BoxRec

One big fight does not make up for years of mediocrity!

Yes, but one big fight does shoot down the idea he's unwilling to take any... by defintion he was willing to take one.

Taki... wrote:Yes, but one big fight does shoot down the idea he's unwilling to take any... by defintion he was willing to take one.

And even that one he had to push off a couple months and change location before he took it.

Mattyp151 wrote:

Taki... wrote:Yes, but one big fight does shoot down the idea he's unwilling to take any... by defintion he was willing to take one.

And even that one he had to push off a couple months and change location before he took it.

Change location because Millenium Stadium was already occupied with the rugby!

It doesn't matter where, when and how they fought. Calzaghe dominated every single round and would have did the same regardless of when and where they fought.

lvlarc_uk wrote:

Mattyp151 wrote:

Taki... wrote:Yes, but one big fight does shoot down the idea he's unwilling to take any... by defintion he was willing to take one.

And even that one he had to push off a couple months and change location before he took it.

Change location because Millenium Stadium was already occupied with the rugby!

It doesn't matter where, when and how they fought. Calzaghe dominated every single round and would have did the same regardless of when and where they fought.

Not my point, the guy still showed reluctance to take that fight, and that was the most hyped fight of his career, and on the biggest worldwide stage as well.

Is it not obvious he has an issue with this, seeing as the fight EVERYONE wants him to take is with Kessler, and Kessler was #3 on his list?

He went from a retired MW champion who moonlighted as a LHW, to the MW champion....when something he has claimed to work for his whole career is sitting there waiting on him.

It's hard to determine whether Calzaghe or Warren is primarily to blame (and in the end it's also immaterial, Calazghe could and should have sacked Warren long ago).

But ever since the Reid fight, Calzaghe has only taken on opponents where all the odds were stacked in his favor. Folks who couldn't deal with his agressive, high-handspeed style. And while there have been a few decent fighters among them here and there, overall his career looks way too carefully planned.

True champions are made out of different material -- they go to where it hurts. Calzaghe has still time to rectify this, but not much.

Mattyp151 wrote:

lvlarc_uk wrote:

Mattyp151 wrote: And even that one he had to push off a couple months and change location before he took it.

Change location because Millenium Stadium was already occupied with the rugby!

It doesn't matter where, when and how they fought. Calzaghe dominated every single round and would have did the same regardless of when and where they fought.

Not my point, the guy still showed reluctance to take that fight, and that was the most hyped fight of his career, and on the biggest worldwide stage as well.

Is it not obvious he has an issue with this, seeing as the fight EVERYONE wants him to take is with Kessler, and Kessler was #3 on his list?

He went from a retired MW champion who moonlighted as a LHW, to the MW champion....when something he has claimed to work for his whole career is sitting there waiting on him.

Calzaghe is on the up. He's gone from unwilling to reluctant!
Hopkins was in many people's p4p top 5 after beating Tarver... now suddenly his age is an issue and he's only 'moonlighting' at 175!
Taylor is also in many peoples p4p top 5 and has been desribed (and I quote) as "A huge middleweight".
Kessler by contrast features in no-ones (bar Pundit and other Kessler nuthuggers) top 10 P4p list.
I can't help but feel that much of this criticism is for criticisms sake. Calzaghe/Taylor would be a huge fight, as would Calzaghe/Hopkins... neither, in terms of ability or quality would be a lesser fight than Calzaghe/Kessler.

Taki... wrote:

viciousmaussa wrote:

Taki... wrote: Beyer sorted himself out... he swapped his title for a nice big fat cheque(just like Chris Byrd). If Warren had coughed up some £££ Calzaghe and not Kessler could have the WBC belt in his collection, but uncle Frank is a little unwilling to part with his money... unless a fighter has him over a barrel (see: Hatton/Tszyu).

where's your proof of that? A lot of fighters will have no answer for Kessler's jab.

