BoxRec

Ezzard wrote:1. Holyfield
2. Lewis
3. Tyson
4. Bowe

Yup

Lennox Lewis for me.

Tyson is the most explosive & exciting, but not the best.

dempseyfire wrote:I can't believe Lewis is beating Evander in this poll 8-3 right now . . .

I think it partly has to do with the fact of people's memories. Lewis reigned supreme from 2000-2003 despite an embarassing KO loss to Rahman.

Holyfield in that time span has lost to Byrd, Donald, Byrd, and had an awful trilogy with Ruiz.

But at their best, the Real Deal was the best HW.

Lennox dominated the Heavies between Sept 95 and April 2001, including being paid step aside money, and ducked.

Andy Mac wrote:

dempseyfire wrote:I can't believe Lewis is beating Evander in this poll 8-3 right now . . .

I think it partly has to do with the fact of people's memories. Lewis reigned supreme from 2000-2003 despite an embarassing KO loss to Rahman.

Holyfield in that time span has lost to Byrd, Donald, Byrd, and had an awful trilogy with Ruiz.

But at their best, the Real Deal was the best HW.

Lennox dominated the Heavies between Sept 95 and April 2001, including being paid step aside money, and ducked.

From 1995? Lay-off the crack pipe. He had been knocked out by a journeyman a year earlier, and in 1996 was seen on struggling inching by a 35 yr old overweight Mercer. The HW spotlight was rightfully fixated on the Holyfield-Tyson fights. Lewis from McCall to Holyfield was building his case to fight Evander to be the number 1 HW, but beating Morrison, Mavoric, and Briggs did not mean he "dominated" the HW scene.

dempseyfire wrote:

Andy Mac wrote:

dempseyfire wrote:I can't believe Lewis is beating Evander in this poll 8-3 right now . . .

I think it partly has to do with the fact of people's memories. Lewis reigned supreme from 2000-2003 despite an embarassing KO loss to Rahman.

Holyfield in that time span has lost to Byrd, Donald, Byrd, and had an awful trilogy with Ruiz.

But at their best, the Real Deal was the best HW.

Lennox dominated the Heavies between Sept 95 and April 2001, including being paid step aside money, and ducked.

From 1995? Lay-off the crack pipe. He had been knocked out by a journeyman a year earlier, and in 1996 was seen on struggling inching by a 35 yr old overweight Mercer. The HW spotlight was rightfully fixated on the Holyfield-Tyson fights. Lewis from McCall to Holyfield was building his case to fight Evander to be the number 1 HW, but beating Morrison, Mavoric, and Briggs did not mean he "dominated" the HW scene.

Overweight Mercer? PRIME Mercer more like. Or have you forgotten he also gave Holyfield all he could handle the previous year? Perhaps you've also forgotten that while Lewis was getting KO'd by McCall, prime Holyfield was himself losing a decision to Michael Moorer? Who can say they beat Lewis in his prime? Nobody and with the exception of Mercer, Lewis dominated everybody opponent he faced between 1995 and 2001.

Pound for pound is easier than head to head. Holyfield is an easy winner when you factor that. But it's hard to give him the nod over Lewis overall.

After going over many many fight films Holyfield holds up very well in any clinical analyisis you do. Number 1 in heart,skills, chin and effective efficiency. But does that translate into ratings over Lewis? It's very tempting but I stop short of going there on a head to head basis.

I would like giving Evander the niche of greatest Cruiser that ever lived. But that creates an ethical dilemna on my part as to what to do about Ezzard Charles and the LHW division. Though no other alternative weight champion has ever campaigned so effectively in the Heavies...including Ezzard.

Yah gotta be specific Here.. Head to Head at Heavy? Overall performance in those years at Heavy? Peak performance at Heavy?

I assumed that it was Overall in those years. Which is why I'd have it.

Holyfield/Lewis too close to call, Tyson 3rd, Bowe 4th

JCS83MD wrote:Yah gotta be specific Here.. Head to Head at Heavy? Overall performance in those years at Heavy? Peak performance at Heavy?

I assumed that it was Overall in those years. Which is why I'd have it.

Holyfield/Lewis too close to call, Tyson 3rd, Bowe 4th

With those qualifiers...My assessment is about the same...maybe a slight tilt to Lewis based on their head to head moments. But it's so close

Very close calls but here is what I am going with.

