BoxRec

I have always heard that Salvador was brilliant.
I need more tape.
I have plenty on Pernell.

I'm not in the position to make a clear call.

Evander wrote:I have always heard that Salvador was brilliant.
I need more tape.
I have plenty on Pernell.

I'm not in the position to make a clear call.

Sanchez was a brilliant featherweight, Whitaker was a brilliant lightweight. We'll never know how well Sanchez would have fared at lightweight, judging from what i've seen, I think it's safe to say he'd do well, but we have no idea how well. That's why this match up a very difficult match up to call. Sanchez never had a fight at lightweight, and we're matching him up against one of the greatest lightweight of all time at lightweight. Based on what either fighter accomplished, it is safe to say the majority of knowledgeable boxing fans would favor Whitaker, personally (if you've read some of my posts on Sanchez, you'd quickly realize he's my favorite fighter of all time so I can't honestly say i'm unbiased) I think Sanchez could hang with Whitaker. I'd go so far as to say Sanchez could have ended up at light welterweight as he was only 23 when he passed away. However, that is all speculation, not cold hard facts. I think this match up is slightly unfair to Sanchez, because for all we know, he might not have been a spectacular lightweight, however, most fans, based on what they've seen, would say Sanchez could hang at lightweight. But could he hang with Whitaker? We truly will never know. The Duran vs Whitaker match up however, now that's a bit more fair and probably a bit more interesting as there is much evidence to back either fighter in that match up.

Sanchez wins this one in a snooze fest. Whitaker never takes a step foreward, and Sanchez counters all of Sweet Pea's pitty pat punches, which are few and far between as Sweet Pea's lefthand ass would be in fear of Salvador.

Borinken25 wrote:

DoubleM wrote:

Borinken25 wrote: Please elmer why don’t you give credit to Benitez. First what kind of excuse is that Duran wasn’t accustomed to that weight. If it is like that then Trinidad wasn’t accostmed to middle weight and that is why he lost to Hopkins. Nonsense. Trinidad lost because he couldn’t do anything to decipher Hopkins movement and defense and that is what happen to Duran. He was in great shape and to imply that Duran was WASHED UP is extremely absurd. Benitez was the better man that night and Duran just couldn’t do anything to decipher Benitez defense and it wouldn’t be that far-fetched to think that Whitaker could do the same thing.

... Yep, Duran was in top shape. He was also determined to win. However - the point is, Duran was far better at lightweight.

I do agree 100% with that statement.

Duran was a TOTAL DIFFERENT FIGHTER AFTER THE NO MAS. He was absolutely WASHED UP. Just look at his fights before the Benitez fight. He looked old, the fire was not there and neither had the SPEED, something that it was one of Duran's most UNDERRATED ASSETS: SPEED.

And then at 154, Duran STRUGGLED vs Luigi Minchillo and Nino Gonzalez, 2 fighters that if the fight was at least at 147, NONE OF THE 2 would've not last agaisnt the Hands of Stone.

Even the fans in Panama, including the Great Eusebio Pedroza said before the fight with Benitez that Duran was gonna lose big time because El Cholo WAS NOT ACCOSTUMED TO THE WEIGHT CLASS AND WAS WASHED UP. Even when he beat Davey Moore, Duran was washed up. That was not the Duran circa 1972-80, which was a tremendous fighting machine that could slip punches, had underrated speed, and could slip punches giving you angles, SOMETHING THAT I ALSO DID NOT SEE IN THE NO MAS FIGHT.

NO matter how hard Duran trained for the Benitez fight, his speed and movement was NEVER THE SAME like say, the Montreal fight on down to the 70s. That was 21 pounds out of his weight class and also his 5'7" frame could not carry the weight. That is why he lost the majority of the fights going up after 147 lbs.

Likewise, Tito vs Hopkins, it was also a matter of weight discrepency. Tito was a blown up welterweight that started his career at jr welterweight and Hopkins started at light-heavyweight. Who is gonna be more stronger??? Hops or Tito? Hops of course.

