BoxRec

barry wrote:>>>He did, but it was during Schmeling's off-year (he also lost to journeyman Steve Hamas at the time). And overall Schmeling was much more consistent than Baer, owning opponents who beat Baer couldn't beat(Uzcudun, Loughran, Risko).<<<

Why is it always with the excuse to try to cover up the most legitimate of losses...an off-year…give me break! Schmeling was right at his prime when Baer destroyed him…and Baer did destroy him in that bout…in fact…Baer absolutely owned Schmeling!

Much more consistent...how so…in what way was Schmeling more consistent?

And as far as Schmeling owning certain fighters, he most certainly did not own Loughran, Risko, or Uzcudun.

Also Baer lost to Risko in a close bout, but Baer came back and avenged his loss to Risko, he not only avenged the loss, he won every round during which Risko only held his own in one round and took a pretty solid beating…certainly as solid as what Schmeling handed him...if not more so!

The fight with Uzcudun was a barn-burner…20 rounds of it while Schmeling won two of three close bouts against Uzcudun…all those bouts that were decent, but none in which Uzcudun was “owned.” Plus the fact remains...Baer beat Schmeling when they were both pretty much in they're prime and beat Schmeling very well!

As far as Schmeling owning Tommy Louhran, well that would be a little difficult considering that they never fought!

Also, for the record…Steve Hamas was not a journeyman…he was a top ranked heavyweight who was rated in the top ten for a total of 32 months, which was pretty damn good considering that Hamas only fought for five years during which he was ranked in the top ten for three of those years including being the number one ranked heavyweight for the crown...Ranked number one...pretty good for a journeyman...wouldn't you say?

These are all legit arguments. I would still though rate Schmeling above Baer. First, Schmeling was consistently in the top 10 at heavyweights from 1929-38, while Baer florished for a few summers only. Second, Schmeling's best wins were Louis, Sharkey, Stribling; this is simply a bit more impressive than Schmeling, Carnera, Schaaf. Third, he looks better on tape than Baer, as Brockton already mentioned -- more composed, better defense, shorter punches, etc.. I have Schmeling in the top 20, Baer in the top 30.

Cheers,
P

Decagon wrote:Max Baer was a crude, talentless, unmotivated hack with a big punch. He was the Buster Douglas of the 1930s.

Except that Douglas didn't have a big punch. And he was actually not crude but was a pretty good boxer. Other than that, it's a pretty good analogy.

For the heavyweights, I could only find my top 15. I'll finish out the list later if I get the chance.

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. Larry Holmes
4. Evander Holyfield
5. Lennox Lewis
6. Sonny Liston
7. Joe Frazier
8. Jack Johnson
9. Rocky Marciano
10. Jack Dempsey
11. Ezzard Charles
12. Floyd Patterson
13. Jersey Joe Walcott
14. George Foreman
15. Gene Tunney

Liston suffers a bit in the head-to-head because I think he would have difficulty with faster boxers

the only time he struggled with a fast boxer was when liston was overweight , rusty and past his prime vs possibly the greatest heavyweight of all time at his peak.


liston completley outclassed fast master boxer eddie machen winning 10 out of 12 rounds. this fight shows u what a prime liston can do with a speedy boxer.

barry.......while i defintley respect your max baer pick and defense of him.....i hear you keep talking about how baer destroyed schmeling. yes this is true(though i thought the fight was close entering the 10th). however if you look at the whole entire picture you will find schmeling dominated and knocked out ATG joe louis. joe louis destroyed max baer in 4 one sided rounds. does baers win over schmeling rate over schmelings win over louis? i dont think so

1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Holmes
4. Johnson
5. Lewis
6. Liston
7. Foreman
8. Frazier
9. Dempsey
10. Holyfield
11. Marciano
12. Tyson
13. Jeffries
14. Walcott
15. Bowe
16. Tunney
17. Charles
18. Langford
19. Jeanette
20. Baer

Johnson, Louis, Ali, Holmes... I have a deep respect for anyone having at least 3 of these in their top 4, thankyou.

dr_devious wrote:1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Holmes
4. Johnson
5. Lewis
6. Liston
7. Foreman
8. Frazier
9. Dempsey
10. Holyfield
11. Marciano
12. Tyson
13. Jeffries
14. Walcott
15. Bowe
16. Tunney
17. Charles
18. Langford
19. Jeanette
20. Baer

What about Floyd Patterson, he defenetly deserves top 20 if Baer is on it.

