You dont put Robinsons chin up there with Antuofermos?? and Mccalls???... jeeze... did they fight for 25 years against the opposition that Ray did?.... whens the last time Mccall defeated a true world class fighter?.... Robinson was still fighting for world titles at Mccalls age...DoubleM wrote:I've already said Robinson had a great chin, so I don't know what you are all getting so uptight about.
Just don't put it in the same class as Hagler, Antuofermo, Chuvalo, McCall, LaMotta, Gavilan, Graham etc...
Criticizing Robinson
Sorry wrong thread;
Robinson can be critised like any other fighter 'condemned' and marginalised for losses "on-an-off-night", or worse not allowed to lose, because of his greatness...
Keep in mind though, when fighters use to fight every 3, 4 or 5 weeks against Top men, we forget most of these Top men had equally busy 'fight' scheduals against other Top men and were EQUALLY great (for the most part), so a loss against Top men and greats is no shame!
Robinson could have fought Burley, Zale and even Cerdan I suppose as well as a few others, BUT "so could have the rest!
That's why for me, I can't just single out THE GREATEST, because there really were MANY OF THEM!!!
Robinson can be critised like any other fighter 'condemned' and marginalised for losses "on-an-off-night", or worse not allowed to lose, because of his greatness...
Keep in mind though, when fighters use to fight every 3, 4 or 5 weeks against Top men, we forget most of these Top men had equally busy 'fight' scheduals against other Top men and were EQUALLY great (for the most part), so a loss against Top men and greats is no shame!
Robinson could have fought Burley, Zale and even Cerdan I suppose as well as a few others, BUT "so could have the rest!
That's why for me, I can't just single out THE GREATEST, because there really were MANY OF THEM!!!
I really can't think of a single criticism of Robinson, at least not in the ring; every aspect of his game was good, there have been quicker fighters, harder hitters etc but I don't think there's ever been anybody who was so balanced at such a high level.
Somebody made a point about pressure fighters making him fight their fight, I don't really agree. It was his fight too, if you tagged him he hit you back with a combination, the more you landed the more he fired back, I don't think that's something to criticise just because he's supposed to be the precursor to Ali and Leonard and all the other 'slick' boxers, whilst praise is showered on someone like Holyfield for the exact same thing. Robinson was a warrior first and a slick boxer second.
Seriously, I can't think of a single thing to criticise, he was poetry in motion.
Somebody made a point about pressure fighters making him fight their fight, I don't really agree. It was his fight too, if you tagged him he hit you back with a combination, the more you landed the more he fired back, I don't think that's something to criticise just because he's supposed to be the precursor to Ali and Leonard and all the other 'slick' boxers, whilst praise is showered on someone like Holyfield for the exact same thing. Robinson was a warrior first and a slick boxer second.
Seriously, I can't think of a single thing to criticise, he was poetry in motion.
Anyone else want to sign on to this statement that Robinson should be classified as a Welterweight for "overall career" rating? Does anyone disagree? I've always considered him a middleweight overall.tonyevs wrote:To criticize Ray Robinson is blasphemy, he was a God, but middleweight just wasn’t his domain, he lost to too ordinary fighters whilst there…welterweight he heads the list, but to compete where he did just proves what a very special fighter he was.
There you go again. You can't distinguish between the ability to take a punch and heart, defense, experience and survival skills.silkov wrote:You dont put Robinsons chin up there with Antuofermos?? and Mccalls???... jeeze... did they fight for 25 years against the opposition that Ray did?.... whens the last time Mccall defeated a true world class fighter?.... Robinson was still fighting for world titles at Mccalls age...DoubleM wrote:I've already said Robinson had a great chin, so I don't know what you are all getting so uptight about.
Just don't put it in the same class as Hagler, Antuofermo, Chuvalo, McCall, LaMotta, Gavilan, Graham etc...
I'd bet my house Antuofermo took a better shot than Robinson. He just took more of them, and didn't have the vital skills to defend from the rest or recover properly.
..buzzy...i go along with decagon.....i've written here in the past that robinson's greatest years against middleweights were when he was still a welter....so i consider him the greatest of all welters....and a great middleweight when he could still fight in the lower division.
once more about his chin...to compare it to fighters like lamotta and chuvalo...(on a pound for pound basis) is really loading it...because there aren't a half dozen fighters in the history of the game who could equal them in that respect.
once more about his chin...to compare it to fighters like lamotta and chuvalo...(on a pound for pound basis) is really loading it...because there aren't a half dozen fighters in the history of the game who could equal them in that respect.