Did you read 'Dougie's Mailbag', which said Beyer basically quit? Or did you watch the full fight, in which Markus got dominated, battered by a left jab & then knocked senseless with a right?

Warren had a chance to bring Beyer over. Why did he apparently insist that the fight be in September, a date that Beyer couldn't make? Beyer needed October...& then Calzaghr ends up fighting Bika in October??

Would you have given Calzaghe credit for beating Beyer, I wonder?

I know one good reason why Calzaghe never went after a Beyer fight. He was ringside when his pal Richie Woodhall got knocked over two or three times by the German.

Well, for a start Beyer went to Denmark! Secondly, Beyer had been avoiding his mandatory (because he knew he'd lose). And thirdly, I saw the fight! Beyer looked like he'd lost before he started and upon being KD'd showed no ambition, fight, or passion. Kessler did his job, but Beyer was only there to get his pre-retirement payday. Beyer wasn't 'knocked senseless' he was solidly Kd'd... hyperbole is not a valid argument.

Warren didn't bring Beyer over because he wants a payday. Beyer, despite being a long reigning champion, is not a draw anywhere but Germany (and, to a degree, Denmark). Frank has his sights set on US TV money, which neither Beyer not Kessler will help with.

No, Calzaghe would have gotten as much (or as little) credit as Kessler for beating the cheque collecting version of Beyer.

Calzaghe didn't go after Beyer because 1. fighting in Germany, no matter how good you are, is a huge gamble. And 2. Warren would never have paid Beyer enough to leave Germany.
As for watching Beyer KD Woodhall twice... terrifying. Almost as scary as watching Glenn Catley outbox and TKO Beyer. No wonder Calzaghe kept clear...

How do you know Beyer didn't go to win? Just because Kessler harrasses him with the jab. In other words, because he lost to a better fighter, he came to lose.

Beyer is a slow starter, but he was given no respite. Kessler threw outstanding jabs at im to hurt him, break his rhythm, and take away any ambition he entered the ring with. In short, he beat Beyer before Beyer could even get started.

Kessler is an excellent fighter. Many ppl were picking him to have real struggles with Beyer. He demolishes a fellow title holder, and then gets no credit for stopping a quality fighter.

Beyer took a big right hand. On the canvas, he was stunned and was too disorientated to carry on. I didn't say knocked cold.


Ultimately, Kessler has gone after a fellow title holder and won in one sided fashion. That's all that can be expected of modern day world champions. & that's exactly what the great Hopkins did, went after everyone & beat them out of sight.

Kessler has wanted fights with Beyer, Calzaghe and Lacy for ages. Yet no one wants to fight him.

Mattyp151 wrote:

lvlarc_uk wrote:

Mattyp151 wrote: And even that one he had to push off a couple months and change location before he took it.

Change location because Millenium Stadium was already occupied with the rugby!

It doesn't matter where, when and how they fought. Calzaghe dominated every single round and would have did the same regardless of when and where they fought.

Not my point, the guy still showed reluctance to take that fight, and that was the most hyped fight of his career,

THIS is the decisive phrase.

As for Kessler, Calzaghe has to fight him otherwise he'll have achieved rather little at super-middlweight. In contrast, beating up retired grandpas and middleweights won't do him much good.

Btw, it's Calzaghe fans who should be pressing this point, as THEY should be interested in Calzaghe leaving a half-decent legacy. But it seems they simply don't get the point.

Not EVERYONE. 35% on fightnews think Hopkins is the bigger fight and it certainly is IN AMERICA. People seem to ignore the articles that report Calzaghe saying he wants Kessler. It was already reported that the camps are in talks and then a few days later it's reported that Kessler will take his mandatory instead, Andrade.

viciousmaussa wrote:
Kessler has wanted fights with Beyer, Calzaghe and Lacy for ages. Yet no one wants to fight him.

