WHICH FOES WOULD BE BEST TO LOCK UP HOF SPOT FOR CALZAGHE?

nickd · Post by **nickd** » 21 Jun 2006, 19:26

Max Molyneux wrote:Don't need to find out. 8)

I believed Calzaghe could do it before Lacy and he did!

Only the prime talented Robin Reid has ever troubled him. 8)

Suprising as it sounds but if Reid had beaten Lacy and fought Calzaghe, I would of supported Reid. Shame he's past it.

Oh yeah read Joe admits to being troubled by counter punchers.

Reid never really had it to be past it. Plenty of comments about that on the Tarver v Lacy thread Reid is vastly overrated. His title reign was average at best.

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 21 Jun 2006, 19:32

nickd wrote:
Max Molyneux wrote:Don't need to find out. 8)

I believed Calzaghe could do it before Lacy and he did!

Only the prime talented Robin Reid has ever troubled him. 8)

Suprising as it sounds but if Reid had beaten Lacy and fought Calzaghe, I would of supported Reid. Shame he's past it.

Oh yeah read Joe admits to being troubled by counter punchers.
Reid never really had it to be past it. Plenty of comments about that on the Tarver v Lacy thread Reid is vastly overrated. His title reign was average at best.

The Reid who went to Italy would of beat the one dimensional Lacy. The guy struggled with Omar Sheika and I was right about Lacy the whole time.

shoutout · Post by **shoutout** » 21 Jun 2006, 19:45

lvlarc_uk wrote:That's why I said providing Taylor gets a fight in at 168 first. Would you agree that Calzaghe beating Taylor at 168 would enhance his legacy?

You seem to be ignoring the strange fact that Taylor is bigger than Joe anyhow.

thanks for bringing this circular argument back to reality!!

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 21 Jun 2006, 19:47

Lvarc_uk I know Taylor is big, but I doubt he walks around with 14 stone(196lbs to ya Yanks.) like Joe says he does.

shoutout · Post by **shoutout** » 21 Jun 2006, 19:51

lvlarc_uk wrote:It can be argued that Jermain has the best resumee within last 2 years than any other fighter.

Fighters go for smaller fighters to enhance their legacy all the time. Most recently Oscar > PBF.

But in this case Taylor could make 168 VERY comfortably. He was 170 against Wright.

In contrast, the "natural bigger" thing says rather little. Colojanni was naturally much bigger (at least in the way you define it - height and reach) than Beyer. Did Beyer gain props from beating this "naturally bigger" man? Hmmmm......
Apples with oranges & all that....you are missing something, Taylor is a P4P'r One of the best fighters in the WORLD today, Who is Colojanni, ah right he's a guy with 2 KO's, yet still gave Beyer trouble

If Taylor was to move up to 168, which he could do comfortably, and fight ANY top 10 fighter, then a fight with Joe would be big, as he already has the talent to hang with the best.

relax homie!! you've won the argument...you cannot REASON with a guy who uses colajanni is analogous fashion with jermain taylor!! the closest comparison would be that colajanni MIGHT be top 1000 P4P!!

shoutout · Post by **shoutout** » 21 Jun 2006, 20:01

Max Molyneux wrote:
nickd wrote:
Max Molyneux wrote:Don't need to find out. 8)

I believed Calzaghe could do it before Lacy and he did!

Only the prime talented Robin Reid has ever troubled him. 8)

Suprising as it sounds but if Reid had beaten Lacy and fought Calzaghe, I would of supported Reid. Shame he's past it.

Oh yeah read Joe admits to being troubled by counter punchers.
Reid never really had it to be past it. Plenty of comments about that on the Tarver v Lacy thread Reid is vastly overrated. His title reign was average at best.
The Reid who went to Italy would of beat the one dimensional Lacy. The guy struggled with Omar Sheika and I was right about Lacy the whole time.

so i guess the reid who got crushed by lacy was an impostor!!

yeah, i know...reid was past his peak!!

robin reid peaked at the 1992 OLYMPICS & was a washout in the pro ranks!!

nickd · Post by **nickd** » 21 Jun 2006, 20:02

Max Molyneux wrote:
nickd wrote:
Max Molyneux wrote:Don't need to find out. 8)

I believed Calzaghe could do it before Lacy and he did!

Only the prime talented Robin Reid has ever troubled him. 8)

Suprising as it sounds but if Reid had beaten Lacy and fought Calzaghe, I would of supported Reid. Shame he's past it.

Oh yeah read Joe admits to being troubled by counter punchers.
Reid never really had it to be past it. Plenty of comments about that on the Tarver v Lacy thread Reid is vastly overrated. His title reign was average at best.
The Reid who went to Italy would of beat the one dimensional Lacy. The guy struggled with Omar Sheika and I was right about Lacy the whole time.

