Dempsey - Lewis

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 18 Dec 2006, 11:41

Dempsey destroyed a big man in Willard while Lewis got stopped by McCall and Rahman, so Dempsey destroys Lewis. I prefer this scenario, Dempsey got KO'd by Flynn, dropped by Anderson, dropped twice by 189 lb Tunney, outboxed by Sharkey for most of there bout, and couldn't KO a 175 lb LHW in 15 rds, while Lewis destroyed Razor Ruddock in 2, Rahman and McCall in there rematches, and made David Tua think twice about trying to get inside. Therefore Lewis destroys Dempsey.

Heartbreak_Kid79 · Post by **Heartbreak_Kid79** » 18 Dec 2006, 13:42

You can't compare Lewis to Williard.
Dempsey flattened the bigger man Williard. Big deal!

You can't assume that he'd KO lewis just because he ko'd a bigger man in willard.

Lewis was highly skilled, a much better fighter than big men from the pre-war era such as Willard and Primo Carnera.

And before the inevitable Mccall and Rahman crap, both those fighters were big 250 pound hitters, a 190 lb Dempsey was a better fighter than Rahman/McCall but would not have the power that they have.

And i'm sure Lewis would have taken the fight seriously!
That was his weakness, overcomplacency

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 18 Dec 2006, 14:31

Heartbreak_Kid79 wrote:You can't compare Lewis to Williard.
Dempsey flattened the bigger man Williard. Big deal!

You can't assume that he'd KO lewis just because he ko'd a bigger man in willard.

Lewis was highly skilled, a much better fighter than big men from the pre-war era such as Willard and Primo Carnera.

And before the inevitable Mccall and Rahman crap, both those fighters were big 250 pound hitters, a 190 lb Dempsey was a better fighter than Rahman/McCall but would not have the power that they have.

And i'm sure Lewis would have taken the fight seriously!
That was his weakness, overcomplacency

Like (presumably) you I have Lewis higher in my pfp ratings than Dempsey who avoided most serious opponents when he was champ. But this is only one part of the question. The other one is styles, and here it seems pretty clear to me that Dempsey had EXACTLY the style Lewis did not like -- vicious pressurefighting -- while Lewis' style is not somehting that troubled Dempsey particularly. On the basis of this I'd go for Dempsey.

Besides, in 1920 an in-shape Lewis would have weighed in at 220 at most, while in 2000 Dempsey would have weighted in at 220. The weight difference isn't as big as the numbers, taken literally, suggest.

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 18 Dec 2006, 15:12

Heartbreak_Kid79 wrote:You can't compare Lewis to Williard.
Dempsey flattened the bigger man Williard. Big deal!

You can't assume that he'd KO lewis just because he ko'd a bigger man in willard.

Lewis was highly skilled, a much better fighter than big men from the pre-war era such as Willard and Primo Carnera.

And before the inevitable Mccall and Rahman crap, both those fighters were big 250 pound hitters, a 190 lb Dempsey was a better fighter than Rahman/McCall but would not have the power that they have.

And i'm sure Lewis would have taken the fight seriously!
That was his weakness, overcomplacency

Firstly, don't exagerate. Both Rahman and McCall weighed in the 230s. Rahman was incredibly musclebound and slow . . .look at how slow he punches in Lewis I. It's a sad performance by both sides.

Dempsey was MUCH quicker and had much more skills than rolly polly Tua, who had snail's legs and was basically a sitting duck for Lewis's left jab and movement. Dempsey's aggression plus his very quick feet which allowed him to "spring" in and out, is something Lewis never had to worry about vs the heavy Tua or Mercer.

I have no doubt that Dempsey's left hook was just as damaging a shot as any punch McCall threw. Just b/c you are 230 lbs and muscled up doesn't mean you hit harder than a 190 lb man. If this was true than Tye Fields circa 2002 would be the hardest puncher in Heavyweight history.

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 18 Dec 2006, 15:38

Heartbreak_Kid79 wrote:
Collins2000 wrote:The Mauler would prove once again that the man of Jamaican heritage, UK birth and Canadian upbringing had a chin that, at this level, was pure China.

Dempsey KO 1

Ridiculous

Really? So, it's not conceivable that a guy who was flattened twice by stiffs could be flattened by an ATG? You need to get your hand off your dick, mate.

