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Posted: 18 Jul 2006, 09:37
by jamesmcdonnell
If you look at the biggest punchers in history, you will notice it was their frames that were big, and generally they were not laden with huge pumped up muscles.
Sonny Liston only weighed 205, but his shoulders and back were broad and very deep, he had a huge chest, huge legs, and fists like boulders.
George Foreman, remarkably was only 215 lbs, but again, broad back and shoulders and huge legs.
Marciano, despite his small stature was a very powerfully built man at 186 lbs and only 5' 9" he was a real fireplug, but again had powerful, back, neck and shoulder muscles.
My point is that with all of these men, they were NATURALLY thickset, they didn't bulk up and didn't need to.
I'm sure Haye would probably be stronger not having to boil down to make weight, if that is what he is doing, but I would like to see him come in around 210-215 where he would retain his natural athleticism
Has anyone seen a tale of the tape anywhere for Haye, I'd be interested to see the measurements.
For anyone who is interested, this makes very interesting scanning.
http://www.ibhof.com/ibhftape.htm
Posted: 18 Jul 2006, 10:07
by Chambers2
I agree that Haye shouldn't bulk up too much, but he was 16 and a half stone in the pic below and still looks to have kept his natural athleticsm (picture from Real Deal).
http://f5.putfile.com/5/13518205541.jpg
I've taken the below post off the boxing talk forum from a poster who knows Haye (GITR), which gives a good insight into Hayes current weight issues
David hasn’t even done anything weight-based for months, let alone actively tried to bulk up. He can’t afford to get any bigger at the moment. I was with him a couple of weeks ago, and he was weighing 16 stone 8 and a half lbs – looking similar to how he does in Real Deal’s picture. Not totally cut up, but hardly any excess weight on him either.
He’s just had one of those mid-20’s growth spurts that hits many people. The same thing happened to his Dad during his 20’s. He’s at a point now where he’s doing everything possible to lose weight. David’s hardly renowned for his love of roadwork, but he’s running more now than he’s ever done before, because he HAS to in order to even dream of seeing 14 stone 4 lbs.
He’s had to leave the weight training behind, and thankfully, in Miami, the training mostly consists of running and boxing gym work. That’s part of the reason he goes out there now – it’s a good environment (boxing wise) and offers a crash course in dropping weight (away from weights).
It definitely isn't good for him, but he's close to a cruiserweight title shot now, and you can understand him wanting to follow it through. It needs to be ASAP, though. I don't like seeing him, or any other fighter, yo-yoing the weights.
Posted: 18 Jul 2006, 10:14
by nickd
I seriously doubt Haye is 230lbs+ in that picture unless his bones are made of lead! I think they are exaggerating the weight issue. He probably doesn't like getting down to 200lbs but I doubt its as much of a struggle as they make out.
Posted: 18 Jul 2006, 10:14
by jamesmcdonnell
Well, if this is the case, and he is not overweight at 16 stone 8, then so be it, but I just find it hard to believe looking at that physique that it is a natural build, his pectorals look well and truly pumped up.
Posted: 18 Jul 2006, 10:16
by Chambers2
Terence wrote:Look how bulky Bruno was and his power, for me, was always of the clubbing variety. Guys with skinnyish arms and long muscles are always the best punchers as they get more snap and speed into their shots, Hearns being a case in point.
I don't see Sam Peter as being as destructive a puncher as some maintain, he iced Williams yet he seems heavy-handed more than anything else.
I usually agree with you (especially re: Audley), but IMO Peter is the most destructive puncher in the HW division. I agree that there are alot of wirey boxers who are real bangers (Hearns as you say, Pinto is another that springs to mind), its down to the leverage and speed that they generate.
Posted: 18 Jul 2006, 10:19
by Chambers2
nickd wrote:I seriously doubt Haye is 230lbs+ in that picture unless his bones are made of lead! I think they are exaggerating the weight issue. He probably doesn't like getting down to 200lbs but I doubt its as much of a struggle as they make out.
I can't verify the weight myself, but I did hear it from 2 different sources in GITR and Real Deal (who is an Enzo fan)
Posted: 18 Jul 2006, 10:21
by nickd
Chambers2 wrote:nickd wrote:I seriously doubt Haye is 230lbs+ in that picture unless his bones are made of lead! I think they are exaggerating the weight issue. He probably doesn't like getting down to 200lbs but I doubt its as much of a struggle as they make out.
I can't verify the weight myself, but I did hear it from 2 different sources in GITR and Real Deal (who is an Enzo fan)
According to what GITR seems to be saying he had more flesh on him at 16.5 stone than in that pic, maybe he's less there? He doesn't look that thickset, I know he is 6'3 but he is still not that wide there, not as wide as you'd expect if he's close to 230.