I dont think Reid would ever have beaten Lacy seriously. He's always had an abysmal workrate. Winning in Italy was an achievement but Nardiello was a renowned choker to be fair.

Reid had a pretty close fight with one dimensional Wharton, Lacy is better than Wharton ever was. Watch Reid v Malinga or Cherifi seriously.

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 21 Jun 2006, 20:17

Would you consider Sheika as good as the Reid who was WBC champion though? He gave Lacy some problems and hurt him too, just Lacy's got a good chin although I would of just counted him out when Joe had him down to save him from further beating.

If Vanderpool had the conditioning then he could of kept on winning rounds like he was early.

Fair or not Naridiello was a champ so it's a decent win with one of the main belts.

Lacy's one dimensional himself though and is too reliant on his power. Even in the Amatuers Lacy was getting outboxed by guys like Brian Magee.

I'll watch the fights you mention If I can find em.

nickd · Post by **nickd** » 21 Jun 2006, 20:26

Max Molyneux wrote:Would you consider Sheika as good as the Reid who was WBC champion though? He gave Lacy some problems and hurt him too, just Lacy's got a good chin although I would of just counted him out when Joe had him down to save him from further beating.

If Vanderpool had the conditioning then he could of kept on winning rounds like he was early.

Fair or not Naridiello was a champ so it's a decent win with one of the main belts.

Lacy's one dimensional himself though and is too reliant on his power. Even in the Amatuers Lacy was getting outboxed by guys like Brian Magee.

I'll watch the fights you mention If I can find em.

No offence mate but I don't see how you can comment if you haven't seen many Reid fights. Reid struggled to look good against Cherifi who was a pretty mediocre Middleweight so Lacy would always have manhandled him. Reid was never that good simple as that. Anyone who has seen fights throughout his career will allude to that.

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 21 Jun 2006, 20:28

nickd wrote:
Max Molyneux wrote:Would you consider Sheika as good as the Reid who was WBC champion though? He gave Lacy some problems and hurt him too, just Lacy's got a good chin although I would of just counted him out when Joe had him down to save him from further beating.

If Vanderpool had the conditioning then he could of kept on winning rounds like he was early.

Fair or not Naridiello was a champ so it's a decent win with one of the main belts.

Lacy's one dimensional himself though and is too reliant on his power. Even in the Amatuers Lacy was getting outboxed by guys like Brian Magee.

I'll watch the fights you mention If I can find em.
No offence mate but I don't see how you can comment if you haven't seen many Reid fights. Reid struggled to look good against Cherifi who was a pretty mediocre Middleweight so Lacy would always have manhandled him. Reid was never that good simple as that. Anyone who has seen fights throughout his career will allude to that.

In that post the only comment I said was that would you consider Sheika as good as the Reid who was WBC champion.

nickd · Post by **nickd** » 21 Jun 2006, 20:31

Max Molyneux wrote:
nickd wrote:
Max Molyneux wrote:Would you consider Sheika as good as the Reid who was WBC champion though? He gave Lacy some problems and hurt him too, just Lacy's got a good chin although I would of just counted him out when Joe had him down to save him from further beating.

If Vanderpool had the conditioning then he could of kept on winning rounds like he was early.

Fair or not Naridiello was a champ so it's a decent win with one of the main belts.

Lacy's one dimensional himself though and is too reliant on his power. Even in the Amatuers Lacy was getting outboxed by guys like Brian Magee.

I'll watch the fights you mention If I can find em.
No offence mate but I don't see how you can comment if you haven't seen many Reid fights. Reid struggled to look good against Cherifi who was a pretty mediocre Middleweight so Lacy would always have manhandled him. Reid was never that good simple as that. Anyone who has seen fights throughout his career will allude to that.
In that post the only comment I said was that would you consider Sheika as good as the Reid who was WBC champion.

Sheika would have given him a good run for his money.

shoutout · Post by **shoutout** » 22 Jun 2006, 03:50

stujones wrote:1) Hopkins
2) O Neil Bell - its seems to be "fashionable" to jump two weight devisions.
3) Taylor

Rest along way off - would have to rely on beating someone before Joe.

Yes Kessler is good, but has done little more than left hook lacy.

The winner of a potential Adameck vs Erdei fight would stand Joe in good stead.

bell would be a great boost for joe's HOF entrance, but that's a 32# increase (compared to b-hop's 15#)...i honestly dont think joe could take bell's CW power shots!!

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 22 Jun 2006, 06:17

here's my 2 pence worth. Winky or Taylor will help him get in the HOF more because they are known to American scribes. Most of the IBHOF voters seem to be American.

But they will both be middleweights moving up. I, personally, would be more inclined to give Joe Calzaghe credit for beating a genuine peer! He's beaten the tough punchers, the credible boxers who'd just lost their world titles. How about a natural super middle, in his prime, who can really box. And mark my words, Kessler can box every bit as well as Winky and Taylor.

