BoxRec

IrishRufusMurphy wrote: Walcott's improvisations and innovative moves, combined with Ezzard Charles' speed, would be a fair calculation of what Ali would be.

A 39 year old Walcott and a 34 year old Charles would be a fair calculation of what a 1966-67 Ali would be? That may be the most utterly ridiculous statement I've ever seen posted here...

...were you under the influence of something when you wrote that...?
...sober up and read it again...if you still believe it, start scheduling some doctor's appointments...

Sweet Scientist wrote:

IrishRufusMurphy wrote: Walcott's improvisations and innovative moves, combined with Ezzard Charles' speed, would be a fair calculation of what Ali would be.

A 39 year old Walcott and a 34 year old Charles would be a fair calculation of what a 1966-67 Ali would be? That may be the most utterly ridiculous statement I've ever seen posted here...

Let's say: a 1947 Walcott and a 1948 Charles who would grow by 2 inches and put on 20 pounds while maintining all of prime Walcott's slickness and prime Charles' speed would be a fair calculation of what Ali would be.

However, this is also a fighter who would wipe the floor with Marciano.

charles was 32 when he fought marciano sweetscientist. not 34.

pundit going by your logic..........if joe frazier can desiveley beat muhammad ali, then marciano defintley could and would.



muhammad ali was not a bigger version of walcott. ali lacked the technical boxing skills walcott had and had nowhere near the power and punching skills walcott had. he also lacked the upperbody movement walcott had.




ali-marciano would be a war. ali said so himself. small pressure swarmers like marciano, frazier, dempsey will always give ali fits.



all you need to do is watch ali-frazier I to realize the kinda trouble ali would be in vs marciano. frazier matches up better vs ali than marciano IMO, but marciano would still give ali fits. it would be a real barn burner.


marciano at his absolute peak is tough to beat

i think the september 1952 walcott would have knocked out any other version of walcott with the possible exception of the december 1947 walcott.

ali-marciano no matter which whey you put it would be a absolute war, and anyone who thinks otherwise isnt thinking objectivley. negatives and nitpicking competition can be picked out for both fighters, and it will all lead to a path of nowhere.

1966 ali vs 1952 marciano= absolute war!

Crease wrote:This topic has been done to death. And everytime a thread is made which looks at this topic, the majority of BOXREC members agree that Ali would win either by stopping Rocky (on cuts) OR win on points outright...

BUT everytime this topic is looked at, people will examine both boxers records.
Then Rocky will be compared to Frazier (and the Foreman fight might be mentioned for Ali's abillity to take puns).
Ali will be compared to JJ Walcott (and doubtless, Charles and Moore will be mentioned).

But I like to say just 2 things...

1. After the Ali-Frazier trilogy, Muhammad himself said "that was the closest to death I've ever been", and he marginally defeated Smokin Joe. But if Frazier could run that close a race with Ali, could Marciano KO indefinitely?

2. Look at Marciano-Charles II. If Charles could damage Marciano's face that much (albeit from an accidental elbow) what would Ali do to him...

These will always be mentioned when this topic is discussed.....

(PS. It really annoys me when the majority of people put Ali as their NO 1, then throw Frazier down at 6-7-8... (I even remember someone not having Frazier in their top 10).

But I think that when people are ranking these fighters, they shouldn't put a big gap between these 2 boxers...(Remember the trilogy ended almost levelled out)... Ali wasn't signifcantly better than Frazier, merely marginally.

What do you guys think about think about my opinions...

***I would ask you for a prediction for the Marciano-Ali but I'm sure you're sick of it!***

Please remember that Ali was past his best everytime he fought Frazier.

Frazier was still in his pomp in 1971 but for the subsequent battles, Joe himself was past his best too.

Those fights are not an accurate representation of both men.

Muhammad & Joe should by rights have met in 1968/9, then you could say for sure who was the best.

Crease wrote: ↑20 Dec 2006, 11:28 This topic has been done to death. And everytime a thread is made which looks at this topic, the majority of BOXREC members agree that Ali would win either by stopping Rocky (on cuts) OR win on points outright...

BUT everytime this topic is looked at, people will examine both boxers records.
Then Rocky will be compared to Frazier (and the Foreman fight might be mentioned for Ali's abillity to take puns).
Ali will be compared to JJ Walcott (and doubtless, Charles and Moore will be mentioned).

But I like to say just 2 things...

1. After the Ali-Frazier trilogy, Muhammad himself said "that was the closest to death I've ever been", and he marginally defeated Smokin Joe. But if Frazier could run that close a race with Ali, could Marciano KO indefinitely?

2. Look at Marciano-Charles II. If Charles could damage Marciano's face that much (albeit from an accidental elbow) what would Ali do to him...

These will always be mentioned when this topic is discussed.....

(PS. It really annoys me when the majority of people put Ali as their NO 1, then throw Frazier down at 6-7-8... (I even remember someone not having Frazier in their top 10).

But I think that when people are ranking these fighters, they shouldn't put a big gap between these 2 boxers...(Remember the trilogy ended almost levelled out)... Ali wasn't signifcantly better than Frazier, merely marginally.

What do you guys think about think about my opinions...

***I would ask you for a prediction for the Marciano-Ali but I'm sure you're sick of it!***

Alí was a wonderful man, but I believe that his boxing skills are overrated: his fashion to lean back like he did, is something any responsible trainer will tell you not to do (I was told so, in first place, far from being in the Alí's era) , because your opponent might just take a little step forward and catch you flush with a hook: Frazier went to show it.