1. Holyfield
2. Lewis
3. Bowe
4. Tyson

They all have many plusses and a few minuses.
I have some reservations ranking Holyfield over Bowe since Bowe won their head to series, but Holyfield's wins over Tyson puts him over the top.

Some people also tend to overlook Holyfield's wins before he won the heavyweight title. He was impressive in beating Tillis, Thomas, Dokes, Rodriquez and of course when won the title against Douglas.
Lewis beat Holyfield when Holyfield was well past it, and I still don't think he really beat Holyfield in their second fight against an over the hill Holyfield. Holyfield wins over Tyson are more impressive than Lewis since Tyson seemed to past it by then.

Lewis always seems to garner a wide range of opinion because most people only seem to look at his big plusses or his big minuses.
On the negative side Lewis was stopped to both McCall and Rahman. He also was lucky to get decisions against Holyfield in their second fight as well as against Ray Mercer.
However Lewis beat many good fighters and had a lot of impressive performances. He should also get a little credit for whipping tyson. although Tyson performed horribly, Lewis did not.

I do think that people severely underrate Bowe. Not fighting Lewis should be held against Bowe. However, people should also look at what Bowe did do. He lost one fight in his career and that was a close decision to Holyfield. He gets knocked for "only" beating one great fighter but he beat some other good fighters as well.
Bowe did beat Thomas, Tubbs, Seldon, Donald. Who did Tyson ever beat that was so much better?

A lot of people seem to only remember his subpar performances against Golota. However, Holyfield looked bad against Moorer, Tyson got knocked out by Douglas, and Lewis got stopped by McCall and Rahman. The Golota fights should be held against Bowe, but he shouldn't be primarily be remembered for his two worst peformances in fights that he techincally did win.

Tyson beat more alphabet soup guys, but that simply isn't enough to rate him above the very best. Those wins were enough to rate him about everyone else in the era but not higher than the cream of the crop. Holyfield, Lewis and Bowe beat enough of those kind of guys.

I love to see anyone make a case for my sentimental favorite in this group. And I have to add that his entire body of work has always seemed superior to the others. That should count for something.

BoxBuzz wrote:Pound for pound is easier than head to head. Holyfield is an easy winner when you factor that.


I would like giving Evander the niche of greatest Cruiser that ever lived. But that creates an ethical dilemna on my part as to what to do about Ezzard Charles and the LHW division.

If you're going to name a greatest Cruiser...you must consider Marciano! A cruiser by modern standards, 185-187 at his peak...

Sweet Scientist wrote:

BoxBuzz wrote:Pound for pound is easier than head to head. Holyfield is an easy winner when you factor that.


I would like giving Evander the niche of greatest Cruiser that ever lived. But that creates an ethical dilemna on my part as to what to do about Ezzard Charles and the LHW division.

If you're going to name a greatest Cruiser...you must consider Marciano! A cruiser by modern standards, 185-187 at his peak...

Hmmm... what about Joe Louis? He came in around 200 during his prime, and with previous day weight-in he could easily have made the cruiser limit.

Bowe does not rank among the top heavyweights because of his lack of longevity and the fact that his career is unimpressive aside from the Holyfield fights. Tyson's resume is far superior.

kovit wrote:I still rank Tyson #1, then Holyfield #2, Lennox Lewis at #3, and Riddick Bowe at #4, because Tyson beats more champions in his time of his reign than Holyfield, Lewis, and Bowe.

Or becasue your american and biased?

dempseyfire wrote:

Andy Mac wrote:

dempseyfire wrote:I can't believe Lewis is beating Evander in this poll 8-3 right now . . .

I think it partly has to do with the fact of people's memories. Lewis reigned supreme from 2000-2003 despite an embarassing KO loss to Rahman.

Holyfield in that time span has lost to Byrd, Donald, Byrd, and had an awful trilogy with Ruiz.

But at their best, the Real Deal was the best HW.

Lennox dominated the Heavies between Sept 95 and April 2001, including being paid step aside money, and ducked.

From 1995? Lay-off the crack pipe. He had been knocked out by a journeyman a year earlier, and in 1996 was seen on struggling inching by a 35 yr old overweight Mercer. The HW spotlight was rightfully fixated on the Holyfield-Tyson fights. Lewis from McCall to Holyfield was building his case to fight Evander to be the number 1 HW, but beating Morrison, Mavoric, and Briggs did not mean he "dominated" the HW scene.