Back to what I said earlier, ALLOW for the 'law of averages', Robinson can be critised BUT it is usually 'ungrounded', the shear number of fights he competed in and the amount of years he fought...well OF COURSE you'll lose a few and you should, your fighting Top men and other greats!
Robinson was a WW cum MW and should be remembered as such which for my money makes him greater - Hopkins by comparison is a L-HW cum MW: "something wrong there (?), NO?"
Robinson could have meet a few others but they ALL could have, but compared to some/many (especially todays fighters), Robinson met PLENTY and great fighters all, from the greatest era...Robinson equalls greatness!!!
Robinson was a WW cum MW and should be remembered as such which for my money makes him greater - Hopkins by comparison is a L-HW cum MW: "something wrong there (?), NO?"
Robinson could have meet a few others but they ALL could have, but compared to some/many (especially todays fighters), Robinson met PLENTY and great fighters all, from the greatest era...Robinson equalls greatness!!!
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>>>Just don't put it in the same class as Hagler, Antuofermo, Chuvalo, McCall, LaMotta, Gavilan, Graham etc...<<<
As I have asked on a couple of occasions, what evidence do you have that would say that Robinson is not in the same class as any of the fighters you mention? All the actual evidence points to the fact the he is in the same class, but as I have stated, I would be more than glad to see some evidence to prove otherwise, but sorry, being hurt by a puncher like Artie Levine is probable for any fighter and the fact that Joey Archer knocked Robinson down really has no merit considering that it was Robinson last fight and that he was what 45 years old?
>>>Hopkins a light heavyweight? He probably could have made welterweight in his early career, and he probably would have gone down to jr. middleweight if Don King's middleweight tournament hadn't come along.<<<
Hopkins started out at light heavyweight and it would have probably killed him to attempt to get to 147. He talked about going down to 154, but he never did it and being that DeLa Hoya moved up to 160, I think he did so because Hopkins knew he couldn't do 154 and still be healthy! Hell, he often looked skeletal, not skeletal, but his skin always seemed to be very, very tight, too tight really at 160. Same thing with when he faced Trinidad...Hopkins talked about going down to 154, but it was Trinidad who came up and Hopkins never attempted 154...luckily for him!
As for Robinson...I agree that welterweight was his weight. He still competed very well at the highest level at 160, but he was not as effective at 160. He was almost super-human at 147...at 160 he was more than human!
As I have asked on a couple of occasions, what evidence do you have that would say that Robinson is not in the same class as any of the fighters you mention? All the actual evidence points to the fact the he is in the same class, but as I have stated, I would be more than glad to see some evidence to prove otherwise, but sorry, being hurt by a puncher like Artie Levine is probable for any fighter and the fact that Joey Archer knocked Robinson down really has no merit considering that it was Robinson last fight and that he was what 45 years old?
>>>Hopkins a light heavyweight? He probably could have made welterweight in his early career, and he probably would have gone down to jr. middleweight if Don King's middleweight tournament hadn't come along.<<<
Hopkins started out at light heavyweight and it would have probably killed him to attempt to get to 147. He talked about going down to 154, but he never did it and being that DeLa Hoya moved up to 160, I think he did so because Hopkins knew he couldn't do 154 and still be healthy! Hell, he often looked skeletal, not skeletal, but his skin always seemed to be very, very tight, too tight really at 160. Same thing with when he faced Trinidad...Hopkins talked about going down to 154, but it was Trinidad who came up and Hopkins never attempted 154...luckily for him!
As for Robinson...I agree that welterweight was his weight. He still competed very well at the highest level at 160, but he was not as effective at 160. He was almost super-human at 147...at 160 he was more than human!
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The sun claim is true, but it has no bearing on this debate! Maxim did fight in the same sun and heat, but plain and simple, Maxim did not stop Robinson...the sun and heat did...hell Robinson was winning the fight.
LaMotta was put down and so was most other fighters that ever faced a consistent supply of top fighters, but Robinson was never stopped!
