BoxRec

lvlarc_uk wrote:

stujones wrote: If he beats Taylor or Wright, it will be always be argued that he beat a bulk up middle (or light middle in Wrights case).

Before the Tarver fight, Hopkins built his whole legacy on beating 2 bulked up fighters, and it wasn't long before that untill he got the respect he deserved. So that shouldn't be the case. Not to mention Taylor is naturally bigger than Joe, 6'1 and comes to fight at 170+ lbs.

jamesmcdonnell wrote: McGuigan got in there because of his huge popularity on both sides of the atlantic, something which cannot be said of Joe, but I think his long tenure as champion and his style, which has produced some pretty conclusive wins, will be enough.

True & it's not like the yanks are ever going to warm to Joe when he keeps beating up their champs They only truely appreciated Lewis after he retired.


I feel if lesser fighters have made it into HOF, then Joe should walk in no probs. Though I'd like to see him beat Kessler (if he gets past Beyer) then Taylor to seal the deal, which I think he can and will.

To be fair to Hopkins though, Trinidad did look impressive on his middleweight debut - didn't look bulked up. And DLH did also "beat" the current WBA champion at Middleweight before fighting Hopkins. Yes, DLH looked crap but Trinidad was a big betting favourite and looked the bomb disposing a decent natural middleweight in relentless fashion.

If Taylor fought and beat a Kessler or Beyer before hand then great. I'd like him to prove himself a solid Super Middleweight before fighting Joe. An often overlooked Hamed opponent was Vuyani Bungu - he was an outstanding Super Bantam, but cause he never fought at world class at 126 before Hamed people said "bulked up Bantamweight".

liamlion wrote:

hitman_hatton1 wrote:he just needs to "pad the resume" from here on in.

You are joking, arent you?

i've explained the reason why i already have calzaghe in hall of fame.

hitman_hatton1 wrote:

liamlion wrote:

hitman_hatton1 wrote:he just needs to "pad the resume" from here on in.

You are joking, arent you?

i've explained the reason why i already have calzaghe in hall of fame.

Maybe in the South-Wales HOF.

give Hopkins a break. Tito had Ko power at middle, and Hopkins destroyed him. DLH is supposed to be "the most accmplished fighter of this generation", with outstanding achievements at 154, and ppl have the balls to say he didn't have any biz at middle. my arse. DLH was in good shape for that fight, sure he looked bad when underprepared vs Sturm (totally underestimated him). But who can look good vs Sturm? Hopkins, 40 yo, bone dry, uses superior timing to take DLH out in a chess match. ppl always find a way to demean Hopkins, even after he goes and pans the best light heavy in the world off! I think a lot of ppl are totaly hypocrites. same ppl who try to slag off Hopkins rate guys like Holmes and Pedroza highly. Neither of those two had Hopkins command of ring craft and psychology, ad neither beat better opponents, yet they get respect cos a) they're oldies and have been canonised and b) they had tougness and longevity. some real ungrateful sods on these boards.

Interesting, Hopkins went after everyone of worth at his weight. He completely unified his division, undisputed, lineal, holds world record for # title defenses. Did Jones even go after Michalczewski? Did he fornicate, not to mention he ducked Tarver for 3 years and then lost 2 of 3 to him. Yet ppl get all bleary eyed over Jones, cos he beat a horrendously drained Toney and exploited his position with HBO, and was flashy - flashy being the be all and end all for so many.

Who's giving Hopkins a bad time? I understand your a big Hopkins fan, but I was merely making a point that no-one could make a valid argument against Joe for beating a blown up fighter in Taylor (although Taylor is bigger than Joe come fight night) without demeaning Hopkins legacy too.

Is there something wrong with that? I really don't understand why you have a problem with that, as ODH and Trinidad will always be remember as great welterweights.

lvlarc_uk wrote:Who's giving Hopkins a bad time? I understand your a big Hopkins fan, but I was merely making a point that no-one could make a valid argument against Joe for beating a blown up fighter in Taylor (although Taylor is bigger than Joe come fight night) without demeaning Hopkins legacy too.

Still making useless posts I see.

hitman_hatton1 wrote:

liamlion wrote:

hitman_hatton1 wrote:he just needs to "pad the resume" from here on in.