I've watched an interview to one of Alí's former trainers saying that Alí's technique was far from perfect, but he was so fast that nobody would dare to tell him. He relied on his lightning-fast speed more than to anything else, and that seemed to be enough, until he reached a certain age... Now the fight with Holmes was widely avoidable, but never mind...

Alí was a bigger guy than Marciano, but if Frazier has given Alí so much trouble, then Marciano's Suzie-Q would put Alí in serious trouble... Now Alí, as fast as he could be, was far from being a power puncher, and Marciano's defence was solid-enough to make him very difficult to hit by Alí.

No heavyweight world champion in history was smaller than Marciano... so I'd certainly pick Marciano as p4p better than Alí: a fight between the two wouldn't even be fair: they technically should fight to a catchweight, very punishing for Rocky, having Alí a massive size advantage over him...
So, forget that, if I was Marciano's handler, I would approve a possible fight with Alí... no way.

If someone would be reckless-enough to arrange a Marciano vs Alí fight, Alí could outbox Marciano in the later rounds, exploiting the size advantage, but Marciano would be very hard to hit, as I've written before, and if he caught Alí a little off-balance, he could end the fight even by roughly round 7 or so... beware of Rocky...

Collins2000 wrote: ↑22 Dec 2006, 15:36

Where did Collins2000 go, I remember him being on here a lot.

ali defeats rocky easy , because unlike frazier
rocky could not keep up that crazy swarming
pace round after round, so in the beginning
a fresh ali would be out of reach and a later
ali could outsmart without himself being
outworked all the time.

regarding frazier not being top five. i am guilty
of that, i have him close to ten.

ali
louis
johnson
holmes
holyfield
tyson
foreman
dempsey
frazier

man wrote: ↑28 Dec 2018, 09:36 ali defeats rocky easy , because unlike frazier
rocky could not keep up that crazy swarming
pace round after round, so in the beginning
a fresh ali would be out of reach and a later
ali could outsmart without himself being
outworked all the time.

regarding frazier not being top five. i am guilty
of that, i have him close to ten.

ali
louis
johnson
holmes
holyfield
tyson
foreman
dempsey
frazier

No Sam Langford and Lennox Lewis..? I'd probably rate both of them top-5... Lewis was more complete than Alí... a serious contender for the first position: now probably Alí was right when he said he was the greatest heavyweight of all times, but Lennox Lewis wasn't still around back then... Lewis would give Alí a hard time, if not a lesson.

I'd rate Marciano above Frazier anyway.

Controversial wrote: ↑28 Dec 2018, 05:04

Collins2000 wrote: ↑22 Dec 2006, 15:36

Where did Collins2000 go, I remember him being on here a lot.

I answered my own question, he turned into Giancarlo although Giancarlo has disappeared since as well.

Giancarlo wrote: ↑22 Apr 2012, 22:49 I decided to retire the "Collins2000" moniker

Jacopodb wrote: ↑28 Dec 2018, 11:55

man wrote: ↑28 Dec 2018, 09:36 ali defeats rocky easy , because unlike frazier
rocky could not keep up that crazy swarming
pace round after round, so in the beginning
a fresh ali would be out of reach and a later
ali could outsmart without himself being
outworked all the time.

regarding frazier not being top five. i am guilty
of that, i have him close to ten.

ali
louis
johnson
holmes
holyfield
tyson
foreman
dempsey
frazier

No Sam Langford and Lennox Lewis..? I'd probably rate both of them top-5... Lewis was more complete than Alí... a serious contender for the first position: now probably Alí was right when he said he was the greatest heavyweight of all times, but Lennox Lewis wasn't still around back then... Lewis would give Alí a hard time, if not a lesson.

I'd rate Marciano above Frazier anyway.f

Langford may be the greatest fighter who ever lived but there is no way he's a top 5 heavyweight. If you don't have Ali and Louis 1-2 in either order you're doing it wrong.

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑28 Dec 2018, 22:55

Jacopodb wrote: ↑28 Dec 2018, 11:55

man wrote: ↑28 Dec 2018, 09:36 ali defeats rocky easy , because unlike frazier
rocky could not keep up that crazy swarming
pace round after round, so in the beginning
a fresh ali would be out of reach and a later
ali could outsmart without himself being
outworked all the time.

regarding frazier not being top five. i am guilty
of that, i have him close to ten.

ali
louis
johnson
holmes
holyfield
tyson
foreman
dempsey
frazier

No Sam Langford and Lennox Lewis..? I'd probably rate both of them top-5... Lewis was more complete than Alí... a serious contender for the first position: now probably Alí was right when he said he was the greatest heavyweight of all times, but Lennox Lewis wasn't still around back then... Lewis would give Alí a hard time, if not a lesson.

I'd rate Marciano above Frazier anyway.f

Langford may be the greatest fighter who ever lived but there is no way he's a top 5 heavyweight. If you don't have Ali and Louis 1-2 in either order you're doing it wrong.

Lennox at 4, now 3, will ya gimme 2..? Going... going... gone!
Lewis' size and terrific 1-2 would be forces everyone should reckon with, probably beating Holmes at his own game...

Langford... not that I've watched plenty footage of him, but he would be a dangerous outsider: fast, powerful, dirty-enough... very hard to handle, specially if you could let him have a glimpse of nowadays' ring-smarts too.
Fatuous, but unleashes my fantasy.