BoxRec

I never said anything that you stated!

I'm not talking about they're skill-level...I'm talking about what they each accomplished in the ring and how similar each are in that department and the worth of they're accomplishments!

Hell, many fighters, Howard Davis for example was very, very skilled in the ring, but that did not translate to the best success in the ring.

I always say that you cannot really tell anything about a fighters career from looking at they're records alone, but there are some things that are common sense when it comes to stats and some stats can be used to compare, but like I say, you will not learn how a fighter fought by they're record alone, but a person can certainly seek out a fighters success through stats.

barry wrote:I'm not talking about they're skill-level...I'm talking about what they each accomplished in the ring and how similar each are in that department and the worth of they're accomplishments!

Hell, many fighters, Howard Davis for example was very, very skilled in the ring, but that did not translate to the best success in the ring.

I always say that you cannot really tell anything about a fighters career from looking at they're records alone, but there are some things that are common sense when it comes to stats and some stats can be used to compare, but like I say, you will not learn how a fighter fought by they're record alone, but a person can certainly seek out a fighters success through stats.

I agree with you here - And if I over-simplified what you have been saying above ....my apologizes.

With that said - I have no question both Carbajal and H. Gonzalez are a whole level above A. Gatti - In terms of both skills and what they accomplished in the ring -

Both Carbajal and Gonzalez were top champions in their era's - This is without question - And while their 2nd and 3rd fights were not as action packed as their first barn-burner.....they were still good fights between two of the best little men in the Biz -

H. Gonzalez simply put winning above excitment (in the last two fights)....and took care of business.


A. Gatti is fun to watch....but beatable as hell!! That is the bottom line. Neither Carbajal nor Gonzalez were ever that -

>>>In terms of both skills and what they accomplished in the ring<<<

In skill yes, in accomplishments no!!!

There is little doubt that they were better skilled than Gatti, but what are the accomplishments that put those two a level above Gatti because I'm real interested in what they accomplished that was so much superior to Gatti...Ferocity is unable to state what it is so maybe you can help!


>>>A. Gatti is fun to watch....but beatable as hell!! That is the bottom line. Neither Carbajal nor Gonzalez were ever that<<<

If that was so then they would have been undefeated longer than they was...Gonzalez was very beatable as he did not have the best chin...it was a decent chin, but he could be taken out by one shot as all three of the men who beat him did. Carbajal was beatable as well as Gonzalez showed when he easily out-pointed Carbajal.

barry wrote:As to they're opposition...truly the only A level talent that Carbajal faced, other than Gonzalez, was Jorge Arce and probably Mauricio Pastrana, Melchor Cob Castro, Jake Matlala and Muangchai Kittikasem...the rest were B level fighters.

For Gonzalez the other A level opposition that he faced was Jung-Koo Chang and probably Melchor Cob Castro and maybe Saman Sorjaturong (though many would argue that he is not an A level fighter, but lets give him the benfit of the doubt).

For Gatti, the other A level opposition that he faced other than De La Hoya and Mayweather was Leonard Dorin, Gabe Ruelas, probably Tracy Harris Patterson and Jesse James Leija…the rest were arguably B level opponents.

All very similar…is it not? And if not then why?

As far as facing ranked fighters, I would be willing to bet the title to my Jeep that Gatti fought more top ten ranked opponents than either Carbajal, or Gonzalez, but I don’t really want to put the time into proving that, but it would be some more pretty strong evidence to support my position.

Leija and Ruelas were somewhat past it and above their natural weight. Dorin wasn't really a class A fighter, Patterson was excellent but he was also way above himnatural weight, he was a very small super bantamweight who was a class act but always took too long pulling the trigger. some feel gatti should be 1-1 with patterson, due to the controversial (maybe debatable is better) nature of the 1st fight

Another good name for Carbajal and Gonzalez was Kwang Sun Kim, I think he was the 88 olympic silver medallist, he could actually fight quite well though he lost to bith

If Melchor Cob Castro, Jung-Koo Chang, Jake Matlala, or Mauricio Pastrana are A level then so are an aged Ruelas and Leija. Leija had just come off one of the best performances of his career against amateur Olympian Francisco Bojado and Ruelas, well he was certainly not prime, but he was still quite fresh.

Hell, Jung Koo Chang was quite past it when Gonzalesz beat him and Carbajal lost to three of the six A level fighters he faced. Nit-picking about the fighters can go on all day and can be positioned to favor any fighter.

barry wrote:>>>In terms of both skills and what they accomplished in the ring<<<

In skill yes, in accomplishments no!!!