If Kessler wanted Lacy so much, then why didn't he take the 40%

He took alot less than 40% for the Beyer fight, I wonder why

lvlarc_uk wrote:Not EVERYONE. 35% on fightnews think Hopkins is the bigger fight and it certainly is IN AMERICA. People seem to ignore the articles that report Calzaghe saying he wants Kessler. It was already reported that the camps are in talks and then a few days later it's reported that Kessler will take his mandatory instead, Andrade.

Taking a random poll as evidence is dumb, because you can't verify who is answering. There is nothing keeping a nimwit who hasn't watched boxing from voting Hopkins because its a name he recognizes. The sad part is, if I were to go there, that guys vote would count as much as mine.

Calzaghe/Kessler is the fight.

Taylor being a top 5 p4p is absolute bullshit.That he held his own in those 3 fights suggests he has the POTENTIAL to be a top 5 p4p.

We haven't seen him in with any punchers or particularly fresh MIDDLEWEIGHTS yet.

Kessler has been dominating good fighters for the past two years. He unified two belts, has barely lost any rounds, holds 3 defenses & has wins over 6 titlists. In his past 4 fights he has bested 2 former, and 2 current titlists, and has lost a total of 4 rounds.

He has a brilliant jab, which he uses to dominate most opponents, he hasn't scraped the barrel for opponents Calzaghe-style, & is willing to take hard fights. i.e. we can believe he will fight Andrade, Mundine & Bute in succession.

In his first title fight, he wasn't even in any publication's world top 10, yet he dominated Siaca (who fought on level terms with one of Calzaghe's 'career-defining' foes Mitchell) as if he was a veteran! In his last title fight, he was dominant in a unification.

I certainly think he is, or nearly is, in the top ten p4p.

lvlarc_uk wrote:

viciousmaussa wrote:
Kessler has wanted fights with Beyer, Calzaghe and Lacy for ages. Yet no one wants to fight him.

If Kessler wanted Lacy so much, then why didn't he take the 40%

He took alot less than 40% for the Beyer fight, I wonder why

Don't believe all of 'Big Gary Shaw's' press releases.

Now that Lacy has left him, not even Shaw would pretend that Kessler priced himself out!

They only wanted to get Calzaghe because they thought he was a shot fighter.

Shaw is already bad mouthing Lacy. I just hope someone mentions Kessler & see what he says.

Mattyp151 wrote:

lvlarc_uk wrote:Not EVERYONE. 35% on fightnews think Hopkins is the bigger fight and it certainly is IN AMERICA. People seem to ignore the articles that report Calzaghe saying he wants Kessler. It was already reported that the camps are in talks and then a few days later it's reported that Kessler will take his mandatory instead, Andrade.

Taking a random poll as evidence is dumb, because you can't verify who is answering. There is nothing keeping a nimwit who hasn't watched boxing from voting Hopkins because its a name he recognizes. The sad part is, if I were to go there, that guys vote would count as much as mine.

Calzaghe/Kessler is the fight.

Two coms:

-- my hunch is that among boxing experts the vote will go overwhelmingly to Kessler, while Hopkins will get the vote of the occasional observer who know 10 current fihgters perhaps and has never heard of Kessler. Of course this isn't unimportant -- for big money fights you need to draw in the occasional observers. But Calzaghe has to decide on whether he wants the most significant fight or the most popular. And he hasn't done enough in his career yet to go for the latter -- at least this is my view.

-- talk is cheap. Warren has called out almost every fighter on the planet for Calzaghe but hardly any of these fights has ever been made. Partly because Warren's negotiation tactis have prevented them from hapenning. So, "Calzaghe says he wants..." says -- nothing.

You seriously think Taylor being top 5 is absolute bullshit?

Can I see your top 6 please

viciousmaussa wrote: How do you know Beyer didn't go to win? Just because Kessler harrasses him with the jab. In other words, because he lost to a better fighter, he came to lose.

