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Posted: 28 Nov 2006, 22:25
by Sweet Scientist
DoubleM wrote:Some fighters will take their beating and be content settling for a loss, others will take their beating but refuse to lose.
The thread subject is 'heart', not talent level....Gatti's heart is surely not in question...his ability to continue valiantly in the face of defeat demonstrates that...
Perhaps, if Gatti was of a higher skill level...his 'heart' would be a less noticable...
Ali certainly had 'heart', but it was most demonstrated after his skills (speed/reflexes) declined after the layoff...
Frazier certainly demonstrated 'heart' in the Ali fights...but how much did he demonstrate against...say Bob Foster...chopping him down in 2 rounds?
Posted: 28 Nov 2006, 23:41
by Collins2000
Decagon wrote:Chavez was a quitter. No fucking way he ranks up there with LaMotta, Robinson, Walker and Greb.
Yes, you are correct. This is certainly one thread that Chavez doesn't belong in. No doubt it will upset his fans who, like the Klithuggers believe their man can do no wrong, but his actions in the Randall fight disqualify him from this thread.
Posted: 29 Nov 2006, 06:07
by DoubleM
Sweet Scientist wrote:DoubleM wrote:Some fighters will take their beating and be content settling for a loss, others will take their beating but refuse to lose.
The thread subject is 'heart', not talent level....Gatti's heart is surely not in question...his ability to continue valiantly in the face of defeat demonstrates that...
Perhaps, if Gatti was of a higher skill level...his 'heart' would be a less noticable...
Ali certainly had 'heart', but it was most demonstrated after his skills (speed/reflexes) declined after the layoff...
Frazier certainly demonstrated 'heart' in the Ali fights...but how much did he demonstrate against...say Bob Foster...chopping him down in 2 rounds?
?
Posted: 29 Nov 2006, 14:27
by Jaclem
.....doublem..you beat me to this with the ?????? i was awake all night tryiing to figure out what the hell that meant.
Posted: 29 Nov 2006, 15:16
by Borinken25
I think what he meant is that skills doesn't equal heart. You can have all the skills in the world and not the heart like some fighters which I don't want to get into, and you have fighters with limited skills that have a huge heart and are not recognized because of their limited boxing skills. Gotti is a fighter with limited boxing skills and a huge heart the ultimately got him the attention of a great fighter. He was a big draw in boxing and it wasn't because of his skills, it was just that many people enjoy his bravery in the ring.
Of course that is just my opinion.
Posted: 30 Nov 2006, 11:38
by silkov
Decagon wrote:Gatti did have the skills. He just lacked the heart to go into the gym and develop them.
Only you would try and deny Gatti even had heart!!... Ali didnt exactly train like a demon in his latter career, does that mean he lacked heart??.... training hard and having a big heart in the ring is two totally different things, plenty of fighters are great gym trainers but havent got the heart in the ring during the actual fight!....
Posted: 30 Nov 2006, 19:20
by silkov
Posted: 30 Nov 2006, 22:54
by Borinken25
Decagon wrote:I wouldn't rank anyone among the top 20 greatest hearts of all time if he didn't train hard in the gym.
I think you are confusing commitment, dedication and discipline with heart as in balls in the ring. Gatti was fearless in the ring but lacked the discipline and commitment outside of the ring. Two totally different things. I think that is the point that silkov is trying to make and I agree with him on this one.
Posted: 01 Dec 2006, 07:40
by MightyWarrior
Wilfredo Gomez without a doubt.
Posted: 01 Dec 2006, 08:18
by silkov
Decagon wrote:Yeah, he lacked HEART in the gym. eff Gatti and all those guys who can't get off their ass.
Oh dear, you are bitter are'nt you mate, whats your problem?... you must be the most miserable git on this forum... how about coming up with a list of your own or some positive comments for a change?...
Posted: 01 Dec 2006, 08:21
by silkov
MightyWarrior wrote:Wilfredo Gomez without a doubt.