There is little doubt that they were better skilled than Gatti, but what are the accomplishments that put those two a level above Gatti because I'm real interested in what they accomplished that was so much superior to Gatti...Ferocity is unable to state what it is so maybe you can help!


>>>A. Gatti is fun to watch....but beatable as hell!! That is the bottom line. Neither Carbajal nor Gonzalez were ever that<<<

If that was so then they would have been undefeated longer than they was...Gonzalez was very beatable as he did not have the best chin...it was a decent chin, but he could be taken out by one shot as all three of the men who beat him did. Carbajal was beatable as well as Gonzalez showed when he easily out-pointed Carbajal.

Carbajal was easy to beat....because he lost two RAZOR CLOSE DEC (SD and MD) to another p4p top Jr. Fly in the World?? - That is some curious and perverted logic there -

Yes Carbajal lost two close DEC's to Gonzalez....because Gonzalez himself was a hell of a fighter -

Suggesting that because Gonzalez and Carbajal weren't undefeated shows they were as easy to beat as Gatti is also absolute foolishness.

Humberto Gonzalez lost to two other all-time great Jr. Fly's ( that being Carbajal and Sorjaturong....two big punchers...who were taking a beating before landing their big bombs!) - Gonzalez first loss came via an upset KO loss to R. Pascua (with a picture perfect shot).

But for you to try sugest Gonzalez was as beatable as Gatti is simply laughable. It is foolishness beyond needing to take this conversation any further. (ditto that for Carbajal)

As for accomplishments -


Gonzalez won 14 world title fights -

M. Carbajal won a world title just a little over ONE year into his pro career. And did so by beating the tough M. Kittikasem via KO -

Carbajal won a total of 13 world title fights (15 if you count the WBO).

A. Gatti on the other hand has won 7 world title fights (Vs much easier competition during those fights....IMO). And when he has faced someone of real quality (like Gonzalez Vs Carbajal facing each other 3 times...in three classic fights)........When Gatti has ever stepped up he has been blown out and blown out badly.

A. Gatti's biggest win is Vs another B-level fighter M. Ward (and he even lost to him once).

Matlala was excellent and was fighting at his best when he got Carbajal. Jake beat a lot of good fighters, Burgos, Weir, Clinton. He was a 4' 10 Qawi and to achieve what he did at his age, and on the road, makes him extraordinary. Leija and Ruelas were never that good in their primes, when they were troubling Azumah Nelson (who was slowing down)

Kwang Sun Kim could fight...so could guys like Pete Taliefero and Wilson Rodriguez.

I'm not, nor have I ever said that they did not fight good opposition, because they did…Gonzalez more so than Carbajal, or that Gatti was superior to the fighters...I've just been saying that they're opposition is in no way superior to that which Gatti has faced of which the facts of the issue clearly point out and that Gatti has accomplished just as much as Carbajal and Gonzalez in the pro ring, more so really, but as I have been saying they are all three very similar and if Carbajal and Gonzalez can be elected to the HOF based on they’re accomplishments, then Gatti would deserve it just as much as those two. Personally I would not have any three in the HOF…not right now anyway…maybe several years down the road...does that mean that they were not excellent fighters...no it doesn't, but compared to others, they just simply did not accomplish enough to validate a HOF career in my eyes, which there are several others in the HOF who really shouldn't be and again it doesn't make them bad fighters...just not the very elite of all-time.

Gatti is not going to be in anyone’s top 20 lists unless it is a list for excitement, toughness, or heart, but for being the best of a division he simply is not going to make the cut at any of the divisions that he fought in, but that does not diminish what he has done in the ring. I just looked up the IBRO Flyweight rating…Gonzalez is 17 and Carbajal 20. Ranked in front of them are several other flyweights that are not in the Hall of Fame, though they probably should be…they certainly fought more top fighters than several fighters that are in the HOF.

>>>Suggesting that because Gonzalez and Carbajal weren't undefeated shows they were as easy to beat as Gatti is also absolute foolishness.<<<

Jesus...Do I have to draw things out in a fornicating picture. No where did I ever state that Gonzalez, or Carbajal were as easy to beat as Gatti...this making up shit...is that what some people do when they can not present any facts to a situation?

>>>Humberto Gonzalez lost to two other all-time great Jr. Fly's ( that being Carbajal and Sorjaturong....two big punchers...who were taking a beating before landing their big bombs!) - Gonzalez first loss came via an upset KO loss to R. Pascua (with a picture perfect shot).<<<

Sorjaturong and all-time great…sorry, but he was far from it and a he was a hell of a lot easier to beat than Gatti…in fact his style was very similar to Gatti. He was a big puncher no doubt, but all-time great, sorry he don’t that cut.