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 18 Dec 2006, 17:25

Decagon wrote:
dempseyfire wrote:I have no doubt that Dempsey's left hook was just as damaging a shot as any punch McCall threw.
How are you sure of that? McCall has a lot of one-punch power, and Dempsey's strength was in his combination punching, not his one-punch ability. Also, Dempsey didn't prove his greatness by taking on the top black fighters of his day.

Dempsey had a large number of one-punch knockouts.

"top black fighters" . . . .by the 1919-1920, the only top black fighter you could argue Dempsey avoided was Willis (and we aren't going to beat around that bush again) It wasn't like the 1980s . . .most of the top HWs were white. Jeanette, Mcvey and Langford were either retired or WAY past it, and Godfrey was still green.

BTW I cannot concieve someone like Dave Jaco or Sedrick Fields lasting the distance vs Dempsey.

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 18 Dec 2006, 17:29

I can't see 190 lb fighters KO'ing 245 lb fighters, other than in very rare instances. That's why we have the Cruiserweight Division, which by the way with it's 25 lb weight range is thoroughly dominated by fighters who weigh near the top limit.

barry · Post by **barry** » 18 Dec 2006, 17:44

Dempsey never avoided anyone and as was stated...really the only colored fighter who had a solid claim for a title shot was Wills, but it wasn't Dempsey's fault that the bout did not happen...there are a lot of reasons that the fight did not happen...most of which were political!

>>>I can't see 190 lb fighters KO'ing 245 lb fighters, other than in very rare instances.<<<

Dempsey-Willard and several others of that girth.
Louis-Carnera and several others of the equal girth.
Fitzsimmons-vs-several of equal girth.
Tommy Gomez kayoed several large men even though he was a small heavyweight.

There are loads and loads of examples of 190 pound, even 180 pound men knocking out 240+ pound men...a lot more than I could name off the top off my head...and when the 240, or 260 pound man has the chin of a strong middleweight, well light-hitting heavyweights score a KO.

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 18 Dec 2006, 17:46

Seamus wrote:I can't see 190 lb fighters KO'ing 245 lb fighters, other than in very rare instances. That's why we have the Cruiserweight Division, which by the way with it's 25 lb weight range is thoroughly dominated by fighters who weigh near the top limit.

Dempsey would come in at 220 pounds at least were he to fight today. He would not be a Cruiser.

monkeybusiness · Post by **monkeybusiness** » 18 Dec 2006, 17:50

I think Lewis would smash him up, and early. It's not that Dempsey wasn't a great fighter but he was so much smaller than Lewis- a big guy with excellent skills. Willard was nowhere near on the level of Lewis so to cite that as an example of what might happen seems a bit strange. Dempsey the champion had a pretty easy worklaod (five low-risk defences in seven years) then lost to Tunney who boxed enough to tame Dempsey's savagery. I think Lewis, also a great boxer and with heavy hands would KO Jack in about four or five rounds.
Plus he drew the race line didnt he? Would he have fought Lewis anyway!?!

barry · Post by **barry** » 18 Dec 2006, 18:01

Willard was a hell of a lot better than most assume he was. Remember, he took it to and beat Jack Johnson when Johnson was still a great heavyweight. The flack he gets nowadays is largly innocent as those making the claim do so on little actual research and mainly on the same, half-assed theory, or claim that Willard was a bum. He was far from being a bum and aside from maybe Luther McCarty, Willard was the best of the white hope area and there were some good heavyweights in that bunch. Take Lewis' skill, which is quite better than Willard, take Willards chin which is quite better than Lewis...take Lewis' punching power which was a little better than Willard, take Willard's endurance which was a little better than Lewis...equal in size, equal in intelligence and comparing Willard and Lewis is not as far out of the question as some might like to think...especially the chin part, which we have seen time and time again that a great chin will often negate better skill! Was Willard better, or even as good as Lewis...no, not at all, but he sure as hell was not nearly as bad as some like to claim, but then again, a person would really have to do some thorough research to get the just of Willard's career instead of basing it on the one beating that he took from Dempsey!!!!

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 18 Dec 2006, 18:16

I never understand this argument, that sounds very contradictory. First I hear weight means nothing at all, than I hear Louis, Dempsey, Marciano etc would simply put on 10-20 lbs. If weight means nothing, than why not fight at your best weight ?

All the various examples of 180-190 lb fighters beating bigger fighters doesn't change the fact that only 2 fighters, Michael Spinks who only fought once as a HW under 200, and Roy Jones Jr who beat a horrendous John Ruiz, are the only fighters under 200 to win a HW belt in over 21 years. I keep hearing how weak the HW division is, and how easy a good 200 pounder would clean it out. Well, I'll believe it when I see it, because almost all the top prospects out there are over 230, some in fact are much bigger.