The heavyweight spotlight was fixated on Tyson/Holyfield becasue Tyson was the cash cow/freak show.
He also paid Lennox money to avoid fighting him,because he knew Lennox would have beat him up a lot worse than old Evander ever did.
Even whilst they were playing that little scenario out,Lennox was the best in the division.

1.Lewis
2.Holyfield
3.Tyson
4.Bowe

It's a shame Bowe did'nt live upto his promise.He achieved a lot,but in terms of heavyweight ability,this little poll should have been him and Lennox fighting it out for 1st place.

This here is pretty much a slam dunk. Beyond my expectations. Also beyond my expectations is that more people rank Lewis 6-10 ATG than 11-20 (although I personally agree).

Heartbreak Kid, still think this forum is biased against Lewis?

pundit wrote:This here is pretty much a slam dunk. Beyond my expectations. Also beyond my expectations is that more people rank Lewis 6-10 ATG than 11-20 (although I personally agree).

Heartbreak Kid, still think this forum is biased against Lewis?

Your not petal

Cojimar 1945 wrote:Bowe does not rank among the top heavyweights because of his lack of longevity and the fact that his career is unimpressive aside from the Holyfield fights. Tyson's resume is far superior.

Why is Tyson's resume far superior to Bowe's?
Bowe beat Holyfield and Tyson couldn't.
Bowe only lost one fight in his career and that was a close decision to Holyfield.
Tyson got knocked out by Buster Douglas.
Bowe beat Thomas,Tubbs, Seldon, Donald. Who did Tyson ever beat that so much better?

holyfields_ear wrote:

dempseyfire wrote:

Andy Mac wrote: Lennox dominated the Heavies between Sept 95 and April 2001, including being paid step aside money, and ducked.

From 1995? Lay-off the crack pipe. He had been knocked out by a journeyman a year earlier, and in 1996 was seen on struggling inching by a 35 yr old overweight Mercer. The HW spotlight was rightfully fixated on the Holyfield-Tyson fights. Lewis from McCall to Holyfield was building his case to fight Evander to be the number 1 HW, but beating Morrison, Mavoric, and Briggs did not mean he "dominated" the HW scene.

Overweight Mercer? PRIME Mercer more like. Or have you forgotten he also gave Holyfield all he could handle the previous year? Perhaps you've also forgotten that while Lewis was getting KO'd by McCall, prime Holyfield was himself losing a decision to Michael Moorer? Who can say they beat Lewis in his prime? Nobody and with the exception of Mercer, Lewis dominated everybody opponent he faced between 1995 and 2001.

The difference regarding Mercer is that Holufield legitimately beat Mercer. It was a tough fight but there is not doubt that holyfield deserved the decision against Mercer.
Lewis got the decison against Mercer but didn't deserve it. You will have a hard time finding 6 rounds that Lewis won that fight.

pundit wrote:This here is pretty much a slam dunk. Beyond my expectations. Also beyond my expectations is that more people rank Lewis 6-10 ATG than 11-20 (although I personally agree).

Heartbreak Kid, still think this forum is biased against Lewis?

How is it a slam dunk that Lewis is better?
Pundit, you have often said that Marciano's reputatuon is based mainly on beating old fighters, and to some extent I agree.
However,who is the best fighter that Lewis ever beat that was under 36?
Ruddock, Rahman, Tua? That's not enough to rate him ahead of Holyfield.
Holyfield was 36 when he fought Lewis the first time and was clearly past. And people were saying this years before he ever fought Lewis.

Holyfield beat Tyson when Tyson was 30; Tyson was 36 when fought Lewis.
Holyfield had only one bad loss in his career; the decision loss to Moorer. But at least he went the distance.
Lewis got stopped twice to fighters worse than Moorer. You can argue that the McCall fight was stopped prematurely but he was kncoked out cold by Rahman.
Pundit and Kid Heartbreak - How is this forum (in general) biased against Lewis? A few people don't seem to factor in his accomplishments. However more seem to overlook his negatives. After all, more than half have voted for him in this poll.

Ambling Alp wrote:

pundit wrote:This here is pretty much a slam dunk. Beyond my expectations. Also beyond my expectations is that more people rank Lewis 6-10 ATG than 11-20 (although I personally agree).