LaMotta was stopped...in a fake with Billy Fox, but he was also stopped legitimately by Danny Nardico, Bob Murphy and by Robinson. Robinson did not put him down, but Nardico legitimately did and I am not certain, but I think Murphy did as well. Now Murphy and Nardico were both vicious hitters, but that is beside the point...LaMotta was stopped legitimately by an opponent…three times...Robinson never was!
Chuvalo, though never knocked down, was stopped legitimately by Frazier and Foreman, and I would be willing to bet that had those bouts not been stopped as early as they was, then Chuvalo would have certainly tasted canvas before 12 rounds had elapsed.
Both Chuvalo and LaMotta were stopped because of the punishment they received from an opponent...Robinson never was stopped, except by mother-nature!
Sorry, but that is clear evidence that Robinson not only belongs right beside nearly any fighter, but also that he was able to make it through over 100 more fights than Chuvalo and nearly 100 more fights than LaMotta. Chances are had LaMotta, or Chuvalo fought 100 more bouts they would likely have been stopped more times than they were and I would be willing to bet that had either fought top competition into they're 40s that each would have tasted canvas several times! On the ability to take a shot, LaMotta and Chuvalo probably had better chins, but the clear evidence speaks different!
LaMotta was put down and so was most other fighters that ever faced a consistent supply of top fighters, but Robinson was never stopped!
LaMotta was stopped...in a fake with Billy Fox, but he was also stopped legitimately by Danny Nardico, Bob Murphy and by Robinson. Robinson did not put him down, but Nardico legitimately did and I am not certain, but I think Murphy did as well. Now Murphy and Nardico were both vicious hitters, but that is beside the point...LaMotta was stopped legitimately by an opponent…three times...Robinson never was!
Chuvalo, though never knocked down, was stopped legitimately by Frazier and Foreman, and I would be willing to bet that had those bouts not been stopped as early as they was, then Chuvalo would have certainly tasted canvas before 12 rounds had elapsed.
Both Chuvalo and LaMotta were stopped because of the punishment they received from an opponent...Robinson never was stopped, except by mother-nature!
Sorry, but that is clear evidence that Robinson not only belongs right beside nearly any fighter, but also that he was able to make it through over 100 more fights than Chuvalo and nearly 100 more fights than LaMotta. Chances are had LaMotta, or Chuvalo fought 100 more bouts they would likely have been stopped more times than they were and I would be willing to bet that had either fought top competition into they're 40s that each would have tasted canvas several times! On the ability to take a shot, LaMotta and Chuvalo probably had better chins, but the clear evidence speaks different!
Well then if Robinson is truly a WW which I think there is some good evidence to support, Monzon is safe with the "Greatest MW of all time" banner....which I might actually be inclined to believe with or without Robinson's competition in the MW sweepstakes.
Last edited by BoxBuzz on 26 Jun 2006, 07:01, edited 1 time in total.
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Still, fact is stronger than opinion any day...and the facts speak plain and clear...Robinson was never stopped by an opponent! As far as Robinson going down nine times...I don't recall them all off the top of my head...there was Levine and Archer in his last fight, but what were the others?
Also, having a good chin not only means that a fighter can take a punch and not go down.
Joe Grim is considered to be one of the toughest fighters ever...even more so than LaMotta, or Chuvalo, yet Grim was down countless times...close to twenty in each of his bouts with Johnson and Fitzsimmons, and down five to ten times in many other bouts but do you have anyone claiming that he did not have a great chin, one of the best?
Also, having a good chin not only means that a fighter can take a punch and not go down.
Joe Grim is considered to be one of the toughest fighters ever...even more so than LaMotta, or Chuvalo, yet Grim was down countless times...close to twenty in each of his bouts with Johnson and Fitzsimmons, and down five to ten times in many other bouts but do you have anyone claiming that he did not have a great chin, one of the best?
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>>>Well then if Robinson is truly a WW which I think there is some good evidence to support, Monzon is safe with the "Greatest MW of all time" banner....which I might actually be inclined to believe with or without Robinson's competition in the MW sweepstakes.<<<
I would vote Greb number one. I've never tried to put together a top ten list of middleweights, but if I did, I'm not sure I would have Robinson in my top ten. He is number one at welterweight in my opinion, but middleweight, well he could compete with any fighter in history and more times than not win, but he was beatable at 160. Maybe due to his age, but I just know that he was nearly invincible at 147, which he only lost a couple of nearly 100 total bouts at that weight and at middleweight he lost often...though a lot was later in his career.