Beyer is a slow starter, but he was given no respite. Kessler threw outstanding jabs at im to hurt him, break his rhythm, and take away any ambition he entered the ring with. In short, he beat Beyer before Beyer could even get started.

Kessler is an excellent fighter. Many ppl were picking him to have real struggles with Beyer. He demolishes a fellow title holder, and then gets no credit for stopping a quality fighter.

Beyer took a big right hand. On the canvas, he was stunned and was too disorientated to carry on. I didn't say knocked cold.


Ultimately, Kessler has gone after a fellow title holder and won in one sided fashion. That's all that can be expected of modern day world champions. & that's exactly what the great Hopkins did, went after everyone & beat them out of sight.

Kessler has wanted fights with Beyer, Calzaghe and Lacy for ages. Yet no one wants to fight him.

There's no doubt Kessler was better than Beyer, but the fact remains Beyer did not turn up at that fight looking to win. Beyer has NEVER shown any ambition to unify titles in the past, now suddenly, when he's in heavy decline, he changes the habits of a life time by heading for hostile territory to fight superior opposition for big payday... hmmmmm.

Beyer was a NON-STARTER, he had every intention of looking for a quick way out of that contest and a very professional Kessler provided it for him nice and early. In short Beyer BEAT Beyer before the ink was dry on the contract.

Kessler is a good fighter, who I picked to beat Beyer, simply because Beyer was over the hill and looking for a payday (I couldn't help being spot on).

Beyer walked onto a right straight down the pipe, looked resigned (as he did before the opening bell) and decided to call it a night. You said knocked senseless... apparently he had enough sense left to get up and indicate he'd had enough.

As for comparing Kessler with Hopkins... well that kind of BS speaks for itself.

lvlarc_uk wrote:You seriously think Taylor being top 5 is absolute bullshit?

Can I see your top 6 please

I have Taylor top 5 pfp, but the emphasis is on pfp. If Calzaghe fought Mayweather or Pacquiao it wouldn't gain him much fame, would it. Neither would a middleweight, at least not until this middleweight has achieved something meaningful at 168 (like, say, gaining a top 3 belt).

Besides, if Calzaghe runs now from Kessler he simply won't have achieved very much at his own weight class. Less than, say, Sven Ottke. This is why he needs this fight.

Taki... wrote:

viciousmaussa wrote: How do you know Beyer didn't go to win? Just because Kessler harrasses him with the jab. In other words, because he lost to a better fighter, he came to lose.

Beyer is a slow starter, but he was given no respite. Kessler threw outstanding jabs at im to hurt him, break his rhythm, and take away any ambition he entered the ring with. In short, he beat Beyer before Beyer could even get started.

Kessler is an excellent fighter. Many ppl were picking him to have real struggles with Beyer. He demolishes a fellow title holder, and then gets no credit for stopping a quality fighter.

Beyer took a big right hand. On the canvas, he was stunned and was too disorientated to carry on. I didn't say knocked cold.


Ultimately, Kessler has gone after a fellow title holder and won in one sided fashion. That's all that can be expected of modern day world champions. & that's exactly what the great Hopkins did, went after everyone & beat them out of sight.

Kessler has wanted fights with Beyer, Calzaghe and Lacy for ages. Yet no one wants to fight him.

There's no doubt Kessler was better than Beyer, but the fact remains Beyer did not turn up at that fight looking to win. Beyer has NEVER shown any ambition to unify titles in the past, now suddenly, when he's in heavy decline, he changes the habits of a life time by heading for hostile territory to fight superior opposition for big payday... hmmmmm.

There is no evidence whatsoever that Beyer was in heavy decline, and neither that Beyer didn't want to win. If so he would ahve run from Kessler. But incontrat, Beyer tried in vain to get inside, couldn't find a way past Kessler's jab, and when he tried to force it -- buuum.

So Beyer simply ran into a better fighter. The above trash talk is wishful thinking by folks who want to talk down the significance of Kessler's win.