Yeah, Gomez is a good one, a real warrior in the ring... he was another one though who didnt like to train, but this thread is about real warriors in the ring not gym rats who have no heart when its time for the real fighting...
Posted: 01 Dec 2006, 08:28
by silkov
Borinken25 wrote:Decagon wrote:I wouldn't rank anyone among the top 20 greatest hearts of all time if he didn't train hard in the gym.
I think you are confusing commitment, dedication and discipline with heart as in balls in the ring. Gatti was fearless in the ring but lacked the discipline and commitment outside of the ring. Two totally different things. I think that is the point that silkov is trying to make and I agree with him on this one.
The concept of sticking to the subject of the thread is a bit beyond Dec at this point I think... plenty of people can do the training but not the fighting, who cares about the guys who trained like demons but couldnt take it in the ring?? Anyway to say Gatti had no discipline is just stupid, no fighter would last in the game for as long as he did if they didnt have some discipline and what about the way Gatti turned his career and style around when he got together with Mcgirt?.... Dec is talking rubbish as usual.... 8)
Posted: 01 Dec 2006, 18:28
by silkov
Decagon wrote:Um, I wouldn't rank someone who trained hard but couldn't get it done in the ring as one of the 20 fighters with the greatest hearts, either. There have been plenty of fighters who fought with as much heart as Gatti did in the ring, but they also got it done in the gym. I'd rather rank those fighters.
Well lets see a list then?... try and give something positive back for a change rather than just bleating about who you dont like!....
Posted: 02 Dec 2006, 11:49
by silkov
Decagon wrote:I'd rather work on my featherweight lists, or something like that.
Well dont let me keep you here then!... 8) if you cant be bothered putting something positive back into this thread... actually when was the last time you said anything positive on this forum??... must be years ago!... 8)
Posted: 02 Dec 2006, 12:04
by Expug
Decagon wrote:He sure deserves it a lot more than Arturo Gatti, who was an alcoholic, talentless bum with a good promoter. And why no mention of Harry Greb? He tore into heavyweights all the time, and he wasn't exactly a runner. He went right at them, winging shots.
The thing is Dec.
Your not giving Gatti any credit for having heart because of his poor training habits , but Greb is the all time skirt chasing saloon brawling no gym training champ.
Posted: 02 Dec 2006, 12:07
by silkov
expug wrote:Decagon wrote:He sure deserves it a lot more than Arturo Gatti, who was an alcoholic, talentless bum with a good promoter. And why no mention of Harry Greb? He tore into heavyweights all the time, and he wasn't exactly a runner. He went right at them, winging shots.
The thing is Dec.
Your not giving Gatti any credit for having heart because of his poor training habits , but Greb is the all time skirt chasing saloon brawling no gym training champ.
Dec's just trying to turn this thread into an argument and get attention for himself, he cant even be bothered to do his own list!...
Posted: 02 Dec 2006, 19:25
by Sweet Scientist
Jaclem wrote:.....doublem..you beat me to this with the ?????? i was awake all night tryiing to figure out what the hell that meant.
Awfully sorry about the insomnia...next time try a glass of apricot brandy and a tape of the Ali-Evangelista fight...usually works in about 15 minutes...
The point I was trying to make was: talent/skill level has an impact on the preception of 'heart'...
You have to face adversity (and survive it) to show 'heart'...
Nobody was mentioning Ali's heart much through 1967...only after the layoff induced diminished skills, when he was no longer able to use leg speed/stamina to stay away...then, after the layoff, when he found himself in some serious struggles, he suddenly was perceived to have great 'heart'...
Gatti has great 'heart'...but if he had the defensive skills of a Pernell Whitaker, would he still be perceived to have 'heart'?
Does Floyd Mayweather have 'heart'? How can you tell about a fighter's heart when he never seems to face adversity? When he's never seriously challenged?
If this is going to keep you up all night, please refer to the first line of the post...
Posted: 02 Dec 2006, 19:35
by BoxBuzz
I see what your saying here....If your dominating or successfully defending your "heart" is unknown. It does make some sense. You may be "in the fire" but unless it's visible to others no one is going to notice or mention it.