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 18 Dec 2006, 18:26

Seamus wrote:I never understand this argument, that sounds very contradictory. First I hear weight means nothing at all, than I hear Louis, Dempsey, Marciano etc would simply put on 10-20 lbs. If weight means nothing, than why not fight at your best weight ?

Because in the 1920s and 1930s fighters trained and ate differently.

Plus there is the factor noone talks about -- steroids. they've become widespread in heavyweight boxing since the early 1980s only. Since then, the average weight of top 30 heavyweights has increased much faster than the average height.

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 18 Dec 2006, 20:18

Decagon wrote:That doesn't mean he has a China chin. Both times he got knocked out, Lewis walked right into the punch. And let's not forget Dempsey was knocked out by a bum, too.

In his prime, Zac?

Or even while defending his title?

Loki · Post by **Loki** » 19 Dec 2006, 13:05

Dempsey by KO in rounds 4 - 6.

Although both are certainly in my all time top 10, only prime Tyson had more aggression and bad intensions in his attacks than Dempsey.

I might consider picking Lewis in the re-match.

Also, the racial element has nothing to do with being champion. A fighter is a fighter. Black, White or Yellow.

People are just so thick to call Dempsey "a white champion" and if Lewis did say he would be embarrassed to lose to a white man, remind him of Vitali Klitschko.

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 19 Dec 2006, 13:13

Loki wrote:People are just so thick to call Dempsey "a white champion" and if Lewis did say he would be embarrassed to lose to a white man, remind him of Vitali Klitschko.

What?

Heartbreak_Kid79 · Post by **Heartbreak_Kid79** » 19 Dec 2006, 13:40

Loki wrote:Dempsey by KO in rounds 4 - 6.

Although both are certainly in my all time top 10, only prime Tyson had more aggression and bad intensions in his attacks than Dempsey.
I might consider picking Lewis in the re-match.
Also, the racial element has nothing to do with being champion. A fighter is a fighter. Black, White or Yellow.
People are just so thick to call Dempsey "a white champion" and if Lewis did say he would be embarrassed to lose to a white man, remind him of Vitali Klitschko.

When did Lewis ever say he would be embarassed to lose to a white man??

Or are you just making that up?

Heartbreak_Kid79 · Post by **Heartbreak_Kid79** » 19 Dec 2006, 13:42

Dempsey did draw the race line.

How would he have compared to a prime Jack Johnson or Sam Langford then?

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 19 Dec 2006, 13:44

Heartbreak_Kid79 wrote:Dempsey did draw the race line.

How would he have compared to a prime Jack Johnson or Sam Langford then?

Dempsey didn't overlap much with Langford and even less with Johnson. The question is more how he would have done against Harry Wills, some time between 1919-1923. This is THE heavyweight bout that should have but never has been done.

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 19 Dec 2006, 13:59

Lewis-Dempsey is an interesting and difficult fight to call. It's not hard to imagine Dempsey jumping all over Lewis and stopping him. It's also not hard to imagine Lewis catching Dempsey on the way in and dropping him.
It has been interesting seeing commnets.
If Rahman and McCall could ko Lewis, then Dempsey. this is true. The big question is how likely that Dempsey would do it?
Dempsey got ko'd by Flynn so why Lewis could do it as well. Also true. Again, how likely is it?

What always interests me is when people talk about Lewis is that for some reason people confuse his strengths and weaknesses.
His detractors say he had a weak chin. He didn't. It was rock solid, but it was pretty good. He was only on the deck twice in his entire career. The punch that Rahman would have knocked almost anyone out (including Dempsey)

Lewis supporters often say he had a great jab. He didn't. Often he would just paw with it. It was never in the league of Ali's or Holmes'. An ultra aggressive fighter would get through it a lot. This what favors Demspey.

There are many scenarios that could happen in this fight. Either fighter could win early or late. The odds are that Dempsey gets to him sooner or later. I would pick Dempsey to win 6 out of 10 times.

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 19 Dec 2006, 15:58

Decagon wrote:
dempseyfire wrote:BTW I cannot concieve someone like Dave Jaco or Sedrick Fields lasting the distance vs Dempsey.
I cannot conceive the thought of someone like Joe Bonds or Terry Keller lasting the distance against Lewis.

