Ambling Alp wrote:Elmer, the reason that I asked for 5 guys that I should take out of my top 20 was that you listed 5 guys that I didn't have that should be :) (Buchanan,Laguna,Mosesely,Petrolle, and DeJesus).
I had Arguello because he did have some nice wins at this weight. He beat Ramirez,Boza Edwards, Watt, Noel, and Mancini at this weight.
De La Hoya beat Molina, and crushed Ruelas,Hernandez, and Leija. His power at this weight class was awesome. This may have been his best weight class.
McFarland's biggest win was over Freddie Welsh. (He also had a couple of draws with Welsh, whom most people would agree is a top 10 lightweight) He also beat some other good fighters of his era, such as Jimmy Britt and Owen Moran (Newspaper decision).
There are some borderline calls, but I thought Arguello and De La Hoya did enough at this weight class to be consider top 20, and McFarland without question.
Sammy Mandell beat Rocky Kansas, Jimmy McClarnin and Canzoneri at this weight, so I thought he was definitely top 20.
One factor which made Armstrong so high was his win over Barney Ross. Even though it was for the welterweight title, Armstrong was within the lighweight limit. For a fighter weighing only 133.5 to beat Barney ross (who weighed 142 for the fight), that is quite an achievement.
as you mentioned Armstrong beat Ambers, and he also beat Jenkins and Baby Arizmendi.
As for Barney Ross, he did lose to Armstrong, but he have some nice wins at lightweight. He beat Petrolle twice and Canzoneri twice at this weight.
As for the guys that you suggested, I thought that they didn't quite do enough to be rated in the top 20.
Moseley beat Leija and Molina, but that's about it at this weight class.
Beside the two close wins over Laguna, Buchanans record isn't really that impressive.
DeJesus had the big win over duran, but except for the win over Ishmatsu, there really isn't anything that impressive.
Laguna did win one out of 3 against Ortiz, but lost twice to Buchanan.
Petrolle did win one out 2 against Cnazoneri, and beat Jackie Kid Berg, but otherwise there wasn't much.
Obviously Moseley, DeJesus,Petrolle,Buchanan and Laguna were very good fighters,but when you compare them the guys ahead of them, they seem to come up short.
Once again, I also want to say that often their is very little difference between one rated 5 or even 10 spots ahead of another guy.
Hello alp once again.
I will tell you FIRST why Alexis Arguello and Oscar Delahoya does not belong with the 20 top lightweights.
Why Alexis Arguello does not belong with the top 20 lightweights: First of all, although he had a good record at this weight class, Arguello ONLY had 9 fights at this weight class. He beat 4 world champions at this weight class and maybe 1 HOF. He had, like you said impressive wins but also had a doubtful decision win in the eyes of many. Many people believe that he lost to Jose Luis Ramirez and the judges gave it to him. And to topple it off, he lost by a HUGE UPSET against Vilomar Fernandez which was the second biggest upset of that year behind Ali-Spinks I of 1978. He won 5 title fights. He was more of a featherweight or jr lightweight. By the time he stepped up to lightweight he was not the same guy, but still had that punching power. He really was not a lightweight. His record at lightweight is 8-1, with 6KOs.
Why Oscar DeLaHoya does not belong with the top 20 lightweights: Although he had more fights than Arguello at this weight class, STILL he did not had enough fights at 135. He ONLY had 12 fights, winning all of them, scoring 10KOs. He beat 5 world champions and 2 HOFs: John-John Molina (questionable decision by many), Jorge Paez (already washed up), Jesse James Leija (a jr. lightweight at best), Genaro Hernandez (a jr. lightweight at best) and his greatest win of all at this weight class vs Rafael Ruelas (KO2), which was nothing out of this world. Ruelas was more less MEDIOCRE at best even with a good record of 43-1. At 135, he won the Ring Fighter of the Year Award for 1995, which is a great accomplishment. He deserves to be a greater lightweight than Arguello. But from there nothing else.