You are joking, arent you?

i've explained the reason why i already have calzaghe in hall of fame.

Regardless of whether you think Calzaghe 'qualifies' for the Hall of Fame, youre seriously calling for Calzaghe to pad his record more?? Is this list of supposed 'world-title challengers' not enough padding?...

* Mger Mkrtchian
* Branko Sobot
* Evans Ashira
* Juan Carlos Ferreyra
* Kabary Salem
* Rick Thornberry
* David Starie
* Mario Veit
* Will McIntyre
* Miguel Angel Jimenez
* Tocker Pubwill

How much more padding do you want??

It is a proper disgrace that British fans are not only putting up with shite from Fwank Warren in terms of substandard world-championship boxing bouts, but are actually demanding it!!

liamlion wrote:

hitman_hatton1 wrote:

liamlion wrote: You are joking, arent you?

i've explained the reason why i already have calzaghe in hall of fame.

Regardless of whether you think Calzaghe 'qualifies' for the Hall of Fame, youre seriously calling for Calzaghe to pad his record more?? Is this list of supposed 'world-title challengers' not enough padding?...

* Mger Mkrtchian
* Branko Sobot
* Evans Ashira
* Juan Carlos Ferreyra
* Kabary Salem
* Rick Thornberry
* David Starie
* Mario Veit
* Will McIntyre
* Miguel Angel Jimenez
* Tocker Pubwill

How much more padding do you want??

It is a proper disgrace that British fans are not only putting up with shite from Fwank Warren in terms of substandard world-championship boxing bouts, but are actually demanding it!!

liamlion wrote:

hitman_hatton1 wrote:

liamlion wrote: You are joking, arent you?

i've explained the reason why i already have calzaghe in hall of fame.

Regardless of whether you think Calzaghe 'qualifies' for the Hall of Fame, youre seriously calling for Calzaghe to pad his record more?? Is this list of supposed 'world-title challengers' not enough padding?...

* Mger Mkrtchian
* Branko Sobot
* Evans Ashira
* Juan Carlos Ferreyra
* Kabary Salem
* Rick Thornberry
* David Starie
* Mario Veit
* Will McIntyre
* Miguel Angel Jimenez
* Tocker Pubwill

How much more padding do you want??

It is a proper disgrace that British fans are not only putting up with shite from Fwank Warren in terms of substandard world-championship boxing bouts, but are actually demanding it!!

I agree he should and will be fighting more big names now, but every fighter pads their record with standard title defences. You will find world class fighters in between standard shitty defences. You could delve into LEGENDS records and find poor defenses. Evangelista, Coopman, Lubbers anyone? List goes on.

Viet and Mger Mcrithcianananana have excelled recently with good wins over Brahemer & Chanet.

liamlion wrote:

hitman_hatton1 wrote:

liamlion wrote: You are joking, arent you?

i've explained the reason why i already have calzaghe in hall of fame.

Regardless of whether you think Calzaghe 'qualifies' for the Hall of Fame, youre seriously calling for Calzaghe to pad his record more?? Is this list of supposed 'world-title challengers' not enough padding?...

* Mger Mkrtchian
* Branko Sobot
* Evans Ashira
* Juan Carlos Ferreyra
* Kabary Salem
* Rick Thornberry
* David Starie
* Mario Veit
* Will McIntyre
* Miguel Angel Jimenez
* Tocker Pubwill

How much more padding do you want??

It is a proper disgrace that British fans are not only putting up with shite from Fwank Warren in terms of substandard world-championship boxing bouts, but are actually demanding it!!

Great post my sentiments exactly. Calzaghe has wasted most of the best years of his career padding hid record, it should be elite level fights only from here on in.

you've just wasted ya time on that big post.

that's not what i meant by "pad the resume".

i meant a few more big names to fill things out a little.

u dipstick liam.

hitman_hatton1 wrote:you've just wasted ya time on that big post.

that's not what i meant by "pad the resume".

i meant a few more big names to fill things out a little.

u dipstick liam.

My apologies Hitman. Its just I get a wee bit frustrated on the subject of Joe Calzaghe's career.