Heartbreak Kid, still think this forum is biased against Lewis?

How is it a slam dunk that Lewis is better?

The result of the poll is a slam dunk, my friend, not the comparison of fighters itself. In my personal opinion Lewis is just a small margin above Holyfield. But it seems many folks think like this, hence the poll's outcome.

As for Lewis' best fights, I agree that the Holyfield bouts are by far the most significiant (even though Holyfiled was old), but don't forget Razor Ruddock and Andrew Golota. Both were considered top notch contenders and below 30 when Lewis made short work of them.

Btw, I started this poll exactly because I believed that Heartbreak Kid's claim that Lewis was underappreciated is incorrect.

Cheers,
P

Tyson beat Berbick, James Smith, Tony Tucker, Tony Tubbs, Frank Bruno and Donovan Ruddock to name a few. These wins surpass what Bowe did by a good margin. Many people feel an older Tubbs than the one Tyson demolished beat Bowe. Bowe failed to fight most of his top contemporaries and his only really impressive wins are against Holyfield. You need to beat more than one top guy to rate highly. Seldon lost to all the top guys he faced and Thomas was totally shot when he fought Bowe.

Decagon wrote:

Ambling Alp wrote:The difference regarding Mercer is that Holufield legitimately beat Mercer. It was a tough fight but there is not doubt that holyfield deserved the decision against Mercer.
Lewis got the decison against Mercer but didn't deserve it. You will have a hard time finding 6 rounds that Lewis won that fight.

You'll have an even harder time finding six rounds that Mercer won. It was a close fight, and even in the rounds that Mercer won, Lewis was doing good work. Hell, I'd say that he did more damage in that fight than Mercer did; Mercer simply was good at absorbing punishment.

Wow. You seriously think Lewis did more more damage than Mercer in that fight? Mercer defintely won rounds convincingly than Lewis did.

Cojimar 1945 wrote:Tyson beat Berbick, James Smith, Tony Tucker, Tony Tubbs, Frank Bruno and Donovan Ruddock to name a few. These wins surpass what Bowe did by a good margin. Many people feel an older Tubbs than the one Tyson demolished beat Bowe. Bowe failed to fight most of his top contemporaries and his only really impressive wins are against Holyfield. You need to beat more than one top guy to rate highly. Seldon lost to all the top guys he faced and Thomas was totally shot when he fought Bowe.

Many people feel that Tubbs beat Bowe? Are you one of them?
Bowe had a lot less trouble with Jesse Ferguson than Tyson did.
Do you really think that Bowe would have lost to Berbick, Smith, Tucker, Bruno or Ruddock?
Those wins for Tyson aren't enough to overcome his shortcomings when compared to Bowe.
Bowe never lost to to anyone except for the close decision loss to Holyfield. Tyson actually got knocked out by Buster Douglas.
Bowe beat a younger and better Holyfield than the aging Holyfield that stopped Tyson.

pundit wrote:

Ambling Alp wrote:

pundit wrote:This here is pretty much a slam dunk. Beyond my expectations. Also beyond my expectations is that more people rank Lewis 6-10 ATG than 11-20 (although I personally agree).

Heartbreak Kid, still think this forum is biased against Lewis?

How is it a slam dunk that Lewis is better?

The result of the poll is a slam dunk, my friend, not the comparison of fighters itself. In my personal opinion Lewis is just a small margin above Holyfield. But it seems many folks think like this, hence the poll's outcome.

As for Lewis' best fights, I agree that the Holyfield bouts are by far the most significiant (even though Holyfiled was old), but don't forget Razor Ruddock and Andrew Golota. Both were considered top notch contenders and below 30 when Lewis made short work of them.

Btw, I started this poll exactly because I believed that Heartbreak Kid's claim that Lewis was underappreciated is incorrect.

Cheers,
P

Sorry Pundit, I guess I misunderstood you. I thought that you were agreeing with the Heartbreak Kid. I also thought you meant that Lewis was way better than Holyfield when you were talking about a slam dunk.
I agree that Lewis was impressive against Ruddock and Golota, though that doesn't seem to be enough to rate him ahead of Holyfield.

It is surprising that the voting isn't closer.
Maybe it's that Holyfield has fought for so long past his prime that people don't remember how good he once was. It seems like no one ever mentions his knockouts against Thomas, Dokes, Stewart, and Tillis, before he knocked out Douglas.