Example...Does Edwin Valero have heart? Who knew up until his last fight...and then we only got a glimpse of what may or may not be . Has Pacquio been in trouble yet? So his status may be unknown as well.
Posted: 02 Dec 2006, 20:35
by Expug
If a fighter hangs around long enough, its something that will be revealed...
There is always going to be a moment of truth.
Posted: 03 Dec 2006, 11:05
by silkov
Decagon wrote:BoxBuzz wrote:Example...Does Edwin Valero have heart? Who knew up until his last fight...and then we only got a glimpse of what may or may not be . Has Pacquio been in trouble yet? So his status may be unknown as well.
That's why I maintain that what a fighter does in the gym is very important in determining how good his heart is. Before the Marquez fight, there was word that Pacquiao was spending more time playing pool than training for the fight. Guess what? His lack of preparation cost him a fight that should have been a clear win. Sure, you can argue - very well - that Pacquiao did deserve the decision, and that only a questionable 10-7 scorecard in the first round cost him the victory. But if Pacquiao had trained just a little harder, he might not have lost that one round that was the difference between a draw and a win on the deciding judge's scorecard. He might have stopped Marquez in the first, and he might have done a little better.
Give me a fighter like Floyd Mayweather. Sure, some people would say that he hasn't been tested, but look at the Judah fight. After four rounds, he was down 39-37, arguably 39-36. He dug down deep and won seven of the next eight rounds. You've never heard of Mayweather slacking off in the gym, at least not in the past five years.
Jeeze, try finding out the subject of the thread!!... I can just picture you in some downtown bar drooling into your beer and moaning about how Gatti aint got no heart cause he dont train properly!!! ...funny how you dont mention the likes of Gomez or Chacon as well!!.... those guys never trained very much either why the fixation on Gatti?... did he run off with your wife or something...
8) ...
Posted: 03 Dec 2006, 11:23
by silkov
Decagon wrote:BoxBuzz wrote:Example...Does Edwin Valero have heart? Who knew up until his last fight...and then we only got a glimpse of what may or may not be . Has Pacquio been in trouble yet? So his status may be unknown as well.
That's why I maintain that what a fighter does in the gym is very important in determining how good his heart is. Before the Marquez fight, there was word that Pacquiao was spending more time playing pool than training for the fight. Guess what? His lack of preparation cost him a fight that should have been a clear win. Sure, you can argue - very well - that Pacquiao did deserve the decision, and that only a questionable 10-7 scorecard in the first round cost him the victory. But if Pacquiao had trained just a little harder, he might not have lost that one round that was the difference between a draw and a win on the deciding judge's scorecard. He might have stopped Marquez in the first, and he might have done a little better.
Give me a fighter like Floyd Mayweather. Sure, some people would say that he hasn't been tested, but look at the Judah fight. After four rounds, he was down 39-37, arguably 39-36. He dug down deep and won seven of the next eight rounds. You've never heard of Mayweather slacking off in the gym, at least not in the past five years.
Yeah, Mayweather likes to train by using his women as a sparring partner!... that must take a huge heart I'd say!...
Posted: 03 Dec 2006, 15:20
by silkov
Posted: 04 Dec 2006, 10:34
by silkov
Posted: 05 Dec 2006, 12:42
by silkov
Decagon wrote:The only footage available of Greb is of him training. Go to
http://www.harry greb.com Read any in-depth autobiography of Ali, and you'll read about him slapping around his wife Sonja, his father and Drew Brown. Ali was a mean man. Joe Frazier's kids had to go to school with everyone calling them gorillas.
Get a life mate youre just a troll... I'm not wasting my time on you anymore, you talk so much crap....
Posted: 06 Dec 2006, 07:12
by DoubleM
Decagon wrote:Ali was an asshole. There's no secret about that. Is Floyd Mayweather an asshole, too? Sure.
Don't know, but he does act pretty stupid.