Sherlock wrote:

elmersalsa wrote: This is my list of the greatest heavyweights of all time:

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. Jack Johnson
4. Rocky Marciano
5. Jack Dempsey
6. Evander Holyfield
7. George Foreman
8. Larry Holmes
9. Joe Frazier
10. Lennox Lewis
11. Mike Tyson
12. Ezzard Charles
13. Sam Langford
14. Gene Tunney
15. Harry Wills
16. Riddick Bowe
17. Jersey Joe Walcott
18. Max Baer
19. Jim J. Jeffries
20. John L. Sullivan

No Sonny Liston, Elmer?

My top twenty:
1. Joe Louis
2. Jack Johnson
3. Muhammad Ali
4. Larry Holmes
5. Jack Dempsey
6. Sonny Liston
7. Joe Frazier
8. George Foreman
9. Jim Jeffries
10. Rocky Marciano
11. Gene Tunney
12. Max Schmeling
13. Evander Holyfield
14. Mike Tyson
15. Lennox Lewis
16. Floyd Patterson
17. Ezzard Charles
18. Max Baer
19. Jack Sharkey
20. Jersey Joe Walcott

Hello Sherlock

Thanks for reminding me about Liston. I was in a little hurry, plus, I did not had my personal list in front of me.

This is my new and last list:

1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Johnson
4. Marciano
5. Dempsey
6. Holyfield
7. Foreman
8. Holmes
9. Frazier
10. Lennox Lewis
11. Mike Tyson
12. Ezzard Charles
13. Sonny Liston
14. Sam Langford
15. Gene Tunney
16. Harry Wills
17. Riddick Bowe
18. Peter Jackson
19. Jersey Joe Walcott
20. Jim J. Jeffries


Thanks for all the ones that participated in this. I am still waiting on posts by borinken, the one, and others.

Wills and Langford rate ahead of Liston and Walcott and may also rank ahead of Tyson.

Lewis is underrated by some. In fairness he can only be ranked below those who were fairly dominant for an extended period of time.

>>>>First, Schmeling was consistently in the top 10 at heavyweights from 1929-38, while Baer florished for a few summers only.<<<

Again you just post more statements which are simply just not true! Schmeling was ranked in the top ten for a total of something like 122 total months, more so than Baer, but Baer was ranked in the top ten for right around 78 total months...that's quite a bit more than a few summers...that's 6 1/2 years total! I don’t have the exact numbers right here in front of me, but I have them and they are very near what I list above, give, or take a couple of fights.


>>>>Second, Schmeling's best wins were Louis, Sharkey, Stribling; this is simply a bit more impressive than Schmeling, Carnera, Schaaf.<<<


Of course it’s more impressive, but those are not the most impressive wins of Baer’s career and overall Baer fought better opposition than Schmeling did, unless you consider all of those Eastern European heavyweights that Schmeling fought to be top ranked and if you do…then you are by yourself with that thought because no one else does!