A great small fighter cannot beat a bigger and great fighter. That is always THE RULE. And Salvador Sanchez would not escape from THAT RULE EITHER.

One could also make the argument that Benitez was past his best, and fighting above his weight, when he outboxed Duran. And after the Duran fight, Benitez only beat a couple of fringe contenders. Ironic how little credit Benitez get's for beating Duran, yet Duran's fans love to talk about what he did before and after that fight. As much as I dislike Duran, people should just face the fact that losing to Hall of Famer Wilfred Benitez isn't exactly a disgrace,

Seamus wrote:One could also make the argument that Benitez was past his best, and fighting above his weight, when he outboxed Duran. And after the Duran fight, Benitez only beat a couple of fringe contenders. Ironic how little credit Benitez get's for beating Duran, yet Duran's fans love to talk about what he did before and after that fight. As much as I dislike Duran, people should just face the fact that losing to Hall of Famer Wilfred Benitez isn't exactly a disgrace,

It is not a disgrace losing to Benitez at all Seamus. Not at all!!! The point I am making was that Duran after the No Mas WAS NEVER THE SAME. Even when he beat Moore, Duran was not the same. He was not even half of what he was @ 135, 140 or 147, weight classes that were Duran's range. At 154, you could see Duran had a lot of struggle to carry the weight and also he was WASHED UP, or close to it.

He at 154 could not do the same things he did in the lower classes because HE DID NOT HAD THE SPEED. He probably was stronger, of course, more weight, and probably hit harder at 154, but his punch could not do much at that weight and beyond either. He was completely out of his range. When I think of Duran, I think of him of the great machine he was before the "No Mas".

And that was not only the case with Duran. It also happened to Wilfredo Gomez when he went up on weight. He was not the same. His speed was not the same and he could not carry the weight after the 122 pound reign of terror.

Also the same was for Sugar Ray Leonard. At 147, he was FANTASTIC!!! After that, Sugar Ray was not even half of what he was. The speed was not there. His reflexes were not there, neither his punching power. A Hearns-Leonard II at 154, and I would have not be surprised see Ray got knocked out, because Hearns looked STRONGER at 154. He was a MONSTER. We saw the evidence when they fought out of their primes at 168. Hearns was stronger than Leonard going up.

Do we seriously think that the great Sugar Ray Leonard would have triumph against the likes of Matthew Saad Muhammad, Dwight Braxton or Michael Spinks or Alvaro "Yaqui" Lopez at 175 pounds???

Sanchez would win by ko in round 5..

Seamus wrote:One could also make the argument that Benitez was past his best, and fighting above his weight, when he outboxed Duran. And after the Duran fight, Benitez only beat a couple of fringe contenders. Ironic how little credit Benitez get's for beating Duran, yet Duran's fans love to talk about what he did before and after that fight. As much as I dislike Duran, people should just face the fact that losing to Hall of Famer Wilfred Benitez isn't exactly a disgrace,

I do agree 100%.

Now elmersalsa claim that Duran was WASHED UP. Now lets look at the evidence. After the Benitez fight he went on and defeated Moore, HOF Pipino Cueves in which he beat the crap out him, made a great fight against Hagler and capture the middle weight championship in a fight of the year against the dangerous and much bigger Barkley. It that the sign of WASHED UP fighter. Now I'm not claiming that Duran was the same fighter that he was at 135, but he was not washed up. Please elmer give credit to the brilliant fight that Benitez did against Duran. Duran was still a very formidable fighter and the problem was he couldn't solve Benitez defense plain and simple. Like Seamus said that isn't exactly a disgrace.

Borinken25 wrote:

Seamus wrote:One could also make the argument that Benitez was past his best, and fighting above his weight, when he outboxed Duran. And after the Duran fight, Benitez only beat a couple of fringe contenders. Ironic how little credit Benitez get's for beating Duran, yet Duran's fans love to talk about what he did before and after that fight. As much as I dislike Duran, people should just face the fact that losing to Hall of Famer Wilfred Benitez isn't exactly a disgrace,

I do agree 100%.

