BoxRec

Savold, but Freddie Beshore was a very good fighter as well. Louis still had the punching power, he just did not have the same speed, or top coordination to unleash it, but he could certainly still knock an opponents head off!

I rethought this particular point right after I submitted it and altered my view. Just because he didnt ko everyone he faced in his comback doesnt mean he couldnt. His prime power was probably intact but his ability to chase a foe down, who has no inclination to mix it up, was what was now missing.

Hey I just noticed Im past 1000 post! About time!

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:Jack Dempsey, Sonny Liston, Joe Frazier, Rocky Marciano


heres my list


1. sonny liston
2. rocky marciano
3. jack dempsey
4. joe frazier

1. Marciano
2. Liston
3. Dempsey
4. Frazier

Good call Brock, but I just see Marciano edging it.

Rating Rockys chin over Listons and Fraziers is just another example of how overrated Marciano is... could Rocky have gone 39 rounds with Ali in 3 fights like Frazier did?.... no way!... c'mon guys wake up and give Frazier some of the credit that he's due... I must say that if Rocky was black and Frazier was white things may be a whole lot different imo.... it annoys me that so many people pick Rocky above Frazier when all the evidence to the unbiased eye points to Frazier being the far superior fighter!....

Terence wrote:1 Liston - He took some big hits from the huge hitting Williams and Leotis had to pull out big shots to put Sonny away.

The other three I could quibble about any placement. Frazier went down a number of times but his recovery power was good. The other two went down but never to as big a hitter as Foreman in my view. I'd be happy to put Frazier at #2 and Rocky at #3. Frazier was put down by some big hitting big guys, the other two were put down by lighter hitting guys.

Liston had a VG chin, but wasn't he dropped by Marshall, a LH? And the shot that Ali dropped him with wasn't exactly a Shavers type power shot. And I don't want to get into the whole Cleveland Williams thing again...

Terence wrote:

The Great John L wrote:

Terence wrote:Partly my reason is pragmatic. Sonny was a destroyer but was a floating fortress rather than an 'at 'em' attack ship. The other guys got floored due to their rushes, they left their chins out to dry more and all were put down heavily in this way. If being dropped by a LH is the case wouldn't Frazier top the list as one who did not get hit by a light man and floored?

Good post, and sound reasoning. Actually, I don’t think you’d be too far off putting these 4 in just about any order.

Terence wrote:I agree, I wouldn/t be outraged with any order. All the guys had top-quality chins and one of them (Frazier) had top-quality recovery time, he lacked a bit of smarts though for when he did get up!

Gotta agree with that!!

Decagon wrote:

The Great John L wrote:Liston had a VG chin, but wasn't he dropped by Marshall, a LH? And the shot that Ali dropped him with wasn't exactly a Shavers type power shot. And I don't want to get into the whole Cleveland Williams thing again...

Muhammad Ali was dropped by a light heavyweight too, remember? So was Rocky Marciano.

Dec, you’ll have to help me out here. Ali was dropped by Banks, Cooper, Frazier and Wepner. None of them were light heavyweights. While Cooper was a very small HW, I don’t think he ever had a fight in the LH division. Is that what you were thinking of?

OTOH, while Marshall did fight the majority of his fights at HW, he fought in both the HW and LH division off and on for a few years.

Decagon wrote:

The Great John L wrote:Liston had a VG chin, but wasn't he dropped by Marshall, a LH? And the shot that Ali dropped him with wasn't exactly a Shavers type power shot. And I don't want to get into the whole Cleveland Williams thing again...

Muhammad Ali was dropped by a light heavyweight too, remember? So was Rocky Marciano.

Terence wrote:I thought he got tagged and his jaw broken by Marshall? Not dropped? Irregardless, the Ali shot, I think, had a whole heap of background to it, Ali threw that shot all the way from 1964 before it landed in 1965.

That's actually a different fight. In their first bout, Marshall broke Liston's jaw. In their second bout, Marshall dropped Liston.

Please enlighten us as to what Light-heavyweight dropped Ali!??.... it seems that I missed that one!...