I would vote Greb number one. I've never tried to put together a top ten list of middleweights, but if I did, I'm not sure I would have Robinson in my top ten. He is number one at welterweight in my opinion, but middleweight, well he could compete with any fighter in history and more times than not win, but he was beatable at 160. Maybe due to his age, but I just know that he was nearly invincible at 147, which he only lost a couple of nearly 100 total bouts at that weight and at middleweight he lost often...though a lot was later in his career.
barry you knowledge of the older fighters gives you a bit of an edge in the assessment dept. Do you think we can be as sure of fighters who do not have hours of "film time" to be analyzed? I think the written record can be absorbing and intersting but harder to fit into a "matrix of assessment". Is there enough on the record to really get good competitive judgement on the older era fighters? You can analyze hour upon hour of fims of the new guys, but the older era is very limited in terms of viewability.
Does the "written record" contain enough evidence to make the call?
Does the "written record" contain enough evidence to make the call?
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My evidence is either film or record. I've seen Antuofermo, Hagler, Chuvalo and LaMotta take monster shots without blinking, whereas I've seen Robinson sent down or hurt. I also know that Gavilan went 143 contests being floored only twice and against superior punching opposition to Robinson, and that Oliver McCall has alledgedly never been down as an amateur or professional (same as Hagler), whereas Robinson was down a few times and was hurt in his prime.barry wrote:>>>Just don't put it in the same class as Hagler, Antuofermo, Chuvalo, McCall, LaMotta, Gavilan, Graham etc...<<<
As I have asked on a couple of occasions, what evidence do you have that would say that Robinson is not in the same class as any of the fighters you mention? All the actual evidence points to the fact the he is in the same class, but as I have stated, I would be more than glad to see some evidence to prove otherwise, but sorry, being hurt by a puncher like Artie Levine is probable for any fighter and the fact that Joey Archer knocked Robinson down really has no merit considering that it was Robinson last fight and that he was what 45 years old?
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The Great John L
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Re: re
SRR may have “lost often” at MW, but we should all be realistic here. How many did he lose before his nearly 3 year retirement after the Maxim fight? He early loss to LaMotta when he was outweighed by about 15 lbs? And Turpin? Anybody else?barry wrote:>>>Well then if Robinson is truly a WW which I think there is some good evidence to support, Monzon is safe with the "Greatest MW of all time" banner....which I might actually be inclined to believe with or without Robinson's competition in the MW sweepstakes.<<<
I would vote Greb number one. I've never tried to put together a top ten list of middleweights, but if I did, I'm not sure I would have Robinson in my top ten. He is number one at welterweight in my opinion, but middleweight, well he could compete with any fighter in history and more times than not win, but he was beatable at 160. Maybe due to his age, but I just know that he was nearly invincible at 147, which he only lost a couple of nearly 100 total bouts at that weight and at middleweight he lost often...though a lot was later in his career.
Obviously SRR was never the same fighter after his retirement, but to down grade him all time as a MW because of this doesn’t make a lot of sense. Do we hold it against Ali because he lost to Spinks and Berbick? Have there really been 10 MWs who were greater than the prime SRR? While his record at MW prior to the Maxim fight wasn’t as impressive as his WW record, it still looks pretty impressive, as does the prime SRR on film.
I don’t rate SRR as my #1 MW either, but to not have him in the all time top 10 MWs?
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>>>Does the "written record" contain enough evidence to make the call?<<<
Absolutely!!! But more so are the people from the era's who watched the fighters...they're praising is just as good, just as correct and just as credible than people that will now make claims based on what they have watched! It's no different except that we cannot watch some of these fighters, but there have been many, many very distinguished followers of boxing that have witnessed the greats from the time on not film thru to the time of TV and those cats will credit the chin of a Joe Grim as being just as durable as Jake LaMotta.
Now most those guys who witnessed the early greats were not around to witness the 60s and later, but there has not been a sudden run of tougher than normal fighters...in fact, in anything, the fighters ability to absorb punishment has diminished with time!
