BoxRec

walshb wrote:Joe Frazier would have steamrolled Evander over 15 rds. Too relentless, fit, busy and strong for Evander to keep him off. It takes a huge puncher to get Joe's respect. Evander hadn't got enough to outwork him and Evander's punch wasn't heavy enough to force Frazier back. Frazier at his peak was a ball of energy. Too damn rough and tough for Evander...clear UD. It's not like Evander can do an Ali and dance all night. Guys that stand in front and trade with Frazier, apart from a Foreman are always going to lose!!

Too rough and tough for Holyfield? Holyfield is as rough and tough as they come, and some claim downright dirty. Prime Holyfield has plenty of force and workright to keep Frazier off him. Holyfield had a really good punch against men smaller than him, the same size, and slightly bigger. It was when he was outweighed by 30 pounds that his punch didn't carry as much steam.

And yes, weight has a lot to do with being able to take a punch. Ever hit a 100 pound heavybag compared to a 150 pound heavybag? Much easier to knock around the 100 pound. That's why light heavyweights usually aren't successful at heavyweight! Bog Foster had a decent chin at light heavyweight, but when he moved up to heavyweight, BOOM! He was gone.

silkov wrote:

meade95 wrote:

silkov wrote:Fast hands aint everything and if Holifields hands are faster than joes theres not much in it... with respect to Evander to rate him over Frazier is a pure crime.... watch Frazier vs Ali 1 then watch Evander struggle against a 43 year old Larry Holmes... watch any of Fraziers peak fights and then watch Evander almost koed by Smoking Bert Cooper... have a peek at the difference in class of opposition... Frazier operated when the division was at its all time height in terms of talent and opposition while Evander came along when the talent pool was dying away yet still struggled against 2 all timers in their mid 40s... I've great respect for Evander but Joe Frazier is in a different league as a fighter... Fraziers top 5 all time imo while Evander is about top 15... had they fought Frazier would have murdered Evander...

There is no way in hell a 202-209 pound Joe Frazier would "murder" Holyfield.

Reality is pound for pound Holyfield was stronger then Joe (didn't hit as hard.....but was physically stronger). - We already had this go around once on here on this exact topic.....so don't need to do it again.

The reality is Joe beat some good fighters. But he also fought in a different era where he was knocking out 190 pounder's....the two bigger guys (who would be small today)...a 212 pound Ali and a 217 pound Foreman beat his as$.

16 of Frazier's wins came over guys who weighed LESS then 196 pounds.

Joe only fought 11 guys who weighed over 212 pounds. Of those he went 6-4-1 against. Hardly a wrecking ball once he faced guys with a little bit of size (with two of those guys being utter bums of the month types). So against even the slightest bit of competition Joe went 4-4-1 Vs guys with any size.

If all Evander ever fought were guys who weighed his size or less....He would have stayed the unstoppable force he was in the crusierweight division.

Furthermore to try and suggest a crafty old SOB like Holmes would not have given Joe problems just isn't accurate. Additionally Holyfield didn't "struggle" with Holmes per say (other then he didn't KO him!). He clealry won the fight on all cards....and had to fight through a terrible gash (thanks to a Holmes elbow) early on in the fight.

Holyfield had faster hands, better combination punching, had a better chin and both had huge hearts.

It would be a great fight....but IMO Holyfield wins a clear Dec after 12 rounds.

Floyd Patterson had fast hands too, would you pick him over Frazier as well?.... a peak Frazier would have demolished the 42 yearold Holmes, Frazier and Holifield are different animals, Joe was far more powerful, a natural heavyweight who used to come down from about 240 pounds for his fights, while Holifield was really a pumped up Light-heavy who to be honest made heavyweight through rather dubious modern methods!....

Yes, I wold pick Patterson over Frazier and almost every heavyweight who ever existed ... if he had Holyfield's chin. So yes, fast hands make a big difference, especially if the owner has a solid chin and good technique. Ali said the fastest and best boxer he ever fought with Floyd Patterson. His only true win over Patterson was in the rematch, which was about even, even with Floyd at age 37, and it was stopped on swelling. His first win over Patterson was over an obviously injured Patterson, who had a hurt back but still fought. Can you imagine Joe Frazier beating someone like Floyd Patterson if Patterson had Holyfield's chin? Exactly.

A peak Frazier would not have blown away 42 year Holmes or 42 year old Foreman. Both were in superb condition for the age and had 25 years plus of boxing experience in their arsenal. Holmes would have jabbed 5'11" Frazier from the outside, ripped uppercuts when Frazier boored in, and grabbed Frazier with a vice grip once Frazier got in. Holmes probably couldn't keep up the pace to win, but he would last the distance. Don't forget that Holmes was only stopped once -- against a prime Tyson in 1988, two years after he retired and with only having a short time to prepare for the fight. If Holmes had more time to prepare for Tyson and about four fights before hand, I guarantee you the Tyson-Holmes fight would have gone the distance.