I sort of agree with Terrence and The Great John L that this is pretty close. Dempsey seems to be the weakest arguement. He was hurt/knocked down by the most opponents.
He was hurt or knocked down in several fights- Firpo, Gunboat Smith Carpentier (to a lesser extent), Flynn (if you accept that this fight was on the level) Tunney.
Most of the really hard punchers that Dempsey beat were knocked out early by Dempsey.

Liston knockout loss against Martin shouldn't be factored in since he was well past his prime. It's difficult to to say about the 2nd Ali fight. The Marty Marshall knockdown seems legit though.

Frazier's knockdown in his 2nd pro fight and his 12 th pro fight should be thrown out as well. True Foreman hammered him pretty good,but Foreman hit much harder than anyone that Marciano,Liston or Dempsey fought.
As mentioned Marciano was only knocked down twice.

Frazier, Liston and Marciano all proved that they good chins; however none of were in alot of fights with big puncher. They each had a few fights against good punchers, but none against a tremendous puncher such as Foreman (excpet for Frazier) or for that matter Liston,Marciano,Frazier or Dempsey.

Gonboat Smith never knocked Dempsey down...Dempsey put Smith down 9 times, but he was never downed by Smith and as to the other knock downs he suffered, I must reinterate, Dempsey was up almost immediately to really put a hurting on his foe, eexcept when he was an old man who had fought only a couple of times in three, or four years and even then, with weakend legs, he still managed to last out a bout that took a pretty good drubbing in. Aside from Marciano, none of those mentioned had better recovery time than Dempsey...certainly not Frazier...there was no recovery for him against Foreman.

Could Marciano go the rounds that Frazier did...absolutely, could Dempsey...well if Dempsey fought 39 rounds with Ali then I would say that Dempsey knocksout Ali in 39 rounds, even though I consider Ali the best all-time. The fact that Liston and Frazier were both knocked out is more convincing than two fighters that were never stopped, unless you want to count the Dempsey-Flynn farce as being legit, which it might have been, but i don't think so! Apart from that neither Dempsey, or Marciano were ever stopped, TKO, or KO and being that both Frazier and Liston were both stopped...more than once, well as I always say...actual FACTS always outweigh opinion! And sorry, bnut I count Dempsey-Tunney and I count Liston-Martin and the others that you want to excuse the fighters from...unless there was a level of falsness in the bouts, which I don't seem to recall in any except Dempsey-Flynn!

Well, the only half way decent guy Louis stopped in his comeback was Lee Savold , and when I say halfway decent I'm being REALLY generous. And Savold was no stranger to getting knocked out. Its hard to judge his power at that stage of his career when the guys he crippled were really not that hard to cripple.

savold no stranger to getting knocked out? savold was very durable. prior to the louis fight he had not been knocked out in 5 years since getting knocked out by muderous puncher elmer ray. prior to the ray fight he hadnt been knocked out in another 5 years where he was knocked out by huge hard punching black contender harry bobo. savold was very durable yet louis knocked him out with 1 punch! savold took a lot of bombs off marciano without going down!

the one,


omelio agramonte was the best contender louis beat during that period. agramonte was better than savold, much better. have u seen agramonte on film? i suggest getting agramonte vs louis II GREAT FIGHT.

agramonte was a flashy boxer with awesome speed, great mobility, excellent footwork. he was a cutie.....had some very good moves. he also had a sharp right hand. he was like a poor mans jersey joe walcott which is no disgrace.


agramonte was a good fighter......underated and louis easily boxed his ears off twice the 2nd time he nearly knocked agramonte out with one right hand.......agramonte was down for 9 in the 2nd round.



u would like agramonte on film i suggest watching him

Rating Rockys chin over Listons and Fraziers is just another example of how overrated Marciano is... could Rocky have gone 39 rounds with Ali in 3 fights like Frazier did?.... no way!..

why not? rocky had a great chin. he took flush bombs off jersey joe walcott for 12 rounds. walcott hit much harder than ali


i would pick rocky over the past his prime 1970s ali. the 1960s ali is a different story

john L..........u must realize liston suffered a flash KD to marshall when he was off balance very early in his career. liston was just a young smaller very green fighter in his 10th fight. its like frazier getting dropped by michael bruce



-liston was not knocked down by ali, liston took a blatant dive


- liston in his prime too flush bombs from huge hard punching sluggers 6'3 210lb + nino valdez, cleveland williams, and mike dejohn without blinking

barry wrote:Aside from Marciano, none of those mentioned had better recovery time than Dempsey...certainly not Frazier...there was no recovery for him against Foreman.