I cannot watch a film of Harry Greb, none exists, but like those that saw Grim, I can take the word of the biggest percentage of people that did see Greb and those that saw Greb and also saw LaMotta and take they're word for it that Greb was one of the toughest fighters with one of the best chins ever. Even though none of us have seen Greb, pretty much everyone will agree with the assessment...even though they have not seen Greb in action...the same goes for the other fighters of the era and before…just because we cannot watch video it does not mean that they were not tough as hell and those that we cannot watch we have to take written word for, yet some written word is more credible than others, but that is something that the researcher will have to distinguish fro themselves through many, many, many hours of comparisons, but in no way does it mean that the people making claims today based on what they saw is more credible than the judgments of the people that watched the fighters we can’t.
Though some people think that they have more credibility because they can watch one, or two fights of a fighters career, sometimes not even that, but it just doesn’t work that way and I will take the word of people who have witnessed most of fighters entire career compared to someone who has seen one, two, or even ten tapes of a fighter, but it’s not all about taking the word of someone…that’s where the overall research comes in and many people are just not willing to put in the time that it will take to make a good and honest and accurate judgment, so they assume and guess, but overall a person can learn just as much about a fighter through words as a person can from watching a fight…it will just take a lot longer time than some are willing to put in!
Absolutely!!! But more so are the people from the era's who watched the fighters...they're praising is just as good, just as correct and just as credible than people that will now make claims based on what they have watched! It's no different except that we cannot watch some of these fighters, but there have been many, many very distinguished followers of boxing that have witnessed the greats from the time on not film thru to the time of TV and those cats will credit the chin of a Joe Grim as being just as durable as Jake LaMotta.
Now most those guys who witnessed the early greats were not around to witness the 60s and later, but there has not been a sudden run of tougher than normal fighters...in fact, in anything, the fighters ability to absorb punishment has diminished with time!
I cannot watch a film of Harry Greb, none exists, but like those that saw Grim, I can take the word of the biggest percentage of people that did see Greb and those that saw Greb and also saw LaMotta and take they're word for it that Greb was one of the toughest fighters with one of the best chins ever. Even though none of us have seen Greb, pretty much everyone will agree with the assessment...even though they have not seen Greb in action...the same goes for the other fighters of the era and before…just because we cannot watch video it does not mean that they were not tough as hell and those that we cannot watch we have to take written word for, yet some written word is more credible than others, but that is something that the researcher will have to distinguish fro themselves through many, many, many hours of comparisons, but in no way does it mean that the people making claims today based on what they saw is more credible than the judgments of the people that watched the fighters we can’t.
Though some people think that they have more credibility because they can watch one, or two fights of a fighters career, sometimes not even that, but it just doesn’t work that way and I will take the word of people who have witnessed most of fighters entire career compared to someone who has seen one, two, or even ten tapes of a fighter, but it’s not all about taking the word of someone…that’s where the overall research comes in and many people are just not willing to put in the time that it will take to make a good and honest and accurate judgment, so they assume and guess, but overall a person can learn just as much about a fighter through words as a person can from watching a fight…it will just take a lot longer time than some are willing to put in!
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>>>My evidence is either film or record. I've seen Antuofermo, Hagler, Chuvalo and LaMotta take monster shots without blinking, whereas I've seen Robinson sent down or hurt. I also know that Gavilan went 143 contests being floored only twice and against superior punching opposition to Robinson, and that Oliver McCall has alledgedly never been down as an amateur or professional (same as Hagler), whereas Robinson was down a few times and was hurt in his prime.<<<
You talk about it, but you have failed to present anything! And really, what fighters that Antuefermo and Hagler, or any of the others faced were so much harder hitters than some that Robinson faced? All you are presenting is your opinion...I want to see some actual facts to back the claim! I have presented many facts to support my debate!
You talk about it, but you have failed to present anything! And really, what fighters that Antuefermo and Hagler, or any of the others faced were so much harder hitters than some that Robinson faced? All you are presenting is your opinion...I want to see some actual facts to back the claim! I have presented many facts to support my debate!
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The Grim statement is just as viable as LaMotta, Antuefermo, or anyone else! And as I have said which matters most, the people who watched him considered him to have a great chin...you're about the first person that I have heard state otherwise, so in turn I have to ask, what do you really know about Grim?