I'm with Meade95 on this one: what the hell is the deal with Holyfield's wins over Foreman and Holmes? He beat them both by a wide margin, proving to his critics he could slug with the big men like Foreman and proving he could keep his composure with a nasty gash like he did against Holmes. He beat Holmes so bad to the body that he threw up after the fight. Yeah, he didn't knock him out, but who else knocked out Holmes besides Tyson?

Holyfield was by no means a small heavyeight. He was close on 15 stones and 6ft2. The size issue is not why I believe Frazier would win. I believe Frazier would be too busy and would outwork Evander. I also believe that Frazier was slightly fitter. The winner of this fight is the guy who throws and lands the most and Holy's punch was not big enough to KO Frazier. He could definitely hurt him, but that's boxing. EvanDer I also believe will not be able to push Frazier back, so Joe is at his most deadly when he's coming forward. Push Frazier back and he's a Gonner. Holy I think hasn't the Foreman brute force to do it. Joe wins an all out action packed 15 rounder by UD, Based on punch stats

walshb wrote:Holyfield was by no means a small heavyeight. He was close on 15 stones and 6ft2. The size issue is not why I believe Frazier would win. I believe Frazier would be too busy and would outwork Evander. I also believe that Frazier was slightly fitter. The winner of this fight is the guy who throws and lands the most and Holy's punch was not big enough to KO Frazier. He could definitely hurt him, but that's boxing. EvanDer I also believe will not be able to push Frazier back, so Joe is at his most deadly when he's coming forward. Push Frazier back and he's a Gonner. Holy I think hasn't the Foreman brute force to do it. Joe wins an all out action packed 15 rounder by UD, Based on punch stats

Okay I won't argue with your pick because it isn't ridiculous like some people. I think Holyfield wins, but an action packed UD is not out of the question for Joe. Walking right through Holyfield and KOing him is laughable though.

Holyfield would be fitter than Joe. Remember that Holyfield set compubox records for his first fights with Qawi and Bowe. He had a great output at his best, as admittingly did Joe. Holyfield had the punch to KO heavies his size and he had the punch to KO Frazier, but I don't think he takes Frazier out early. Holyfield could and would push Frazier back. He pushed back almost every heavyweight he fought, including Foreman, Tyson, and Lewis.

I bet this fight would break the compubox record It would have been a barnburner!

dempseyfire wrote:

meade95 wrote:

silkov wrote: Frazier fought far tougher opposition, its not the weight of the opponent but the ability... are you comparing Lewis with Foreman and Ali?... now that is ridiculous... Holifield never fought anyone remotely in that league.... jesus Holifield struggled with a 40+ Foreman....

No, I didn't compare Lewis with Foreman or Ali.

However, Ali never faced anyone Lennox's size (with his talent) either. Not at all.

Furthermore it is silly to suggest Holyfield "struggled" with Foreman and Holmes. He won clear cut, wide margin decisions over each of them. That he didn't "destory" them is you moving the goal posts. That was not Holyfield's style.

Additionally Foreman in many aspects was a different fighter at his 240 pound version then he was at his 217-222 pound younger version. He himself, admits this.

As for competition. Holyfield was facing championship caliber fighters since his 11th pro fight when he won a world title.

The reality is both are all-time greats. But the notion that Frazier would walk through Holyfield is simply silly. No 208 pound fighter was going to walk through Holyfield.

If you can't understand that basic reality no need to keep this going further. You simply refuse to be intellectually honest on the subject and that makes this go from a solid / nice back and forth of ideas......to simply someone who wants to argue and do so foolishly.

Lastly, if Holyfield only fought guys under 210 his power would look immense as well.

Best regards,

I don't see anyone bringing up Holyfield's embarassing loss to Chris Byrd, an even smaller blown up HW than Evander.

Bringing up the fact that he lost to Chris Byrd?? What the hell would that have to do with a prime Frazier Vs a prime Holyfield?

When Holyfield lost to Byrd he was 40 years old!! and he fought from the 3rd round on with one arm to boot! (tearing his rotary-cuff in his left shoulder!).

Frazier lost his last two meangingful fights when he was still basically young and in what would be many's prime's. 31 -32 years old.

I gota agree with Silkov. Frazier fought and beat the best in the era of the best. Holyfield though fantastic did struggle against Moorer, Holmes and he couldn't defeat a lazy Lennox Lewis. He lost To Bowe, which is no shame as Bowe was very very good, but Holy still never beat the class that Frazier beat. If they met, Holy would be fighting an animal who will be on top of him for 45 minutes non stop. I don't see Evander being able to KO or outwork

meade95 wrote:

dempseyfire wrote:

meade95 wrote: No, I didn't compare Lewis with Foreman or Ali.