>>>But for you to try sugest Gonzalez was as beatable as Gatti is simply laughable. It is foolishness beyond needing to take this conversation any further. (ditto that for Carbajal)<<<

As I said, do I need to draw a fornicating picture…you certainly don’t seem able to comprehend simple sentences and the making up shit is about as worthless as it gets. Again…as I said before…never did I suggest that Gonzalez, or Carbajal were as beatable as Gatti…I said they were beatable, which they were…very beatable…but quit with the making shit up!!!!


>>>Gonzalez won 14 world title fights<<<

True

>>>>M. Carbajal won a world title just a little over ONE year into his pro career. And did so by beating the tough M. Kittikasem via KO - Carbajal won a total of 13 world title fights (15 if you count the WBO).<<<<

Sorry, I don’t count the WBO…only fans who have started watching boxing within the past ten years, or so consider the WBO to be legit…the rest of us were around and recall when they came into being and that they’re ratings has never improved…there are no different than the IBO, IBA or any other alphabet title…though the same can be said of all the orgs now including the WBA, WBC and IBF.

>>>A. Gatti on the other hand has won 7 world title fights (Vs much easier competition during those fights....IMO). And when he has faced someone of real quality (like Gonzalez Vs Carbajal facing each other 3 times...in three classic fights)........When Gatti has ever stepped up he has been blown out and blown out badly. Gatti's biggest win is Vs another B-level fighter M. Ward (and he even lost to him once).<<<<

It’s funny how after stating that Gatti won 7 title fights you had to add the "against weaker opposition", yet you failed to mention the Marfcos Pacheco's, the Leon Salazar's, the Hector Patri's and many other similar that Carbajal defended against and you failed to mention the weak opposition that Gonzalez faced like Jorge Rivera, Jung Lim and other B and C level fighters, typical that you would only speak negative of Gatti yet praise the others…that’s not only so visibly-bias…it’s laughable, but predictable, very predictable!

I’m done with this childish debate…no matter what kind of facts may be shoved in a couple of your faces you don't know what to do with them, so you start making shit up and just continuie with the crap! Why don’t you cats try to learn something about boxing and come back and talk to me in about twenty years when you have learned something, like how to comprehend sentences, but more so when you learn how to fairly compare fighters!

viciousmaussa---Matlala was a really good fighter, but he was an old guy who was still fighting good...sort of like Jesse James Leija.

barry wrote:Kwang Sun Kim could fight...so could guys like Pete Taliefero and Wilson Rodriguez.

I'm not, nor have I ever said that they did not fight good opposition, because they did…Gonzalez more so than Carbajal, or that Gatti was superior to the fighters...I've just been saying that they're opposition is in no way superior to that which Gatti has faced of which the facts of the issue clearly point out and that Gatti has accomplished just as much as Carbajal and Gonzalez in the pro ring, more so really, but as I have been saying they are all three very similar and if Carbajal and Gonzalez can be elected to the HOF based on they’re accomplishments, then Gatti would deserve it just as much as those two. Personally I would not have any three in the HOF…not right now anyway…maybe several years down the road...does that mean that they were not excellent fighters...no it doesn't, but compared to others, they just simply did not accomplish enough to validate a HOF career in my eyes, which there are several others in the HOF who really shouldn't be and again it doesn't make them bad fighters...just not the very elite of all-time.

Gatti is not going to be in anyone’s top 20 lists unless it is a list for excitement, toughness, or heart, but for being the best of a division he simply is not going to make the cut at any of the divisions that he fought in, but that does not diminish what he has done in the ring. I just looked up the IBRO Flyweight rating…Gonzalez is 17 and Carbajal 20. Ranked in front of them are several other flyweights that are not in the Hall of Fame, though they probably should be…they certainly fought more top fighters than several fighters that are in the HOF.

Barry you clearly have a hard-on for Gatti (and it is you that refuses to stay intellectually honest in this discussion) -

How are you trying to suggest that by Gatti winning 7 world title fights.....it is the same (no..wait...MORE) then what Gonzalez (14 world title fight wins)...and Carbajal (15 world title fight wins) have both accomplished.

Furthermore both Carbjal and Gonzalez were ranked and stayed ranked in the P4P list much longer then A. Gatti ever did.

You have also again gone the way of your perverted logic trying to suggest where Carbajal and Gonzalez are ranked regarding the IBRO Flyweight rating...... They are NOT Fly Wt's.....they were Jr. Fly Wt's.....there is a difference without question (especially considering they never fought in that weight class...and so of course they will be knocked down slightly in any Fly Wt rating system....as they should be).