Pundit quit comparing apples with oranges. Fact is Taylor is a big middleweight and could make 168 with ease. Taylor is atop 5 P4P'r

If Oscar beats Mayweather, it will be a huge win for him.

I asked a simple question.

viciousmaussa wrote:Taylor being a top 5 p4p is absolute bullshit.That he held his own in those 3 fights suggests he has the POTENTIAL to be a top 5 p4p.

We haven't seen him in with any punchers or particularly fresh MIDDLEWEIGHTS yet.

Kessler has been dominating good fighters for the past two years. He unified two belts, has barely lost any rounds, holds 3 defenses & has wins over 6 titlists. In his past 4 fights he has bested 2 former, and 2 current titlists, and has lost a total of 4 rounds.

He has a brilliant jab, which he uses to dominate most opponents, he hasn't scraped the barrel for opponents Calzaghe-style, & is willing to take hard fights. i.e. we can believe he will fight Andrade, Mundine & Bute in succession.

In his first title fight, he wasn't even in any publication's world top 10, yet he dominated Siaca (who fought on level terms with one of Calzaghe's 'career-defining' foes Mitchell) as if he was a veteran! In his last title fight, he was dominant in a unification.

I certainly think he is, or nearly is, in the top ten p4p.

I don't have Taylor in my top 5, but plenty of people do. As for not seeing Taylor in with punchers or fresh MW's... so what? He survived 24 rounds with the top man at 175 rather well. In fact he did rather well over 36 rounds with two top 10 P4p fighters.
Kessler has been dominating decent fighters... only Mundine could be rated as 'good'. And even his stock is vastly over-rated, based as it is, on losing to Kessler... which seem to self perpetuate the OTT hype surrounding both fighters.

Yeah Kessler hasn't 'scraped the barrel'... the 35 year old Eric Lucas was a fantasticly ambitious defence.

As for rating Siaca as a great win... more power to you. And dominating fighters who turn up to lose isn't massively impressive.

As for Kessler being top 10 p4p! Better than Mayweather, Wright, Pacquiao, Barrera, Taylor, Hatton, John, Vazquez, Marquez, DLH, Castillo, JMM, Hopkins... based on what? I think a little more than Manny Siaca and ancients like Lucas and Beyer are required before he's in that company.

Taki... wrote:

viciousmaussa wrote:

Taki... wrote: Beyer sorted himself out... he swapped his title for a nice big fat cheque(just like Chris Byrd). If Warren had coughed up some £££ Calzaghe and not Kessler could have the WBC belt in his collection, but uncle Frank is a little unwilling to part with his money... unless a fighter has him over a barrel (see: Hatton/Tszyu).

where's your proof of that? A lot of fighters will have no answer for Kessler's jab.

Did you read 'Dougie's Mailbag', which said Beyer basically quit? Or did you watch the full fight, in which Markus got dominated, battered by a left jab & then knocked senseless with a right?

Warren had a chance to bring Beyer over. Why did he apparently insist that the fight be in September, a date that Beyer couldn't make? Beyer needed October...& then Calzaghr ends up fighting Bika in October??

Would you have given Calzaghe credit for beating Beyer, I wonder?

I know one good reason why Calzaghe never went after a Beyer fight. He was ringside when his pal Richie Woodhall got knocked over two or three times by the German.

Well, for a start Beyer went to Denmark! Secondly, Beyer had been avoiding his mandatory (because he knew he'd lose). And thirdly, I saw the fight! Beyer looked like he'd lost before he started and upon being KD'd showed no ambition, fight, or passion. Kessler did his job, but Beyer was only there to get his pre-retirement payday. Beyer wasn't 'knocked senseless' he was solidly Kd'd... hyperbole is not a valid argument.