Posted: 18 Jul 2006, 10:26
by jamesmcdonnell
nickd wrote:I seriously doubt Haye is 230lbs+ in that picture unless his bones are made of lead! I think they are exaggerating the weight issue. He probably doesn't like getting down to 200lbs but I doubt its as much of a struggle as they make out.
I know, he doesn't look that heavy there at all. I mean he's not a massively framed guy, the shoulders aren't that broad skeltally, so where is all that weight. He doesn't have great whacking legs like a Danny Williams, so where is that weight piled on exactly?
Posted: 18 Jul 2006, 10:28
by nickd
jamesmcdonnell wrote:nickd wrote:I seriously doubt Haye is 230lbs+ in that picture unless his bones are made of lead! I think they are exaggerating the weight issue. He probably doesn't like getting down to 200lbs but I doubt its as much of a struggle as they make out.
I know, he doesn't look that heavy there at all. I mean he's not a massively framed guy, the shoulders aren't that broad skeltally, so where is all that weight. He doesn't have great whacking legs like a Danny Williams, so where is that weight piled on exactly?
I think wires might be crossed here Haye is weighing in for some reason there perhaps he is close to his fighting weight there. He certainly doesn't look much bigger than he does during a fight. I'm not saying he isn't over 16 stone normally that is possible but maybe that pic was taken close to a fight he was cutting weight for?
Posted: 18 Jul 2006, 10:30
by kevin
The picture was taken at the first press conference to announce the Ismail Abdoul fight,
Posted: 18 Jul 2006, 10:30
by jamesmcdonnell
Chambers2 wrote:Terence wrote:Look how bulky Bruno was and his power, for me, was always of the clubbing variety. Guys with skinnyish arms and long muscles are always the best punchers as they get more snap and speed into their shots, Hearns being a case in point.
I don't see Sam Peter as being as destructive a puncher as some maintain, he iced Williams yet he seems heavy-handed more than anything else.
I usually agree with you (especially re: Audley), but IMO Peter is the most destructive puncher in the HW division. I agree that there are alot of wirey boxers who are real bangers (Hearns as you say, Pinto is another that springs to mind), its down to the leverage and speed that they generate.
Who has Peter stopped to indicate his ferocious power. Jeremy Williams was a blown up cruiserweight who was well past it, and how has always had a suspect chin.
Posted: 18 Jul 2006, 10:31
by Chambers2
jamesmcdonnell wrote:Well, if this is the case, and he is not overweight at 16 stone 8, then so be it, but I just find it hard to believe looking at that physique that it is a natural build, his pectorals look well and truly pumped up.
I agree with most of what you've been saying, i.e. that he shouldn't come in too muscled/bulked up, but we just seem to differ on what his natural weight is. I think he'll be coming in at about 16 and a half at HW and still retain his natural athleticsm
Posted: 18 Jul 2006, 10:34
by jamesmcdonnell
I'm only surmising based on my observations of seeing him in the flesh, which is not the best indicator, but having stood and talked to him and Johnny Nelson, Nelson looked the naturally bigger man in terms of frame, and he wasn't fighting at 230 as a heavyweight and is still making weight at 40 years of age. Think Nelson might be a little less naturally muscular, but his shoulders and back are incredibly broad.
Posted: 18 Jul 2006, 10:38
by Chambers2
Kevin wrote:The picture was taken at the first press conference to announce the Ismail Abdoul fight,
Real Deal posted the pic on May 16th, so that would weigh up with what you said
Posted: 18 Jul 2006, 10:48
by jamesmcdonnell
Williams never saw the shot coming, that's why he got knocked out, it was a pretty heavy punch, but as you say it was a clubbing rather than laser-accurate deadly missile which homed in on his chin. Williams was swinging away with his chin in the air and Peter swiped at it and took him out.
Posted: 18 Jul 2006, 10:48
by nickd
Face it boys Audley is going nowhere. Give it up!
Posted: 18 Jul 2006, 10:54
by Chambers2
jamesmcdonnell wrote:Chambers2 wrote:Terence wrote:Look how bulky Bruno was and his power, for me, was always of the clubbing variety. Guys with skinnyish arms and long muscles are always the best punchers as they get more snap and speed into their shots, Hearns being a case in point.
I don't see Sam Peter as being as destructive a puncher as some maintain, he iced Williams yet he seems heavy-handed more than anything else.