Now elmersalsa claim that Duran was WASHED UP. Now lets look at the evidence. After the Benitez fight he went on and defeated Moore, HOF Pipino Cueves in which he beat the crap out him, made a great fight against Hagler and capture the middle weight championship in a fight of the year against the dangerous and much bigger Barkley. It that the sign of WASHED UP fighter. Now I'm not claiming that Duran was the same fighter that he was at 135, but he was not washed up. Please elmer give credit to the brilliant fight that Benitez did against Duran. Duran was still a very formidable fighter and the problem was he couldn't solve Benitez defense plain and simple. Like Seamus said that isn't exactly a disgrace.

The ONLY GUY that I will give credit in beating Duran at his best was the great lightweight Esteban DeJesus of Puerto Rico. I give DeJesus the whole credit. He beat Duran and there was no excuses.

But at 154, Duran was not even the same fighter after the No Mas. With Moore, Cuevas, Benitez, Laing and Barkley to mention those fights and even with Hagler, DURAN WAS NOT THE SAME AND HE WAS CONSIDERED WASHED UP. Duran did not had that movement of slipping punches like when he fought Leonard in the first fight and down in the decade of the 70s.

I will give Benitez credit due that got a victory over Duran and that was a great accomplishment, but that was DURAN THE NAME, NOT THE FIGHTER THAT HE WAS.

When Duran beat Moore and Barkley IT WAS A COMPLETE MIRACLE!!! Until this day, I do not know how Duran beat so much bigger and younger opponents. The night that Duran won his 4th title, was a MIRACLE, even Al Bernstein said it. If there were a rematch with Barkley right then, I WOULD NOT BE SURPRISED IF BARKLEY WOULD HAVE KNOCKED HIM OUT. If they would have fought 10 times, Barkley beats Duran 8 or 9 times. It was just this fight, that Duran got the only fight that he would have won between the 2.

The fight of Duran-Benitez was supposedley to be originally scheduled for April 78 at the Madison Square Garden of New York at 140 lbs. I betcha it would have been a much DIFFERENT FIGHT if they would have fought at that time.

Did I read a POST saying that NOBODY would beat the Whitaker who fought Chavez?. C'mon that was a blown up Lightweight contest. Surely a Ray Leonard, Duran, Don Curry etc would be too much for Pea, considering he wasn't close on being a natural Welter and Leonard and Curry were big Welters?

Sanchez I feel is cute enough and talented enough not to fall into Peas's type of fight. I just see him being a lot lot tougher han Nelson who basically walked straight at Pea for 12 ds and didn't change tactics once. Sanchez is a lot more versaitile.

walshb wrote:Did I read a POST saying that NOBODY would beat the Whitaker who fought Chavez?. C'mon that was a blown up Lightweight contest. Surely a Ray Leonard, Duran, Don Curry etc would be too much for Pea, considering he wasn't close on being a natural Welter and Leonard and Curry were big Welters?

Sanchez I feel is cute enough and talented enough not to fall into Peas's type of fight. I just see him being a lot lot tougher han Nelson who basically walked straight at Pea for 12 ds and didn't change tactics once. Sanchez is a lot more versaitile.

I agree with this post. Although I still think this is too big of a what if, I think Sanchez's style and versatility would be enough to trouble Whitaker. Also agree with your post mentioning this is a toss up fight.

elmersalsa wrote:In my opinion, the Pernell Whitaker that had that great performance aganist Chavez could have beaten ANY WELTERWEIGHT OR LIGHTWEIGHT of the past. He could have beaten, Kid Gavilan, Ray Leonard, Roberto Duran, Henry Armstrong, Emile Griffith, Carmen Basilio, Wilfred Benitez and even Sugar Ray Robinson

You can keep making your writing bigger and bigger, but it won't make your gibberish any more believable.

DoubleM wrote:

elmersalsa wrote:In my opinion, the Pernell Whitaker that had that great performance aganist Chavez could have beaten ANY WELTERWEIGHT OR LIGHTWEIGHT of the past. He could have beaten, Kid Gavilan, Ray Leonard, Roberto Duran, Henry Armstrong, Emile Griffith, Carmen Basilio, Wilfred Benitez and even Sugar Ray Robinson

You can keep making your writing bigger and bigger, but it won't make your gibberish any more believable.