I know its the old thing of 'ifs and buts', but I genuinely feel that if Joe had, had a bit more faith in his ability, and had a manager/promoter who was prepared to gamble a bit more - Calzaghe could have been one of the most decorated World Champions to come out of Britain.

It has to be said Calzaghe's career has been a disappointment - regardless of the duration of his reign and the many WBO defences. Unfortunately Joe Calzaghe has not fulfilled his potential.

liamlion wrote:

hitman_hatton1 wrote:you've just wasted ya time on that big post.

that's not what i meant by "pad the resume".

i meant a few more big names to fill things out a little.

u dipstick liam.

My apologies Hitman. Its just I get a wee bit frustrated on the subject of Joe Calzaghe's career.

I know its the old thing of 'ifs and buts', but I genuinely feel that if Joe had a bit more faith in his abilities, and had a manager/promoter who was prepared to gamble a bit more - Calzaghe could have been one of the most decorated World Champions to come out of Britain.

It has to be said Calzaghe's career has been a disappointment - regardless of the duration of his reign and the many WBO defences. Unfortunately Joe Calzaghe has not fulfilled his potential.

i've always agreed with the criticisms about calzaghe's career. he's under achieved plain and simple.

he showed how much talent he has against lacy and he's been wasting it by fighting subpar opponents nearly all the way over the last 8 yrs.

he could have forced a roy jones fight by going up to light heavy and getting no1 with a sanctioning body. instead of that he did fornicate all and stayed defending his wbollocks title.

taxi for calzaghe.

lvlarc_uk wrote:

stujones wrote: If he beats Taylor or Wright, it will be always be argued that he beat a bulk up middle (or light middle in Wrights case).

Before the Tarver fight, Hopkins built his whole legacy on beating 2 bulked up fighters, and it wasn't long before that untill he got the respect he deserved. So that shouldn't be the case. Not to mention Taylor is naturally bigger than Joe, 6'1 and comes to fight at 170+ lbs.

jamesmcdonnell wrote: McGuigan got in there because of his huge popularity on both sides of the atlantic, something which cannot be said of Joe, but I think his long tenure as champion and his style, which has produced some pretty conclusive wins, will be enough.

True & it's not like the yanks are ever going to warm to Joe when he keeps beating up their champs They only truely appreciated Lewis after he retired.

james makes an excellent point about mcguigan being hugely popular in the U.S & there are GOOD REASONS for that!!

1. barry won the highly regarded wba title ON U.S. TV vs eusebio pedroza---widely regarded as the best FW champ at the time with 19 successful defenses!!

2. barry's 1st defense was also on U.S. TV---an impressive tko win over highly regarded american bernard taylor (whose only blemish was a 15-round draw with pedroza---the only 1 of pedroza's 19 defenses that eusebio DIDNT WIN!!)

3. even barry's subsequent loss to stevie cruz was 1986's FIGHT OF THE YEAR & it was widely acknowledged that the oppressive heat had much more affect on barry than on texan cruz!!

the lacy win got joe lots of respect in the U.S. but was basically his 1st significant fight on U.S. TV...so i believe a win over any of the current big 3 americans (wright, taylor, hopkins) would clearly put him over the threshhold in the international HOF...tarver's loss removed him from the equation & RJJ is too far gone to do joe any good+b-hop will probably stay retired!!

so the best path for calzaghe short of wright or taylor would be a step up to LH for a win over an adamek(highly regarded) or a PAIR of wins over relatively unknown, untested euros like kessler or erdei. altho clinton woods is easily on par with erdei a domestic win over woods in U.K. probably wouldnt do as much for his international rep as beating a non-brit!! and international wins do count for more in INTERNATIONAL HOF, especially for fighters based in smaller countries like britain!!

So to sum up, fight on USA TV & spot in IHOF is sealed. OK. It's not where you fight, but who you beat. Most Americans NEVER leave their country to fight...infact Hopkins only fight off USA soil, he got knocked down twice and fought to a draw.

Yes it would be nice to see him fight in Las Vegas, but he can sell 30K+ plus tickets fighting here, and what better place than Millennium Stadium?