>>>If you want to throw afficionado stuff about why bring up that name? You must have seen Robinson fight, in which it is puzzling you don't recall him going down versus Graziano, read his autobio also where he admits to some KD's and read other bios where they are brought-up.<<<
As I stated, I don't recall off the top of my head, but I do recall the Graziano flash knockdown...in fact I bet the biggest percetage of others were flash knockdowns, but Graziano is one, not nine, whats the others!
Having a great chin is a lot more than just taking a punch and not going down...if you can go down and shake it off, that's a pretty damn good chin...heart plays into it, when the fighter is down and taking a savage beating, like LaMotta took against Robinson, which I would call more heart than chin that he didn't go down, so your argument is pointless in the same manner that you claim mine is...though I have presented a lot of actual facts to back my claim...and I have heard is mostly opinions in return!
>>>If you want to throw afficionado stuff about why bring up that name? You must have seen Robinson fight, in which it is puzzling you don't recall him going down versus Graziano, read his autobio also where he admits to some KD's and read other bios where they are brought-up.<<<
As I stated, I don't recall off the top of my head, but I do recall the Graziano flash knockdown...in fact I bet the biggest percetage of others were flash knockdowns, but Graziano is one, not nine, whats the others!
Having a great chin is a lot more than just taking a punch and not going down...if you can go down and shake it off, that's a pretty damn good chin...heart plays into it, when the fighter is down and taking a savage beating, like LaMotta took against Robinson, which I would call more heart than chin that he didn't go down, so your argument is pointless in the same manner that you claim mine is...though I have presented a lot of actual facts to back my claim...and I have heard is mostly opinions in return!
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Lets see, so far that has been named Robinson has been dropped by:
Artie Levine---One of the harder punching fighters of his era.
Rocky Graziano--One of the harder-hitting middleweights in history.
Joey Archer---In Robinson's last fight when he was near 45 years old.
Now there are what, six more, so lets get the names out because being dropped by Graziano and Levine, as I nhave wsaid, is probable against any fighter...after all, they dropped a lot of other fighters! And Archer dropping Robinson when he is 45 hardly counts. So what are the others...so we can get the actual facts on the board!
Artie Levine---One of the harder punching fighters of his era.
Rocky Graziano--One of the harder-hitting middleweights in history.
Joey Archer---In Robinson's last fight when he was near 45 years old.
Now there are what, six more, so lets get the names out because being dropped by Graziano and Levine, as I nhave wsaid, is probable against any fighter...after all, they dropped a lot of other fighters! And Archer dropping Robinson when he is 45 hardly counts. So what are the others...so we can get the actual facts on the board!
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Alright, here are the others that are listed:
Artie Levine---Possibly the only time that Robinson was truly hurt, and on the verge of being knocked out...though he recovered and stopped Levine!
Twice against LaMotta…now were they solid knockdowns, or were they flash knockdowns...I don't know?
Tommy Bell---Another very vicous hitting fighter. Robinson won though!
Rocky Graziano--Flash knockdown, which Robinson got up and really punished Graziano afterward.
Rocky Castellani---I’ve never seen it, but he apparently really hurt Robinson being that he took a 9-count. Robinson was 34 at this point and still won the bout!
Wilf Greaves (twice)---Greaves was not the hardest-hitting fighter ever, but he was no light-slapper either, not to mention that Robinson was 40 years old by this time, though he won both fights!
Joey Giardello---When Robinson was 42 years old.
Joey Archer---Robinson's last fight.
Now at his best, or before he became an old man veteran, Robinson was dropped by Artie Levine, Tommy Bell and Jake LaMotta. Levine and Bell were very hard punching fighters and LaMotta…well, he did not have one punch kayo power, but he did score some very impressive knockouts against some very tough opponents, so can one say that Robinson did not have a great chin based on this…well you can, but there is not much truth to it! Now the last three opponents that dropped Robinson he was 40+ years old…I wonder that if Hagler, LaMotta, McCall, or Chuvalo would have went through close to 50 bouts after they turned 40 without being dropped…I would bet my house that they would have been dropped…probably knocked out a few times if the faced the same kind of opposition that Robinson did at that age. The one fight that is in question for me is the one against Castellani, who though he was one of the best middleweights of the era, he wasn’t the hardest hitter, but then again a fighter can get lucky and a light-hitting puncher can score a lucky shot and drop just about anyone.