However, Ali never faced anyone Lennox's size (with his talent) either. Not at all.

Furthermore it is silly to suggest Holyfield "struggled" with Foreman and Holmes. He won clear cut, wide margin decisions over each of them. That he didn't "destory" them is you moving the goal posts. That was not Holyfield's style.

Additionally Foreman in many aspects was a different fighter at his 240 pound version then he was at his 217-222 pound younger version. He himself, admits this.

As for competition. Holyfield was facing championship caliber fighters since his 11th pro fight when he won a world title.

The reality is both are all-time greats. But the notion that Frazier would walk through Holyfield is simply silly. No 208 pound fighter was going to walk through Holyfield.

If you can't understand that basic reality no need to keep this going further. You simply refuse to be intellectually honest on the subject and that makes this go from a solid / nice back and forth of ideas......to simply someone who wants to argue and do so foolishly.

Lastly, if Holyfield only fought guys under 210 his power would look immense as well.

Best regards,

I don't see anyone bringing up Holyfield's embarassing loss to Chris Byrd, an even smaller blown up HW than Evander.

Bringing up the fact that he lost to Chris Byrd?? What the hell would that have to do with a prime Frazier Vs a prime Holyfield?

When Holyfield lost to Byrd he was 40 years old!! and he fought from the 3rd round on with one arm to boot! (tearing his rotary-cuff in his left shoulder!).

Frazier lost his last two meangingful fights when he was still basically young and in what would be many's prime's. 31 -32 years old.

Age has nothing to do with it. Frazier was fighting world class HWs at a younger age, and with his pressure/ high work-rate swarmer style, you will burn out much quicker than if you are a boxer-puncher. Frazier post Manilla is comparable to Holyfield post Rahman.

As to the weights, a 220 lb guy's weight compared to a 185 lb guy is not in his jaw/chin . . . .this is not hitting heavybags. Ask a doctor, that weight makes no difference. Tell me how Quarry could take Lyle's bombs but Michael Grant sways in the breeze from Dominik Guinn's shots or Wladimir Klitschko gets bounced like a tennis ball by Corrie Sanders?

As for handspeed, yes Evander has a handspeed advantage (although it's not that big) Buster Mathis had faster hands then both of them . . . look what Frazier did to him.

walshb wrote:I gota agree with Silkov. Frazier fought and beat the best in the era of the best. Holyfield though fantastic did struggle against Moorer, Holmes and he couldn't defeat a lazy Lennox Lewis. He lost To Bowe, which is no shame as Bowe was very very good, but Holy still never beat the class that Frazier beat. If they met, Holy would be fighting an animal who will be on top of him for 45 minutes non stop. I don't see Evander being able to KO or outwork

When Holyfield lost to Lennox (first fight.......he beat Lennox the second fight!..that was a makeup call)....but in both those fights Holyfield was already past his prime. His punch output numbers were much lower then when he was in his late 20's, early 30's. If Evander had his "younger" legs he would have stopped Lennox.

Evander fought Lennox when he was 37 years old! - Hell Frazier was out of his prime we are to believe when he was a young 32. Put a 37 year old Frazier in with a prime Lennox and Frazier doesn't see the 8th round. He's out.

Furthermore Lennox is a damn fine fighter. Smart, cautious, and used his size tremendously well when he thought he might be at risk. Lennox size and talent would have created all sorts of problems for even a prime Frazier.

As for Holyfield struggling with Holmes (he beat him clearly....won by wide margins on all three cards). Regarding M. Moorer he TKO'd him and beat him badly in a rematch. Furthermore he lost a decision to him in their first fight only because Judge Roth mistakenly ruled the second round a 10-9 for Holyfield.....instead of the correct 10-8 (and Holyfield won the round and scored a clean knockdown). Roth has admitted since that...that was a mistake on his card.

Holyfield has fought and beat very solid competition since his 11th

What a great topic and match-up. Personally I think Joe's swarming style favors him a bit in this one, especially as he would work Holy's body like no one ever did. I could see this going either way, but think Frazier wins a close decision with one KD (and a lot of swelling from Holy's shots) along the way. But like I said, I could see either winning. I'll say Joe wins 6 out of 10 times.

hebrew_hammer wrote:What a great topic and match-up. Personally I think Joe's swarming style favors him a bit in this one, especially as he would work Holy's body like no one ever did. I could see this going either way, but think Frazier wins a close decision with one KD (and a lot of swelling from Holy's shots) along the way. But like I said, I could see either winning. I'll say Joe wins 6 out of 10 times.

I can agree with this one - Though if I were betting the house with both men in their primes....I'd take Holyfield 6 out of 10.