Where is Gatti ranked in the Jr. Middle Weight Division?? (that makes about as much sense as you are trying to make here).

Reality is...both Carbajal and Gonzalez not only acheived more inside the ring....both were clearly better fighters then Gatti as well. Both were ranked longer in P4P categories too boot while they were active.

barry wrote:viciousmaussa---Matlala was a really good fighter, but he was an old guy who was still fighting good...sort of like Jesse James Leija.

imo he was an on-off fighter who had an Indian Summer, where everything all seemed to come tofether. he had some really good nights in England, when he beat Cantwell twice, Weir twice and Clinton

I do count the WBO, especially in these lighter classes. Tapia, Mark Johnson, Matlala, Carbajal all held WBO titles. Carbajal's was less authentic/more suspect, mainly cos the guy he took it from should never have been a 'world champion' & that he won it after losing the rematches with Gonzalez, whereby Gonzalez was the true champ and Carbajal was - sort of - fighting for sloppy seconds. But then again, some feel that carbajal won either the rematch or the rubber match with Gonzalez...

barry wrote:
There is no denying the importance that Carbajal and Gonzalez played to the financial status of the smallest fighters, but that is not something they did in the ring...it's due to what they did in the ring, but it is not an issue that relates to they're fighting accomplishments.

You are dumb fornicate contradicting yourself.

Gatti lost to Angel Manfredy who lost to Spadafora and to Johnson they beat Manfredy soundedly, even Julio Diaz beat Manfredy but got robbed. Ivan Robinson who Jesse James Lejia beat soundedly along with Antonio Diaz. Then he wins the title at 140 by way of being vacent, wining it by koing Leonard Dorin who looked like he ate one too many dounuts and his heart was clearly not in the fight. And Manfredy who doesnt have the greatest chin, was not even knocked down by the over rated club fighter in Gatti.

Delahoya and Mayweather only destroy BUMS, AND LESSER FIGHTERS. Gattis destruction proves his lack of talent.

Gatti went to wars with another Glorified club fighter in Micky Ward who was no world class fighter. Gatti is no Michael Carbajal or Humberto Gonzalez.

Gatti struggled with the unknown Joe Hutchinson, who? Exactly, if Gatti opponnets weren't picked at the right time, then Gatti had trouble with all of them.

They picked up Joey Gamache, to make Gatti look like a Puncher, and everybody who knows about Joey Gamache knows that his chin is made of china.

Funny, how now you say, you don't think he belongs in the HOF. Good, now you're coming down to reality.

They let Gatti in then your dumb ass has to also make excuss for the list of fighters who beat Gatti in his prime and allow them into the hall of fame.

I LOL! You glorifing a club-fighter. Go and read some more books, kid.

I know i don't express myself as good at some dickhead named Barry, who has a heart-on for Gatti, but for him to say, Gatti fought better competition over Carbajal and Gonzalez is laughable.

And the others who responded, thanks, you guys made great points with valid facts, that barry is still trying to make some shit up so he can respond too.

HEY BARRY! I bet if you tried you can also make Arturos competition look as good as Joe Louis. Or how about Rocky Marciano.....yeah right!

Barry, you are a joke, to compare Gatti to Gonzalez and Carbajal. I was going to respond again, in greater detail, but the other posters here have done a great job already pointing out facts about Carbajal and Gonzalez.

Bert Sugar and Barry can go to the chappell and marry and fall in love as they both have a heart on for Arturo Gatti.

>>>Jesus Chong is just another guy who lost 1/3 of his fights, but Chong was a solid fighter who continually took on top-30 opponents.<<<

Decagon---For starters...It's cute how you always wait for one, or two people to start something with me and then you come running to join in like a scared kid...typical and classic!

As usual, you are just sore because I proved you to be wrong yet again this time in the thread about Jess McMahon...so give it up...even in twenty years you'll still be an idiot that makes quotes like "Stanley Ketchel is nothing but a 160 pound John Ruiz."

Unlike you I have seen most of Chongs fights, but the reality of the situation is this...I know that Chong was no more better than the likes of Wilson Rodriguez...he was a good club-fighter and that was it...and for the record...Mexican's don't take the Mexican titles seriously, well, no more seriously than any other regional title, unless it is something new that has just started to happen. Now stop being so bitter because you consistently get made a fool of...if you would actually start doing a little reading you might actually learn a little something to where you won't be making the silly, clueless comments like "Winky Wright would knock out both Bob Fitzsimmons and Jim Corbett."

Stupid is as stupid does though!!!

As to the other posts...as I said, I'm done wasting my time so sorry...I didn't even read them!