Another name that comes to mind…Muhammad Ali!!! Now does anyone not consider him to have a great chin? One of the greatest chins right? Now wait a minute…Ali was dropped several times, so how could he have a great chin…a chin that ranks with some of the greatest ever?
Artie Levine---Possibly the only time that Robinson was truly hurt, and on the verge of being knocked out...though he recovered and stopped Levine!
Twice against LaMotta…now were they solid knockdowns, or were they flash knockdowns...I don't know?
Tommy Bell---Another very vicous hitting fighter. Robinson won though!
Rocky Graziano--Flash knockdown, which Robinson got up and really punished Graziano afterward.
Rocky Castellani---I’ve never seen it, but he apparently really hurt Robinson being that he took a 9-count. Robinson was 34 at this point and still won the bout!
Wilf Greaves (twice)---Greaves was not the hardest-hitting fighter ever, but he was no light-slapper either, not to mention that Robinson was 40 years old by this time, though he won both fights!
Joey Giardello---When Robinson was 42 years old.
Joey Archer---Robinson's last fight.
Now at his best, or before he became an old man veteran, Robinson was dropped by Artie Levine, Tommy Bell and Jake LaMotta. Levine and Bell were very hard punching fighters and LaMotta…well, he did not have one punch kayo power, but he did score some very impressive knockouts against some very tough opponents, so can one say that Robinson did not have a great chin based on this…well you can, but there is not much truth to it! Now the last three opponents that dropped Robinson he was 40+ years old…I wonder that if Hagler, LaMotta, McCall, or Chuvalo would have went through close to 50 bouts after they turned 40 without being dropped…I would bet my house that they would have been dropped…probably knocked out a few times if the faced the same kind of opposition that Robinson did at that age. The one fight that is in question for me is the one against Castellani, who though he was one of the best middleweights of the era, he wasn’t the hardest hitter, but then again a fighter can get lucky and a light-hitting puncher can score a lucky shot and drop just about anyone.
Another name that comes to mind…Muhammad Ali!!! Now does anyone not consider him to have a great chin? One of the greatest chins right? Now wait a minute…Ali was dropped several times, so how could he have a great chin…a chin that ranks with some of the greatest ever?
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I saw Antuofermo take some of the most evil looking hooks I've ever seen off Eugene Hart, a known dynamite puncher. I saw him take some real hard cracks off Hagler and not even blink. I've seen Hagler treat Mugabi's powerful potshots with disdain, weather Hart's hooks and fight back harder, take Hearns' ten punch combination and come roaring back seconds later.barry wrote:>>>My evidence is either film or record. I've seen Antuofermo, Hagler, Chuvalo and LaMotta take monster shots without blinking, whereas I've seen Robinson sent down or hurt. I also know that Gavilan went 143 contests being floored only twice and against superior punching opposition to Robinson, and that Oliver McCall has alledgedly never been down as an amateur or professional (same as Hagler), whereas Robinson was down a few times and was hurt in his prime.<<<
You talk about it, but you have failed to present anything! And really, what fighters that Antuefermo and Hagler, or any of the others faced were so much harder hitters than some that Robinson faced? All you are presenting is your opinion...I want to see some actual facts to back the claim! I have presented many facts to support my debate!
..barry...going back a few posts and just for the record...robinson never lost as a welterweight. (he was still a welter when lamotta beat him.) maybe a better way to express it is that no lightweight (he fought in that division early) or welter weight ever beat him. his losses came in his career as a middleweight. there are those who will disagree with the following statement: robinson was actually past his prime when he won the middleweight title against lamotta.
i think the chin discussion has played itself out....and let's be fair...the original thread was about just that..his chin and nothing else....it didn't put down robinson as a great fighter.
oops...re the graziano knockdown....here we are talking about robinson's neck...not his chin. if you've got the tape take a close look.
re: re: maxim.....the sugarman was way ahead before he collapsed...but he didn't fight smart. maxim kept leaning on him..using his weight while saving energy. robinson kept struggling to pull lose...thus using a lot of energy. if he had just relaxed in maxim's arms until the referee separated them i think he would have lasted the fifteen rounds and won big.
i think the chin discussion has played itself out....and let's be fair...the original thread was about just that..his chin and nothing else....it didn't put down robinson as a great fighter.
oops...re the graziano knockdown....here we are talking about robinson's neck...not his chin. if you've got the tape take a close look.
re: re: maxim.....the sugarman was way ahead before he collapsed...but he didn't fight smart. maxim kept leaning on him..using his weight while saving energy. robinson kept struggling to pull lose...thus using a lot of energy. if he had just relaxed in maxim's arms until the referee separated them i think he would have lasted the fifteen rounds and won big.