I think we'll see him fight overseas though sometime next year, after his "huge" fight due to take place in September.

lvlarc_uk wrote:So to sum up, fight on USA TV & spot in IHOF is sealed. OK. It's not where you fight, but who you beat. Most Americans NEVER leave their country to fight...infact Hopkins only fight off USA soil, he got knocked down twice and fought to a draw.

Yes it would be nice to see him fight in Las Vegas, but he can sell 30K+ plus tickets fighting here, and what better place than Millennium Stadium?

I think we'll see him fight overseas though sometime next year, after his "huge" fight due to take place in September.

man!! talk about jumping to the wrong conclusion!!

james pointed out that HOFer mcguigan was hugely popular on BOTH sides of the pond & i said it was because he fought the best FW world champion on US tv & defended in impressive fashion against an UNBEATEN challenger whose only blemish was draw vs the same pedroza in the only defense PEDROZA DIDNT WIN!! also on US tv...

the fact that all you got out of that was "fight on US TV & a spot in HOF is sealed" only proves your own intellectual dyslexia...or maybe i should give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you read my statement correctly but twisted it in your mind before spewing it out onto your keyboard, which would be INTELLECTUAL DISHONESTY...i'm not sure which is worse!!

also, what point is there in fighting outside the country, when you live in the country where 95% of the top fighters either fight or HOPE to fight...ricky hatton INVITED HIMSELF to america & if joe calzaghe wants to increase his chances of being an international superstar & HOFer, he would be very wise to follow suit!! but then ricky hatton has always seemed a way more ambitious guy who sets much higher goals than his countryman calzaghe anyway!!

He needs to beat a couple of world class fighters at HIS weight or above (not below) in their own back yards.

liamlion wrote:

hitman_hatton1 wrote:

liamlion wrote: You are joking, arent you?

i've explained the reason why i already have calzaghe in hall of fame.

Regardless of whether you think Calzaghe 'qualifies' for the Hall of Fame, youre seriously calling for Calzaghe to pad his record more?? Is this list of supposed 'world-title challengers' not enough padding?...

* Mger Mkrtchian
* Branko Sobot
* Evans Ashira
* Juan Carlos Ferreyra
* Kabary Salem
* Rick Thornberry
* David Starie
* Mario Veit
* Will McIntyre
* Miguel Angel Jimenez
* Tocker Pubwill

How much more padding do you want??

It is a proper disgrace that British fans are not only putting up with shite from Fwank Warren in terms of substandard world-championship boxing bouts, but are actually demanding it!!

Veit's underated but the rest are easy defences but every champ has done it so whats the big deal? Mger Mkrtchian is now European champion too since that loss.

Shoutout, theres been more significant wins than Lacy. What about a more prime Reid and other former champs like Brewer, Mitchell, Eubank and Woodhall? Just theres never been big names in Super Middle.

Other than Reid he's raped all who he's fought too.

There should be no HOF is it's US then.

ricky hatton INVITED HIMSELF to america & if joe calzaghe wants to increase his chances of being an international superstar & HOFer, he would be very wise to follow suit!!

Doesn't matter what ground you fight on anyway though and most Americans refuse to travel as well.

Max Molyneux wrote:Veit's underated but the rest are easy defences but every champ has done it so whats the big deal?

To be honest, Viet isnt underated he is shite. But anyway after Calzaghe knocks his block-off in the first round, there is no way that 4 years later Calzaghe should not be lining up to fight him again.

I appreciate every champ has some shite defences on their record, however it would appear that Calzaghe has fought more shitty mandatories than most and even worse, it appears Calzaghe is going back through them all!

Max Molyneux wrote: What about a more prime Reid and other former champs like Brewer, Mitchell, Eubank and Woodhall? Just theres never been big names in Super Middle.

I agree that those are decent opposition, however do you notice the common denominator amongst those names?...Not one of them was a reigning and defending World Champion when they fought Calzaghe. Someone else had already put a dent in them and taken their title!

Jeff Lacy was the first reigning and defending World Champion Joe Calzaghe has ever faced...well after 18 defences surely that is the least you would expect from a 'potential' Hall of Famer!

lvlarc_uk wrote:So to sum up, fight on USA TV & spot in IHOF is sealed. OK. It's not where you fight, but who you beat.