Henry Armstrong to many, (and I would not argue with any person that thinks this way) is the greatest pound per pound fighter of all time. His record speaks for itself. But to put him at #4 in front of the monsters of this weight class like Ike Williams, Joe Brown, Carlos Ortiz and even the masterful Pernell Whitaker is OVERRATED. Why??? Armstrong's title fight record is POOR TO BEGIN WITH. Even though he has a good record at this weight class (34-4, 31KOs), he does not has as many fights and not many wins like the likes of Williams, Ortiz or Brown. But he has good wins against 6 HOFs and 6 world champs. I gotta give you that, But I cannot give you the Barney Ross victory because that was a welterweight fight no matter how you look at it. Plus it was a welterweight title fight for Ross' title. I say he belongs in the top 10 lightweights, but not at the top 5 best of that division.
Which bring Packey McFarland. All he has a win over the great Freddie Welsh and that is it for him. All other fights are no contests. He had a good record though, but not a great title fight record.
Sammy Mandell: I agree with you that he belongs in the top 20 lightweights. It is very hard to rate these fighters at their own weight class. I could consider him a top 20 lightweight because like I have said before, he has CREDENTIALS. He was champion for 4 years and make 6 title defenses and had 65 fights at 135, including beating 5 world champions and 2 HOFs in 6 years: Rocky Kansas (W10), Jimmy McLarnin (W15...it was a title fight), Jackie Fields (W10) and the great Tony Canzoneri (W10). I do not have him in my own personal list as a top 20 lightweight, but he is worthy to be a top 20 lightweight.
Ike Williams was the BEST LIGHTWEIGHT in probably the greatest era of the division. He beat 5 HOFs, in which 4 of them were lightweights: Willie Joyce (he probably could be a HOF), Beau Jack, Sammy Angott, Tippy Larkin and Bob Montgomery. He also beat 5 world champions at 135. He reigned for 6 years, making 8 successful title defenses. He won 91 fights at this weight class in 11 years. He had 33 fights in a row without a loss at one time, in this weight class. He also beat Juan Zurita, Eddie Giosa, Johnny Bratton, and Enrique Bolanos. Being a lightweight, he went up in weight and beat the great Kid Gavilan. He was the Ring Fighter of the Year in 1948, being a lightweight.
Joe Brown without a doubt is another monster in this division that deserves to be in the top 5. He made 11 title defenses in 6 years, beating top noch opposition. The great Carlos Ortiz had to dethrone him, being Brown at age of 36. He was the best lightweight of the 50s. He was a globetrotting champ that fought all over the world in 16 countries and was the Ring Fighter of the Year in 1961 being also a lightweight. He beat 4 world champions and 2 HOFs. He fought the best lightweights there is and beat a lot of them: Bud Smith, Orlando Zulueta, Kenny Lane, Isaac Logart, Jimmy Carter and Dave Charnley to name a few. He was a true embassador of the sport.
Carlos Ortiz: I do no know why you have him under Armstrong and never less at position #12 when he is also a top 10 lightweight, maybe a top 5. He was the best lightweight of the 60s and has 7 wins vs 5 HOFs in title fights. He also has beaten 5 world champions and made 13 title fights at 135, making 10 title defenses in 2 reigns beaing the likes of Joe Brown, Kenny Lane, Ismael Laguna, Flash Elorde and Sugar Ramos. He got 51 fights at 135, winning 45 and losing 5 with 20KOs and 1NC. He has also 11 title wins at 135. He was only stopped once and that happened with the Great Ken Buchanan being Ortiz 36 years old and washed up.
Now, you say that Ken Buchanan, Billy Petrolle, Ismael Laguna, Shane Mosley and Billy Petrolle are not top 20 lightweights. I think they are.