Warren didn't bring Beyer over because he wants a payday. Beyer, despite being a long reigning champion, is not a draw anywhere but Germany (and, to a degree, Denmark). Frank has his sights set on US TV money, which neither Beyer not Kessler will help with.

No, Calzaghe would have gotten as much (or as little) credit as Kessler for beating the cheque collecting version of Beyer.

Calzaghe didn't go after Beyer because 1. fighting in Germany, no matter how good you are, is a huge gamble. And 2. Warren would never have paid Beyer enough to leave Germany.
As for watching Beyer KD Woodhall twice... terrifying. Almost as scary as watching Glenn Catley outbox and TKO Beyer. No wonder Calzaghe kept clear...

I'd concur with that analysis, Beyer was clearly looking to cash out bigtime, I'm sure this will be borne out by the fact he won't fight ever again. Beyer had a belt, and realised that if he wanted a nice payday, he'd better get on with it before he got beaten in a crappy mandatory.

Beyer had not looked concinving for a long time now.

Sure, Kessler got the job done, but It's lunacy to suggest that Kessler's win over Beyer puts him on pedastal.

Calzaghe and Kessler SHOULD however get on with it and make terms for a fight, I don't believe Joe is scared of Kessler, but I won't be surprised if he deems the terms of engagement unsuitable and goes hunting elsewhere.

One positive though, is that I don't think Taylor's handlers are ready to put him in with Calzaghe whilst he can continue staking his claim at Middlweight, and nobody else seems either interested, or interests Calzaghe. Hopkins isn't interested, Johnson isn't a big fight, Tarver got beat, Winky doesn't seem to show any interest, so it looks like more title defences for now or fight Kessler.

If Joe fights Kessler, there's a potentially huge payday for a Taylor fight waiting in the wings, because beating a unified champ is certainly going to appeal, and Taylor has time to fit at least two fights in before it.

what I don't want to see is Joe pissing away the remainder of his career fannying about fighting scrubs like Bika whlist talking cobblers about big fights that aint' gonna happen.

Blame Warren all you like, but fact is, Joe inevitably, has gotten what he has asked for in his career, and I think it pretty self satisfied. Had he made the big push for fights in the US or against the elite fighters of his day, I'm sure Warren would have tried to make them a lot harder than he has.

I did notice in the latest reports from SN that Calzaghe's next fight has already been downgraded from 'SUPERFIGHT' to 'BIG FIGHT'... wtg allegedly (keeping it real, as always).

lvlarc_uk wrote:Pundit quit comparing apples with oranges. Fact is Taylor is a big middleweight and could make 168 with ease. Taylor is atop 5 P4P'r

If Oscar beats Mayweather, it will be a huge win for him.

I asked a simple question.

What exactly is your simple question?

As for DLH, he's long established himself as an ATG, the general view is that he's past his prime, Floyd Mayweather is the greatest fighter of our generation, and DLH would go down to PBF's weight rather than the other way round.

None of this applies to Calzaghe/Taylor. Hence if I compare apples to oranges you compare apples to - hmmmm -- garage doors?

pundit wrote:

lvlarc_uk wrote:Pundit quit comparing apples with oranges. Fact is Taylor is a big middleweight and could make 168 with ease. Taylor is atop 5 P4P'r

If Oscar beats Mayweather, it will be a huge win for him.

I asked a simple question.

What exactly is your simple question?

As for DLH, he's long established himself as an ATG, the general view is that he's past his prime, Floyd Mayweather is the greatest fighter of our generation, and DLH would go down to PBF's weight rather than the other way round.

None of this applies to Calzaghe/Taylor. Hence if I compare apples to oranges you compare apples to - hmmmm -- garage doors?

.

I mentioned Oscar beating Floyd because by your logic, Mayweather would have to achieve something at 150/154 prior to getting beat by golden Boy (because Oscar isn't going down to 147) for Oscar to get the praises, which is wrong.

The general view is that Calzaghe too, has passed his prime.

The simple question wasn't even directed towards you.