If Kessler gets by Beyer, Kessler will have beaten some very respectable opposition. Lucas was Not shot. Kessler just wouldn't let him in the fight. It was the same with Manuel Siaca. Siaca is a good fighter, but couldn't get past the jab and was busted up by it as was Lucas. Siaca beat Mundine, too. We know undine's good and Kessler went to Oz and beat him. I'm not saying these guys are perfect, but he also beat JC Green (former m/w titlist), Thobela (former top class 135-lber, former s/m titlist) -this is very good form.

Lucas admitted that Kessler wasn't far behind Roy Jones in terms of quality.

if Kessler beats Beyer, he's the ONLY man to fight. How can you have a WBO/IBF champ and a WBA/WBC champ in the same division?

Beyer is good. Somewhat fragile. But very tidy southpaw. Wins over Sheika. Green II, Sanavia II are very good.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 22 Jun 2006, 06:37

Lucas was shot, he had a long term illness which had kept him out of the ring a lot over the previous 3 years, I forget what it was now, was it thyroid? Kessler's performance was good, but he wasn't facing much in there.

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 22 Jun 2006, 08:23

jamesmcdonnell wrote:Lucas was shot, he had a long term illness which had kept him out of the ring a lot over the previous 3 years, I forget what it was now, was it thyroid? Kessler's performance was good, but he wasn't facing much in there.

Kessler doesn't allow his opponents to do anything. Just cos Lucas couldn't get his shots off, doesmn't mean he was necessarily shot. Kessler wouldn't let the guy anywhere near him. It was the sam with Siaca, who was in his prime. It's like with Hopkins-Tarver. Hopkins actively, systematically took away al Tarver's weapons - so naturally tarver was shot, weight drained & doped

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 22 Jun 2006, 09:17

Tarver was almost certainly weight drained, but that's not to say Hopkins wouldn't have beaten him. It's not like Kessler did anything amazingly revolutionary in there, all he was doing was throwing the jab and moving in and out of range.

Also, Lucas simply was never that good, certainly not on Calzaghe's level.

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 22 Jun 2006, 09:18

Max Molyneux wrote:Don't need to find out. 8)

He doesn't need to do anything to satisfy you, obviously, but in order to convince the wider boxing audience he's a lot to do.

I believed Calzaghe could do it before Lacy and he did!

So did I. I never considered Lacy one of the strongest opponetns at 168. Especially not for Calzaghe.

Only the prime talented Robin Reid has ever troubled him. 8)

But not only because Reid was talented, but also because Reid fights a style Calzaghe doesn't like - and Warren has avoided in subsequent fights.

But we've been through this a few times...

P

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 22 Jun 2006, 09:20

shoutout2u wrote: relax homie!! you've won the argument...P4P!!

Btw, for me it's not about "winning arguments". If lvlarc_uk thinks Calzaghe would gain much by adding middleweights to his already shaky record, fine with me, and I hope for him believing this will make him happy.

I disagree though - and when I see a perceived flaw in an argument that interests me I point this out. I wouldn't expect from you guys to act any differenlty.

Cheers, P

fried bread · Post by **fried bread** » 22 Jun 2006, 09:56

jamesmcdonnell wrote:Tarver was almost certainly weight drained, but that's not to say Hopkins wouldn't have beaten him. It's not like Kessler did anything amazingly revolutionary in there, all he was doing was throwing the jab and moving in and out of range.

Also, Lucas simply was never that good, certainly not on Calzaghe's level.

How can you tell? Tarver had to lose a lot of weight for Glen Johnson I, and everyone had Tarver winning it. Look at Johnson-Jones - Tarver was a fat lump of smeg sitting in thre crowd. That wasnt so long before TarverL12Johnson.

Tarver has a stamina problem in the late stages of fights. But that didn't decide the fight. Hopkins was doing beautiful moves in there from the opening bell. It was a battle for positioning. Tarver trying to cut off the ring and Hopkins deftly sliding away and countering for 12 rounds. Hopkins won the tactical game and made a fool of him.

Lucas is solid, he beat Beyer easily.

shoutout · Post by **shoutout** » 22 Jun 2006, 17:22

pundit wrote:
shoutout2u wrote: relax homie!! you've won the argument...P4P!!

Btw, for me it's not about "winning arguments". If lvlarc_uk thinks Calzaghe would gain much by adding middleweights to his already shaky record, fine with me, and I hope for him believing this will make him happy.

I disagree though - and when I see a perceived flaw in an argument that interests me I point this out. I wouldn't expect from you guys to act any differenlty.

