probably win 8 of every 10…they both had pretty good chins so a knockout would be hard to come by unless one just landed a hell of a shot, but both were clearly capable of knocking anyone out!

Cap wrote:Patterson fought the perfect fight against Liston, perfect that is for Liston. If he had boxed Liston the way he later did Chuvalo, there might have been a different ending.

Loughran, at his best, was a brilliant boxer. Liston's jab would never touch him. He would've used his defence the way Ali used his speed, and Liston would quit on his stool.

Cap

?????

Patterson basically slugged with George for 12 straight rounds.

Liston had a pretty quick, consistant, and very long/hard jab. You better believe he'd be able to keep the smaller, much weaker Loughran from mounting any sort of offense, just as he did the just as quick, stronger Eddie Machen.

barry wrote:I think Baker was the better all-around fighter and had he not had brittle hands he probably would have been even more successful than he was. He was a very hard hitter and had good size, but his hands kept him from any kind of reckless abandon with his fists, which is why his knockout total is what it is, it’s not that he didn’t have the punching power, his hands simply just did not allow him to utilize that power the way most fighters do, so he had to adapt and learn to box, which he adapted very well. His hands were very similar to Ray Actis of the 30s, except again, Baker was more skilled. Valdes came on later in his career, ala' Jersey Joe, and he was a big solid heavyweight with heavy hands, but unless he could land a big shot I think Baker would beat him 10 out of 10 every time out…though in 100 bouts there will be the occasional lucky shot that scores the knockout, so actually Baker would probably win 8 of every 10…they both had pretty good chins so a knockout would be hard to come by unless one just landed a hell of a shot, but both were clearly capable of knocking anyone out!

thanx barry great explanation. i tend to agree too with ur points. i always believed baker was the more skilled of the two. too bad since valdes gets all the credit today.




barry, have u done any studying on clarence henry? wuts ur thoughts on him? he has a very impressive record including blowouts over satterfield and baker. he was being very highly thought of in 1952 by the papers. any thoughts on him? is it true by the hurricane jackson fight he was going blind which is the reason he retired?

i have done a bit of studying on henry so i wanted to know ur opinions on him barry

I think Henry was a solid heavyweight who could have accomplished more than he did. He was a very "hot and cold" fighter. One fight he would look absolutely fantastic and the next he would look dull and uninterested. He had very heavy hands, but he did have eye problems, which if I am not mistaken started around the late 1940s and which kept him out of the ring for several months in 1952, which by that time he was pretty much on his last go as a fighter. Many considered him to be one of the harder punching heavyweights of the time along with Marciano, Earl Walls, Tommy Gomez and Bob Satterfield.