But lets take a look at the actual quality opposition that each man fought:


Baer
1929-11-06 Natie Brown W PTS 6
1929-12-04 Chet Shandel W KO 2
1929-12-30 Tony Fuente W KO 1
1930-04-22 Ernie Owens W PTS 10
1930-06-25 Ernie Owens W KO 5
1930-07-15 Les Kennedy L PTS 10
1930-08-11 K O Christner W KO 2
1930-08-25 Frankie Campbell W TKO 5
1930-12-19 Ernie Schaaf L UD 10
1931-01-16 Tom Heeney W KO 3
1931-02-06 Tommy Loughran L UD 10
1931-04-07 Ernie Owens W KO 2
1931-05-05 Johnny Risko L PTS 10
1931-07-04 Paolino Uzcudun L PTS 20
1931-10-21 Jose Santa W KO 10
1931-11-09 Johnny Risko W PTS 10
1931-11-23 Les Kennedy W KO 3
1931-12-30 Arthur De Kuh W PTS 10
1932-01-29 King Levinsky W PTS 10
1932-02-22 Tom Heeney W PTS 10
1932-04-26 Paul Swiderski W TKO 6
1932-05-11 Walter Cobb W KO 4
1932-07-04 King Levinsky W PTS 20
1932-08-31 Ernie Schaaf W PTS 10
1932-09-26 Tuffy Griffiths W TKO 7
1933-06-08 Max Schmeling W TKO 10
1934-06-14 Primo Carnera W TKO 11
1935-06-13 Jim Braddock L UD 15
1935-09-24 Joe Louis L KO 4
1936-06-24 Wilson Dunn W KO 3
1936-07-16 Junior Munsell W KO 5
1936-09-14 Bearcat Wright W PTS 6
1937-04-15 Tommy Farr L PTS 12
1937-05-27 Ben Foord W TKO 9
1938-03-11 Tommy Farr W UD 15
1938-10-26 Hank Hankinson W KO 1
1939-06-01 Lou Nova L TKO 11
1940-07-02 Tony Galento W TKO 8
1940-09-26 Pat Comiskey W TKO 1
1941-04-04 Lou Nova L TKO 8

Schmeling
1925-09-01 Larry Gains L TKO 2
1927-08-07 Willem Westbroek W KO 3
1927-11-06 Hein Domgörgen W KO 7
1927-12-02 Gipsy Daniels W PTS 10
1928-01-06 Michele Bonaglia W KO 1
1928-02-25 Gipsy Daniels L KO 1
1928-04-04 Franz Diener W PTS 15
1929-01-04 Joe Sekyra W PTS 10
1929-02-01 Johnny Risko W TKO 9
1929-06-27 Paolino Uzcudun W PTS 15
1930-06-12 Jack Sharkey W DQ 4
1931-07-03 Young Stribling W TKO 15
1932-06-21 Jack Sharkey L SD 15
1932-09-26 Mickey Walker W TKO 8
1933-06-08 Max Baer L TKO 10
1934-02-13 Steve Hamas L PTS 12
1934-05-13 Paolino Uzcudun D PTS 12
1934-08-26 Walter Neusel W KO 9
1935-03-10 Steve Hamas W KO 9
1935-07-07 Paolino Uzcudun W PTS 12
1936-06-19 Joe Louis W KO 12
1937-12-13 Harry Thomas W TKO 8
1938-01-30 Ben Foord W PTS 12
1938-04-16 Steve Dudas W KO 5
1938-06-22 Joe Louis L KO 1
1939-07-02 Adolf Heuser W KO 1
1948-05-23 Walter Neusel L PTS 10
1948-10-31 Richard Vogt L PTS 10

Now if there are some other quality fighters that I missed for either fighter then please list them, but I think the above list is pretty well as good as it is going to get for either fighter.
I don’t know, but for me it is quite obvious that OVERALL, Baer simply fought the better competition!



>>>Third, he looks better on tape than Baer, as Brockton already mentioned -- more composed, better defense, shorter punches, etc.. I have Schmeling in the top 20, Baer in the top 30.<<<

I don’t have Schmeling ranked, but then again my list only goes to 20, but I’m pretty sure that I would have Schmeling somewhere between 21 and 40. When Baer was on his game and not goofing off he looked very good on film…but the big “clincher” is that Baer beat Schmeling while the two were pretty much in they’re primes. Now if one was way past it and the other just reached his best then it would be a lot different, but that’s not the case…they both were young and very, very near they’re prime and Baer came out on top…in pretty easy fashion!