Ken Buchanan was ONLY stopped once in 69 bouts. He made 63 fights at 135. He won 59 and lost 4 fights @ 135. He fought at that weight for 15 years. That was most of his career. He had an excellent record of 43-1 w/ 15KOs before losing to the greatest lightweight ever, which was the only time he was stopped. We all know that it was not a real KO, but that was the only time he was stopped, regardless. You take Duran out of his era and he probably could have been the greatest lightweight ever. He won his first 33 contests, all of them at lightweight. He was the lightweoght king defeating another HOF in Ismael Laguna for the title in which both fights could have gone either way. Duran NEVER GAVE HIM A REMATCH. After the Duran fiasco, he won 13 fights in a row. Not to mention that he beat 6 world champions and 2 HOFs. He beat also tough Carlos "Morocho" Hernandez, Jim Watt, Frankie Narvaez, Al Ford, Ruben Navarro and Antonio Puddu. He was also British and European Lightweight Champion. Do not ask me how did he lost to Ishimatsu Suzuki. I cannot answer taht. But his resume is very good to be at the lightweight top 20 all time.
Billy Petrolle: Another deserving fighter that is a top 20 lightweight in my view. He had 92 fights @ 135 and won 47 of them, losing 15, drawing 8 and 21NC w/ 36KOs. He only fought once for the lightweight tiltle losing to the great Tony Canzoneri by decision. But at this wight class, Petrolle beat 3 world champions and 3 HOFs. That is more HOFs in this class that Arguello nor Delahoya ever beat together. He fought at 135 for 7 years. He beat Ray Miller, Jack "Kid" Berg, Tony Canzoneri in the first fight in a non title affair and Battling Battalino. That is better quality of opposition that Arguello or DeLaHoya has done at this weight class.
Shane Mosley: He is a top 20 lightweight. He made 8 successful title defenses of the IBF liightweight crown--All of them by knockout!!!---
The problem he is not a top 10 lightweight great is because of his quality of oppostion at 135 is POOR. He beat 3 world champions and 1 HOF at this weight, but they were either washed up or not in his class. He won his first 30 bouts, all lightweight affairs. I do no t consider him greater than Armstrong at this weight, but he was better than Arguello and DLH @ 135 in terms of accomplishments and longevity in the weight class. In his lightweight days, between April 1994 to April 1997, he scored 13 wins in a row by the way of knockout.
Esteban DeJesus: In historical significance, he was the FIRST and PROBABLY the ONLY MAN that ever beat the great Roberto Duran in his prime. Not to mention that he fought a great rivalry with Duran in 3 bouts in 3 great fights. He was the first man to dropped Duran on the canvas, and did it twice. He beat 3 world champions at 135. He was also Puerto Rican and NABF Lightweight Champion and WBC Lightweight king. He made 36 fights at 135, wiining 34 with 14KOs. He was so good that at this weight HE ONLY LOST 2 BOUTS. WHO WAS THE ONLY ONE TO BEAT HIM AT THIS WEIGHT CLASS??? We all know that. It had to be the greatest of this weight class to do it. He won 4 title fights @ 135. And the ONLY 2 title losses at this weight were against you know who. He also in this weight beat Ishimatsu Suzuki, Ray Lampkin, Johnny Gant, Percy Hayles and Edwin Viruet.
Ismae Laguna: You may say that he does not belong at the top 20 lightweights of all time. But let us look at his record and his accomplisments. He was a 2-time world lightweight champion in an era that was one of the toughest in boxing. For cripes sake, he had to beat the great Carlos Ortiz for the crown. He fought Ortiz 3 times. And his quality of opposition is WAY BETTER THAN Arguello's and Delahoya's combined at this weight class. He also had more fights than Arguello and Delahoya at this weight class put together. He fought 39 times at lightweight in 7 years and won 31 fights, losing 7, drawing once with Niccolino Locche (Probably a robbery), and 14KOs. He was NEVER STOPPED in his career of 75 fights. Was NEVER STOPPED at 135. He beat 5 world champions and 2 HOFs, all of them at lilghtweight. He fought 4 HOFs and 8 titlists at 135. Among the other guys he beat besides Ortiz: Mando Ramos, Ishimatsu Suzuki, Chango Carmona, Percy Hayles, Frankie Narvaez, Carlos "Morocho" Hernandez, and Alfredo Urbina.
His title fight resume is POOR, but he is a two time world lightweight champion