You better believe it. This is my style of writing, sir

Pernell Whitaker was #1 in boxing cleverness and the best fighter of his generation

I didn't see anything amazing from Whitaker's draw with Julio and certainly nothing that would see him beat Duran as a welter and definitely not Leonad or Curry or Hearns. It's not like he destroyed Julio, he outpointed him, but it wasn't a demolition by any stretch. Julio would not have survived the much heavier hitting and naturally stronger, faster Ray Leonard. It would have been ugly.

walshb wrote:I didn't see anything amazing from Whitaker's draw with Julio and certainly nothing that would see him beat Duran as a welter and definitely not Leonad or Curry or Hearns. It's not like he destroyed Julio, he outpointed him, but it wasn't a demolition by any stretch. Julio would not have survived the much heavier hitting and naturally stronger, faster Ray Leonard. It would have been ugly.

You may not see a destruction, but we as boxing fans got to admire the boxing cleverness that Sweet Pea displayed against a guy that was considered as the best fighter pound per pound in the sport in Chavez.

Let's look at the skill and dexterity of this master. In that fight, Pernell PROBABLY did not lose a round.

We could say that Whitaker would have never beat Leonard or Duran or Robinson, but, in that night, I think he had the skill to beatr any welter or lightweight in history.

elmersalsa wrote:

Borinken25 wrote:

DoubleM wrote: ... Yep, Duran was in top shape. He was also determined to win. However - the point is, Duran was far better at lightweight.

I do agree 100% with that statement.

Duran was a TOTAL DIFFERENT FIGHTER AFTER THE NO MAS. He was absolutely WASHED UP. Just look at his fights before the Benitez fight. He looked old, the fire was not there and neither had the SPEED, something that it was one of Duran's most UNDERRATED ASSETS: SPEED.

And then at 154, Duran STRUGGLED vs Luigi Minchillo and Nino Gonzalez, 2 fighters that if the fight was at least at 147, NONE OF THE 2 would've not last agaisnt the Hands of Stone.

Even the fans in Panama, including the Great Eusebio Pedroza said before the fight with Benitez that Duran was gonna lose big time because El Cholo WAS NOT ACCOSTUMED TO THE WEIGHT CLASS AND WAS WASHED UP. Even when he beat Davey Moore, Duran was washed up. That was not the Duran circa 1972-80, which was a tremendous fighting machine that could slip punches, had underrated speed, and could slip punches giving you angles, SOMETHING THAT I ALSO DID NOT SEE IN THE NO MAS FIGHT.

NO matter how hard Duran trained for the Benitez fight, his speed and movement was NEVER THE SAME like say, the Montreal fight on down to the 70s. That was 21 pounds out of his weight class and also his 5'7" frame could not carry the weight. That is why he lost the majority of the fights going up after 147 lbs.

Likewise, Tito vs Hopkins, it was also a matter of weight discrepency. Tito was a blown up welterweight that started his career at jr welterweight and Hopkins started at light-heavyweight. Who is gonna be more stronger??? Hops or Tito? Hops of course.

A great small fighter cannot beat a bigger and great fighter. That is always THE RULE. And Salvador Sanchez would not escape from THAT RULE EITHER.

I do agree with Elmer on Duran. He was never the same fighter. he could get back into good shape and still look good but he could never get back into the kind of shape needed to beat a defensive master. He simply couldn't set the kind of pace he needed to.

From No mas and onwards Duran could beat certain kinds of fighters as long as he was in the right frame of mind. A guy who would come to him and brawl it out could still be gobbled up but I don't think he beat another slick fighter once he beat Leonard and the old training regime diminshed.

The only one that might cut against this was the Camacho loss that many thought Duran won. I haven't seen this fight and so can't comment.

I watched Leonard-Duran III and the commentators were constantly talking about how little Duran had done and how he was way behind. Anyone who thought Duran could win was simply kidding themselves. Roberto just didn't have the stamina or the speed to do anything.