>>>Max Baer was a crude, talentless, unmotivated hack with a big punch. He was the Buster Douglas of the 1930s<<<

Jesus, I wish that you would not speak on that which you do not know!!! The only thing that you stated that is even remotely accurate is that Baer was unmotivated [at times] with a big punch.

It’s true that Baer was often unmotivated, but when he was motivated he was one of the best…as Max Schmeling painfully learned first hand, but a lot of what made Baer unmotivated was the result of his fights with Frankie Campbell and Ernie Schaaf, especially the result of the Campbell fight. Baer was never the same fighter again, which the same thing has happened to several other top boxers, but even though Baer turned off the killer instinct that he had prior to the Campbell fight he was still a hell of a fighter!!!!


>>>Just because he fucked up by putting Baer in his top 20 doesn't mean he should fornicate up again by putting Floyd Patterson on it.<<<

What are you talking about? You have consistently demonstrated over the months that you honestly and truthfully know very little about Max Baer and his career and for someone who lists the likes of Jack Sharkey, Max Schmeling, Riddick Bowe and Jimmy Young, especially, in his top 20 then you should really keep quite about anyone listing Baer because Young and Bowe are a hell of a lot more questionable than Max Baer…hell Young and Bowe ranks with Buddy Baer and Sharkey and Schmeling...well there was nothing any more special about them compared to Max Baer!

Barry, why don't we choose an objective criterion as regards quality of opposition.

How many hall of famers did Max Baer beat? Right, one: Max Schmeling.

And how many HOFers die Max Schmeling beat? I count four: Joe Louis, Jack Sharkey, Young Stribling, Mickey Walker.



Cheers, P

Decagon wrote:Barry, how come consistency isn't a part of your rankings? And if you simply judge fighters based on how good they were at their very best, where's Riddick Bowe?

I think Bowe's just not that good at his very best. He went 2-1 with Holyfield and that sums up his career. Moorer went 1-1, is he an alltime-great too?

wouter wrote:

Decagon wrote:Barry, how come consistency isn't a part of your rankings? And if you simply judge fighters based on how good they were at their very best, where's Riddick Bowe?

I think Bowe's just not that good at his very best. He went 2-1 with Holyfield and that sums up his career. Moorer went 1-1, is he an alltime-great too?

First, Bowe beat a much better Holyfield in their first fight and lost to a better Holyfield in the rematch. Moorer won a disputed decision over a very lousy looking Holyfield and was soundly beaten in the rematch.

evndrbsn wrote:

wouter wrote:

Decagon wrote:Barry, how come consistency isn't a part of your rankings? And if you simply judge fighters based on how good they were at their very best, where's Riddick Bowe?

I think Bowe's just not that good at his very best. He went 2-1 with Holyfield and that sums up his career. Moorer went 1-1, is he an alltime-great too?

First, Bowe beat a much better Holyfield in their first fight and lost to a better Holyfield in the rematch. Moorer won a disputed decision over a very lousy looking Holyfield and was soundly beaten in the rematch.

Yeah, but then Holyfield wasn't that good that a 2-1 record over him alone should propel you into the top 20. Holyfield's best win was over a shot Mike Tyson; and he couldn't get by Riddick Bowe who, in turn, was beaten up twice by Andrew Golota.

I for my part have Holyfield in the low top 20 and Bowe outside the top 30.

Decagon wrote:Golota quit twice against Bowe.

And?

Decagon wrote:Just because he fucked up by putting Baer in his top 20 doesn't mean he should fuck up again by putting Floyd Patterson on it.

What the hell do you mean fornicate up again Floyd Patterson deserves to be top 20 atleast more than Jimmy Young.