Those fights happened when Dempsey was fighting at least twice a month, under-nourished. Back then Jack was fighting from paycheck to paycheck . . he didn't have a 7 week training camp in the mountains and a private cook and a big HBO pre-show before each fight. Under those conditions, I can def. see Lewis and McCall going the distance vs some rugged journeyman as Dempsey did.

The Flynn KO loss was rife with speculation and stories. Considering he never got knocked out again in his career, I don't believe that was an 100% Dempsey in there.

Jack won the rematch with a KO1. Lennox beat McCall b/c the former had a crack induced breakdown.

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 19 Dec 2006, 15:59

Ambling Alp wrote:Lewis-Dempsey is an interesting and difficult fight to call. It's not hard to imagine Dempsey jumping all over Lewis and stopping him. It's also not hard to imagine Lewis catching Dempsey on the way in and dropping him.
It has been interesting seeing commnets.
If Rahman and McCall could ko Lewis, then Dempsey. this is true. The big question is how likely that Dempsey would do it?
Dempsey got ko'd by Flynn so why Lewis could do it as well. Also true. Again, how likely is it?

What always interests me is when people talk about Lewis is that for some reason people confuse his strengths and weaknesses.
His detractors say he had a weak chin. He didn't. It was rock solid, but it was pretty good. He was only on the deck twice in his entire career. The punch that Rahman would have knocked almost anyone out (including Dempsey)

Lewis supporters often say he had a great jab. He didn't. Often he would just paw with it. It was never in the league of Ali's or Holmes'. An ultra aggressive fighter would get through it a lot. This what favors Demspey.

There are many scenarios that could happen in this fight. Either fighter could win early or late. The odds are that Dempsey gets to him sooner or later. I would pick Dempsey to win 6 out of 10 times.

Come on, Alp. That punch from Rahman is now assuming mythical proportions. It only looked so spectacular due to the soft target it landed on.

You didn't mention the single punch McCall stopped him with. For those who haven't see it - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSDGFBOt99w

I don'ty believe McCall or Rahman are tremendous punchers, which in my book points to a somehwat questionable chin on Lewis' part.

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 19 Dec 2006, 16:00

Decagon wrote: Dempsey was only the White World Heavyweight Champion.

It's a fair point but you could also say that Ali was only champion of the capitalist nations.

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 19 Dec 2006, 16:04

Collins2000 wrote:
Ambling Alp wrote:Lewis-Dempsey is an interesting and difficult fight to call. It's not hard to imagine Dempsey jumping all over Lewis and stopping him. It's also not hard to imagine Lewis catching Dempsey on the way in and dropping him.
It has been interesting seeing commnets.
If Rahman and McCall could ko Lewis, then Dempsey. this is true. The big question is how likely that Dempsey would do it?
Dempsey got ko'd by Flynn so why Lewis could do it as well. Also true. Again, how likely is it?

What always interests me is when people talk about Lewis is that for some reason people confuse his strengths and weaknesses.
His detractors say he had a weak chin. He didn't. It was rock solid, but it was pretty good. He was only on the deck twice in his entire career. The punch that Rahman would have knocked almost anyone out (including Dempsey)

Lewis supporters often say he had a great jab. He didn't. Often he would just paw with it. It was never in the league of Ali's or Holmes'. An ultra aggressive fighter would get through it a lot. This what favors Demspey.

There are many scenarios that could happen in this fight. Either fighter could win early or late. The odds are that Dempsey gets to him sooner or later. I would pick Dempsey to win 6 out of 10 times.
Come on, Alp. That punch from Rahman is now assuming mythical proportions. It only looked so spectacular due to the soft target it landed on.

You didn't mention the single punch McCall stopped him with. For those who haven't see it - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSDGFBOt99w

I don'ty believe McCall or Rahman are tremendous punchers, which in my book points to a somehwat questionable chin on Lewis' part.

Rahman's punch would have KOed any living person. Or more generally: any healthy man can KO another man if he gets a free power shot at this chin or temple.

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 19 Dec 2006, 16:08

Decagon wrote:Lewis was knocked out by McCall five years before he became champion. Dempsey was knocked out two years before he became champion. Lewis was knocked out by Rahman when he was 36. Dempsey retired when he was 32. Further, Lewis was the true World Heavyweight Champion, while Dempsey was only the White World Heavyweight Champion.

Really, Zac? when exactly did Lummox become 'champion'? And why?

He was defending the WBC title when he lost to MCall.

As an aside, when did Holmes become 'champion'?