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>>>I asked you why you did not mention Robinson going down versus Graziano and you stated it did not matter or words to that effect and asked me to name the other names before doing it yourself, I read about the names in the bios of Ray and saw the ones I could. You can smudge it by saying he was old or it doesn't count when it fact it does.<<<
Are you going to start making up shit now? I never said any of the such…after saying that I did not recall his other knockdowns other than the Levine and Archer bouts, I said it was a flash knockdown that he suffered against Graziano, which it was and unlike Zab Judah, who you mention…Robinson did not dance around the ring like the scarecrow from the Wizard of Oz after getting up from Graziano’s neck-shot, he got up and punished Graziano, but Judah danced a funky jig…maybe you should choose a more viable instance?
You can try to play off the Ali comparison like it does not count, but it is more valid than most of the opinions you have presented! You trying to play off the knockdowns Ali suffered is the same thing I am doing with Robinson…they were knocked down, but they both still had two of the top chins in history…A+ chins both of them…which I think the biggest percentage of people would agree with!
>>>The fact is Ray was floored a fair few times, his chin is not up there with Hagler and other tough guys, yes La Matto amongst them. Just because Ray stopped Jake does not mean his chin was better, unless you'd care to argue that Lewis had a better chin than McCall?!<<<
Another fact is this…Robinson had 100+ more fights than any of the fighters mentioned and he fought well up in age, whereas the others did not. As I said before…I would bet my house that had any of the fighters mentioned fought as much, as long and against as good of opposition that Robinson did, then they too would have tasted canvas and probably would have been KO’d, but the fact is that Hagler got out while still roughly at his best…Robinson at his best never lost, at his best he was down roughly three times, one he was truly hurt, but in every instance he won, save for the bout with LaMotta which he gave up a lot of weight to. The same can be said of any of the other fighters as well, though LaMotta fought past his best and he was dropped and legitimately stopped at that point…Robinson never was…that is fact!
As Jaclem said, the debate has run its course, unless you can present some actual evidence instead of opinion to actually prove Robinson did not have an A+ chin!
Are you going to start making up shit now? I never said any of the such…after saying that I did not recall his other knockdowns other than the Levine and Archer bouts, I said it was a flash knockdown that he suffered against Graziano, which it was and unlike Zab Judah, who you mention…Robinson did not dance around the ring like the scarecrow from the Wizard of Oz after getting up from Graziano’s neck-shot, he got up and punished Graziano, but Judah danced a funky jig…maybe you should choose a more viable instance?
You can try to play off the Ali comparison like it does not count, but it is more valid than most of the opinions you have presented! You trying to play off the knockdowns Ali suffered is the same thing I am doing with Robinson…they were knocked down, but they both still had two of the top chins in history…A+ chins both of them…which I think the biggest percentage of people would agree with!
>>>The fact is Ray was floored a fair few times, his chin is not up there with Hagler and other tough guys, yes La Matto amongst them. Just because Ray stopped Jake does not mean his chin was better, unless you'd care to argue that Lewis had a better chin than McCall?!<<<
Another fact is this…Robinson had 100+ more fights than any of the fighters mentioned and he fought well up in age, whereas the others did not. As I said before…I would bet my house that had any of the fighters mentioned fought as much, as long and against as good of opposition that Robinson did, then they too would have tasted canvas and probably would have been KO’d, but the fact is that Hagler got out while still roughly at his best…Robinson at his best never lost, at his best he was down roughly three times, one he was truly hurt, but in every instance he won, save for the bout with LaMotta which he gave up a lot of weight to. The same can be said of any of the other fighters as well, though LaMotta fought past his best and he was dropped and legitimately stopped at that point…Robinson never was…that is fact!
As Jaclem said, the debate has run its course, unless you can present some actual evidence instead of opinion to actually prove Robinson did not have an A+ chin!