Decagon wrote:Unlike Patterson, Jimmy Young didn't spend the better part of his prime running from the best fighters. He beat Ali and Foreman, only to get screwed out of the decision against Ali.

And he beat Lyle twice, lost a close, disputed decision to Norton and also deserved the nod against Shavers in their second fight. I don’t have Young in my top 20, but it’s certainly not a wild choice. During his peak years, he was about the best defensive HW I’ve ever seen.

Decagon wrote:Unlike Patterson, Jimmy Young didn't spend the better part of his prime running from the best fighters. He beat Ali and Foreman, only to get screwed out of the decision against Ali.

it wasnt patterson......it was D amato. remember patterson chose to take on liston, going against Damato. patterson would have killed folley and machen, aging valdez, and i think he would have gotten past C williams but that would have been interesting.


remember patterson beat eddie machen so bad in 1964, i mean really bad. no way any version of machen could ever beat patterson after watching this fight. patterson floored eddie 5 times, won almost every round and he carried machen in the late rounds because he felt bad for eddie. eddie was still dangerous in 64.

Decagon wrote: He beat Ali and Foreman, only to get screwed out of the decision against Ali.

young LOST to a horribly out of shape far past his prime muhammad ali. young beat a weight drained past his prime george foreman who was nowhere near the killer he was in 72-74.


young is in my top 35, but # 16 is too high

barry wrote:>>>Max Baer was a crude, talentless, unmotivated hack with a big punch. He was the Buster Douglas of the 1930s<<<

Jesus, I wish that you would not speak on that which you do not know!!! The only thing that you stated that is even remotely accurate is that Baer was unmotivated [at times] with a big punch.

It’s true that Baer was often unmotivated, but when he was motivated he was one of the best…as Max Schmeling painfully learned first hand, but a lot of what made Baer unmotivated was the result of his fights with Frankie Campbell and Ernie Schaaf, especially the result of the Campbell fight. Baer was never the same fighter again, which the same thing has happened to several other top boxers, but even though Baer turned off the killer instinct that he had prior to the Campbell fight he was still a hell of a fighter!!!!


>>>Just because he smeg up by putting Baer in his top 20 doesn't mean he should smeg up again by putting Floyd Patterson on it.<<<

What are you talking about? You have consistently demonstrated over the months that you honestly and truthfully know very little about Max Baer and his career and for someone who lists the likes of Jack Sharkey, Max Schmeling, Riddick Bowe and Jimmy Young, especially, in his top 20 then you should really keep quite about anyone listing Baer because Young and Bowe are a hell of a lot more questionable than Max Baer…hell Young and Bowe ranks with Buddy Baer and Sharkey and Schmeling...well there was nothing any more special about them compared to Max Baer!

Bowe was about as good as Buddy Baer? Wow. I'm sure Buddy would have lost one fight in his career against Bowe's compeitition. Bowe was much much better than Buddy Baer. Schmeling and Sharkey were better than Buddy Baer as well.
I'm also going to go out on a limb and say that Lewis and Bowe were both better than Tommy Burns, who you have in your top 20 but not Bowe and Lewis.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:young beat a weight drained past his prime george foreman who was nowhere near the killer he was in 72-74.

Weight drained?!!? Nowhere near what he was in 72-74?!!? Geeez, this is almost as good as the Tyson “past his prime at 24” logic…

barry wrote:Heavyweight

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. Jack Dempsey
4. Jack Johnson
5. Rocky Marciano
6. Mike Tyson
7. Jim Jeffries
8. George Foreman
9. Sonny Liston
10. Larry Holmes
11. Joe Frazier
12. Max Baer
13. Sam Langford
14. Bob Fitzsimmons
15. Ezzard Charles
16. Gene Tunney
17. Evander Holyfield
18. Peter Jackson
19. John L. Sullivan
20. Tommy Burns

Great list, Barry is only the person who sees sense and knows that Lewis does not deserve to be in the top 20.