Of course in all fairness, I don't think Dempsey, Liston or Marciano would have been able to recover against Foreman either. Just ask your self, who did they fight that was comparable to Foreman?

barry wrote:The fact that Liston and Frazier were both knocked out is more convincing than two fighters that were never stopped, unless you want to count the Dempsey-Flynn farce as being legit, which it might have been, but i don't think so!

Here we go with the boxrec revisionist history. Why not count the Flynn fight? It's much more likely that Dempsey got caught cold in that fight than it was fixed. Are we to simply ignore those fights that don't go the way we expected? Are we all going to use the same logic that Wlad fans use and explain away every loss as an anomoly? Come on, Frazier got stopped by Foreman and Dempsey got stopped by Flynn. If it makes it any easier for you, Frazier was stopped twice by big George.

barry wrote: Could Marciano go the rounds that Frazier did...absolutely, could Dempsey...well if Dempsey fought 39 rounds with Ali then I would say that Dempsey knocksout Ali in 39 rounds, even though I consider Ali the best all-time.

Dempsey would have been a very tough fight for any version of Ali, but if Shavers, Foreman, Frazier, Lyle, Liston, Bonavena, Quarry and Norton couldn’t stop Ali, I think Ali could have found a way to go the distance with Dempsey. I also think Ali would have won that matchup.

Terence wrote:I'll speak up for Jack briefly. He needed to have god recovery time as he boxed under the no-neutral corner rule so could be clobbered almost immediately. Under this rule Fraizer would be gone sooner versus George and possibly Oscar may have taken him out. We should give Dempsey a little extra credit for this.

Very good point!

>>>Of course in all fairness, I don't think Dempsey, Liston or Marciano would have been able to recover against Foreman either. Just ask your self, who did they fight that was comparable to Foreman?<<<

Again, I'll stick with actual FACTS...you can opinion all you want and for the record...there is nothing to say that Firpo did not hit just as hard as Foreman...of course you're opinion will differ!


>>>Here we go with the boxrec revisionist history. Why not count the Flynn fight? It's much more likely that Dempsey got caught cold in that fight than it was fixed. Are we to simply ignore those fights that don't go the way we expected?<<<

No, I count all fights, even the bogus ones, but I have sense enough and ability to downplay the importance of a fight that was not on the level as opposed to a fight that was one the level, which some people seem to have difficulty doing!

>>>Of course in all fairness, I don't think Dempsey, Liston or Marciano would have been able to recover against Foreman either. Just ask your self, who did they fight that was comparable to Foreman?<<<

Dempsey fought several fighters comparable to Foreman! No very few had the overall power that Foreman did, but in terms of ability Dempsey faced fighters who were a lot more skilled than the "Mummy." Dempsey would tear into Foreman and more than likely knock him out. Foreman’s style was perfect for Dempsey and being that you seem to have problems realizing that power alone very rarely works, though it worked against Frazier, but very rarely does power alone do the job...especially if that power is going against an opponent who can really fight…as Dempsey could…not to mention that Dempsey absolutely feasted on lumbering heavyweights like Foreman! There is a good chance that Foreman would win, but there is just as good a chance that Dempsey wins…based on the style of the fighters and what they actually did in the ring…Dempsey would probably brutalize Foreman in the same kind of manner that he did Willard…and before you start trying to make up shit that does not mean that I think Willard is in Foreman’s class! Also, from watching both Foreman-Frazier bouts I don't see any punches that landed on Frazier that were any harder than those that Firpo landed against Dempsey and knocked him out of the ring, though unlike Frazier, Dempsey recovered very quickly and went about dismantling Firpo.