I usually agree with you (especially re: Audley), but IMO Peter is the most destructive puncher in the HW division. I agree that there are alot of wirey boxers who are real bangers (Hearns as you say, Pinto is another that springs to mind), its down to the leverage and speed that they generate.
Who has Peter stopped to indicate his ferocious power. Jeremy Williams was a blown up cruiserweight who was well past it, and how has always had a suspect chin.
I see your point, but he hasn't fought many top level opponents yet and i'm not saying that he''ll knock them out when he does as he is quite sluggish and fairly easy to outbox (especially when he's up against the top men in the division, but when he lands a decent shot it is usually game over in emphatic style.
Hes also got 22 wins inside the distance (out of his 26 wins), 18 in the first 3 rounds, 20 in the first 4, you've got to put the opponents into perspective, but it still demonstrates his power IMO
Posted: 18 Jul 2006, 11:01
by Chambers2
Terence wrote:Chambers2 wrote:Terence wrote:Look how bulky Bruno was and his power, for me, was always of the clubbing variety. Guys with skinnyish arms and long muscles are always the best punchers as they get more snap and speed into their shots, Hearns being a case in point.
I don't see Sam Peter as being as destructive a puncher as some maintain, he iced Williams yet he seems heavy-handed more than anything else.
I usually agree with you (especially re: Audley), but IMO Peter is the most destructive puncher in the HW division. I agree that there are alot of wirey boxers who are real bangers (Hearns as you say, Pinto is another that springs to mind), its down to the leverage and speed that they generate.
Chambers, for my money that KO catapulted Peter too high in terms of power, he swings with intent but ther eis no real snap in his shots for my money. The fight with Toney will tell us more but I see Toney picking those swings off and boxing his ears off. If he was a truly awesome, crisp hitter he'd have kept Wlad down rather than clubbing him down. Sanders, for me, hit harder than Sam.
Also, I'm going off memory here also, wasn't Williams coming in firing and with his chin up in the air when he got clipped. It was a slow punch high on technique but was heavy as opposed to the type of left hook Toney took Nunn out with or McCallum destroyed Curry with. I don't see a big heavyweight hitter right now, Valuev is a heavy hitter but seems to punch from the elbow and relies on his bulk too much.
I'm still with you on Big Aud' though, if only they knew what he has in store
Oh Yes!!!
I'm not saying Peter is a snappy puncher, but when he does land they stay hit. I agree with you about Sanders being a bigger puncher than Sam, but Sanders had reasonable size for a HW and exceptional speed for a BIG un.
I reckon Toney boxes Peters ears off when they meet
Posted: 18 Jul 2006, 11:06
by nickd
Terence wrote:You expect a top-heavy KO record at heavyweight though, for me I see him swing and he is more clubber than hitter. Toney will sort him out and he should have kept Wlad down with his shots, they clubbed rather than struck Wlad clean but still Wlad is Wlad.
Face it boys Audley is going nowhere. Give it up!
You're going to end up with more egg on your face than a lesbian porn star who specialises in eating-out menstrual women
Audley lost go Blimp Williams and then Dominick Guinn.... Skelton would tear him a new one.
What exactly do you think he's going to achieve from here then?
Posted: 18 Jul 2006, 11:19
by nickd
Terence wrote:nickd wrote:Terence wrote:You expect a top-heavy KO record at heavyweight though, for me I see him swing and he is more clubber than hitter. Toney will sort him out and he should have kept Wlad down with his shots, they clubbed rather than struck Wlad clean but still Wlad is Wlad.
You're going to end up with more egg on your face than a lesbian porn star who specialises in eating-out menstrual women
Audley lost go Blimp Williams and then Dominick Guinn.... Skelton would tear him a new one.
What exactly do you think he's going to achieve from here then?
Unify the titles, make a line of quality defences, reign for ten years due to crytogenetics (I'm not even sure that exists) and enter the HOF as the greatest heavyweight of all time. His recent run of form as been a clever ploy to seperate the wheat from the chaffe fan-wise.
You will see, you will know, you will convert
Now I know you're fornicating around!
The sooner Harrison is KO'd and the whole charade put to bed the better.
Posted: 18 Jul 2006, 11:28
by nickd
Posted: 18 Jul 2006, 11:55
by Chambers2
He needs to be able to keep up a decent workrate and let his hands go more, hopefully McGirt is the man to get it out of him.
COME ON OUR AUDLEY, START GETTING MEDIEVAL ON THEIR ASSES!!!
Posted: 18 Jul 2006, 11:59
by nickd
Harrison will never have a decent workrate face it! He's not only gunshy but barely has more stamina reserves that Butterbean.