I agree, and to become a HOFer he needs to beat a couple of very strong opponents who don't look taylor-made for him.

As I said earlier, he has a good chance to achive this, but probably not with this manger.

liamlion wrote:

hitman_hatton1 wrote:

liamlion wrote: You are joking, arent you?

i've explained the reason why i already have calzaghe in hall of fame.

Regardless of whether you think Calzaghe 'qualifies' for the Hall of Fame, youre seriously calling for Calzaghe to pad his record more?? Is this list of supposed 'world-title challengers' not enough padding?...

* Mger Mkrtchian
* Branko Sobot
* Evans Ashira
* Juan Carlos Ferreyra
* Kabary Salem
* Rick Thornberry
* David Starie
* Mario Veit
* Will McIntyre
* Miguel Angel Jimenez
* Tocker Pubwill

How much more padding do you want??

It is a proper disgrace that British fans are not only putting up with shite from Fwank Warren in terms of substandard world-championship boxing bouts, but are actually demanding it!!

those guys are well balanced by these guys
Eubank
Reid
Woodhall
Brewer
Mitchell
Lacy
Sheika

also, Starie is respectable if not world class (win over Woods) and Mkrtchian - who did Mkrtchian beat in his last fight & tell me MM isn't world class

it's a fairly even good/bad list

regardless, JC has had some good night, some awful nights, and some fights that don't deserve to be world title fights. true. but whatever we think, it's given him the learning curve he needed from being a top domestic talent who beat Delaney to a world class guy who smashed up Lacy. whatever we think, it's up to Calzaghe now if he wants to be in the hall of fame. he can get the big fight with the Kessler-Beyer unification winner, he can maybe tempt Winky or Taylor, or he can bugger about

I think a lot of us are looking at things in american terms too much. the land of conspicuous consumption, of a culture of instant gratification. in america if you;re not world class you're a bum. there's no real market for 'domestic' fights and there aren't traditional titles at various levels that really give ppl smething to fight for. in america, a promising fighter has to go for a world title in his 2_ pro fight. things are slower over here and in germany. if a guy wins a world title early, the fighter and the title have to be looked after a bit, until they;re ready to risk it. if a promoter like warren gets his hands on a thoroughbread, he's not going to wear it out by taking wrong fights @ the wrong time.

viciousmaussa wrote:...Mkrtchian - who did Mkrtchian beat in his last fight & tell me MM isn't world class.

Good question! Who did Mger Mkrtchian beat in his last fight? Are you suggesting that Mger Mkrtchian beating Jackson Chanet in 11 rounds, somehow means that Mkrtchian is now world-class?

viciousmaussa wrote:those guys are well balanced by these guys
Eubank
Reid
Woodhall
Brewer
Mitchell
Lacy
Sheika

I dont agree, but nevermind. However we are neglecting a third list of fighters. That is, those who Calzaghe realistically could and should have fought, but for whatever reasons didnt:

* Glenn Johnson
* Sven Ottke
* Roy Jones Jr
* Markus Beyer
* Bernard Hopkins
* Clinton Woods
* Darius Michalczewski

When we consider this list, surely Calzaghe's career is not so 'well balanced'?

shoutout2u wrote:

lvlarc_uk wrote:So to sum up, fight on USA TV & spot in IHOF is sealed. OK. It's not where you fight, but who you beat. Most Americans NEVER leave their country to fight...infact Hopkins only fight off USA soil, he got knocked down twice and fought to a draw.

Yes it would be nice to see him fight in Las Vegas, but he can sell 30K+ plus tickets fighting here, and what better place than Millennium Stadium?

I think we'll see him fight overseas though sometime next year, after his "huge" fight due to take place in September.

man!! talk about jumping to the wrong conclusion!!

Well what do you expect, you did slip in US TV in that post 5 times...

Max Molyneux wrote:Doesn't matter what ground you fight on anyway though and most Americans refuse to travel as well.

carlos monzon was one of the best middleweights ever and he only had 1 fight in the states.

calzaghe deserves his place in the hall on current achievements. he's still not fulfilled his full potential though.