You can mention all the “what-if’s,” or “I’ll bet’s” you want…without something very solid and factual to back your opinion, or claim then it is nothing but the usual hot-air! I think I will choose to follow actual FACT…as I usually do!

barry wrote:No, I count all fights, even the bogus ones, but I have sense enough and ability to downplay the importance of a fight that was not on the level as opposed to a fight that was one the level, which some people seem to have difficulty doing!

OK barry, please present your FACTS that the Flynn-Dempsey fight was not on the level. You seem to want to attack whenever anyone's opinion differs from yours, and you are now implying that I am ignoring some FACT that everyone should be aware of. Here's another chance to prove your great knowledge.

barry wrote:Dempsey fought several fighters comparable to Foreman! No very few had the overall power that Foreman did, but in terms of ability Dempsey faced fighters who were a lot more skilled than the "Mummy." Dempsey would tear into Foreman and more than likely knock him out. Foreman’s style was perfect for Dempsey and being that you seem to have problems realizing that power alone very rarely works, though it worked against Frazier, but very rarely does power alone do the job...especially if that power is going against an opponent who can really fight…as Dempsey could…not to mention that Dempsey absolutely feasted on lumbering heavyweights like Foreman! There is a good chance that Foreman would win, but there is just as good a chance that Dempsey wins…based on the style of the fighters and what they actually did in the ring…Dempsey would probably brutalize Foreman in the same kind of manner that he did Willard…and before you start trying to make up shit that does not mean that I think Willard is in Foreman’s class! Also, from watching both Foreman-Frazier bouts I don't see any punches that landed on Frazier that were any harder than those that Firpo landed against Dempsey and knocked him out of the ring, though unlike Frazier, Dempsey recovered very quickly and went about dismantling Firpo.

You can mention all the “what-if’s,” or “I’ll bet’s” you want…without something very solid and factual to back your opinion, or claim then it is nothing but the usual hot-air! I think I will choose to follow actual FACT…as I usually do!

Again you seem to be somewhat delusional about what a FACT is. Maybe you should re-read your FACTS in the first paragraph and explain exactly how these are FACTS.

And no one said that Dempsey didn't fight fighters more skilled than Foreman. Clearly he never he fought anyone like Foreman,a nd include the woefully unskilled Firpo. But of course, these are all irrefuttable FACTS, not hot air and pompous posturing like you are spewing.

Why are you so hostile? Go back to your basement and try to research what a fact is and then come back and join the adults. When you can define the word FACT, then maybe we'll begin to take you seriously.

barry wrote: Dempsey fought several fighters comparable to Foreman! No very few had the overall power that Foreman did, but in terms of ability Dempsey faced fighters who were a lot more skilled than the "Mummy." Dempsey would tear into Foreman and more than likely knock him out.

How would the 13 stone Dempsey tear into the 17 stone Foreman and more than likely knock him out? It would be a mismatch if he tried, Foreman would take his head off.

dr_devious wrote:

barry wrote: Dempsey fought several fighters comparable to Foreman! No very few had the overall power that Foreman did, but in terms of ability Dempsey faced fighters who were a lot more skilled than the "Mummy." Dempsey would tear into Foreman and more than likely knock him out.

How would the 13 stone Dempsey tear into the 17 stone Foreman and more than likely knock him out? It would be a mismatch if he tried, Foreman would take his head off.

dr, don't try to argue this with the exhalted barry. These are FACTS and can not be argued.

>>>How would the 13 stone Dempsey tear into the 17 stone Foreman and more than likely knock him out?<<<

The exact same manner that the 13 stone Dempsey tore into the 18 stone Willard and knocked him out...any other questions?


John L...I'm not wasting my time with you...until you can get a better grasp on reality and can actually differentiate between fact and opinion then it's just a waste of time for anyone to try to enlighten you about anything. Work on it a year or two and if you have schooled yourself properly then we might have something to debate in a couple of years!

For a change...I have to say that you are right on the mark Dec!