Cheers, P

i've had many heated cyber-debates with lv...uk & just wanted to let him know i agreed with him on this one...for calzaghe to find 2 guys like taylor and/or wright would do much more for his HOF credentials, considering both are top 5 P4Pers and kessler is basically unknown outside of PARTS OF EUROPE & has done little to establish himself as an international force in boxing...so it's not just about weight---it's about quality & especially if joe was to drop to 160 or 164 for either taylor or wright...it would do WAY MORE for his HOF bid than kessler!!

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 22 Jun 2006, 17:24

shoutout2u wrote:
pundit wrote:
shoutout2u wrote: relax homie!! you've won the argument...P4P!!

Btw, for me it's not about "winning arguments". If lvlarc_uk thinks Calzaghe would gain much by adding middleweights to his already shaky record, fine with me, and I hope for him believing this will make him happy.

I disagree though - and when I see a perceived flaw in an argument that interests me I point this out. I wouldn't expect from you guys to act any differenlty.

Cheers, P
i've had many heated cyber-debates with lv...uk & just wanted to let him know i agreed with him on this one...for calzaghe to find 2 guys like taylor and/or wright would do much more for his HOF credentials, considering both are top 5 P4Pers and kessler is basically unknown outside of PARTS OF EUROPE & has done little to establish himself as an international force in boxing...so it's not just about weight---it's about quality & especially if joe was to drop to 160 or 164 for either taylor or wright...it would do WAY MORE for his HOF bid than kessler!!

Fine. I disagree, have have pointed out why. So let's agree to disagree.
Cheers, P

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 22 Jun 2006, 19:09

pundit wrote:
Max Molyneux wrote:Don't need to find out. 8)
He doesn't need to do anything to satisfy you, obviously, but in order to convince the wider boxing audience he's a lot to do.

I believed Calzaghe could do it before Lacy and he did!
So did I. I never considered Lacy one of the strongest opponetns at 168. Especially not for Calzaghe.

Only the prime talented Robin Reid has ever troubled him. 8)
But not only because Reid was talented, but also because Reid fights a style Calzaghe doesn't like - and Warren has avoided in subsequent fights.

But we've been through this a few times...
P

Kessler needs Calzaghe more than Calzaghe needs him. Especially to make a name for himself and to get credit.

Only the fans who like to criticise too much think that about Joe needed Kessler. I'd like to see it though for 3 belts.

I have no doubt he'd beat Kessler either.

People here should listen to Duke Mac Kenzie next time too. :P

Lucas is solid, he beat Beyer easily.

After the Beyer fight Lucas was starting to slide after Green destroyed him and that was 3 years ago.

Hopkins only had it easy with Tarver because Tarver has no workrate so Hop could afford the early rounds unlike with fitter fighters like Taylor, although Taylor tired out a little.

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 22 Jun 2006, 19:23

Max Molyneux wrote:Kessler needs Calzaghe more than Calzaghe needs him. Especially to make a name for himself and to get credit.

Calzaghe needs Kessler (or better: the winner of Kessler vs. Beyer) to establish himself as THE champion at 168. A precondition for HOF status, really.

Kessler will built his reputation further by beating Beyer. It's true that he would need to turn the tables on Calzaghe next to achieve dominance RIGHT NOW. But in contrast to Calzaghe he does not need to do it right now - he has still several years of time. He's fought for only two 2 years at the highest level, not 10.

Which means: at this juncture, Calzaghe needs Kessler more than Kessler needs Calzaghe.

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 22 Jun 2006, 19:27

Kessler wants too much money for Joe yet he'll take a low amount for Beyer whos on the slide.

Nah Kessler needs Joe more to build his name and for credit. Beyer is seen as by Yanks and Canadians as a fighter who lost to Lucas and Green the 1st time.

It's only his WBC belt that matters.

states · Post by **states** » 22 Jun 2006, 21:09

pundit wrote:
Max Molyneux wrote:Kessler needs Calzaghe more than Calzaghe needs him. Especially to make a name for himself and to get credit.
Calzaghe needs Kessler (or better: the winner of Kessler vs. Beyer) to establish himself as THE champion at 168. A precondition for HOF status, really.

Kessler will built his reputation further by beating Beyer. It's true that he would need to turn the tables on Calzaghe next to achieve dominance RIGHT NOW. But in contrast to Calzaghe he does not need to do it right now - he has still several years of time. He's fought for only two 2 years at the highest level, not 10.

Which means: at this juncture, Calzaghe needs Kessler more than Kessler needs Calzaghe.

Just to play devils advocate here Pundit: How can you be sure Kessler will build that reputation? He is, after all, older than Calzaghe was when he hit the world stage, and I'm pretty sure you can find fault with his reign.

I think (or at least hope) that he won't waste as much time as Joe, but who can say? I rate Kessler, highly. And, despite being a Brit, I'm not really a huge fan of Calzaghe. Here's hoping the two can meet, and the argument can be settled. For a few years at least.