BoxRec

silkov wrote:

DoubleM wrote:

Halfamill wrote:I think Robinson would of been a pretty good Light Heavyweight.

Really? Based on what? Okay, he did good against Maxim - until he lost. As I said already, Maxim was affected by the heat as well and wasn't fighting very hard. It's clear as day when you compare footage of Maxim.

Imagine Robinson putting all that weight on... He wouldn't necessarily be 175, but if he was, or around 170, his speed and agility would suffer greatly. If he stayed at around 162 or 163, he'd be a very small light heavyweight and would be bulled around by his bigger opponents. Ray might have been able to beat Doc Williams or Billy Smith, but he'd be decimated by Moore or Charles. Bivins and Johnson would probably have whipped him.

There is nothing to suggest Robinson would have been a good light heavyweight. In a regular match (without the withering heat) I'd pick Maxim to take him on points.

Damn... A lot of you are getting carried away with the whole Sugar Ray thing. A legend, sure, but not an unbeatable one. Remember that he was at his peak at welterweight...

And youre getting carried away with Archie Moore, ....As for Robinson having done nothing to suggest that he'd have been a good light-heavy how about him schooling Maxim for about 12 rounds??... have you even seen the fight?? he would have won had it not been for the freakish heat that night. As I already said Moores and Robinsons performances against Maxim were very close, if anything Maxim gave Moore more trouble than he gave Ray!... watch the fights!... The reasons Ray never tried moving up again was 1. he didnt have any trouble making 160 right to the end of his career and 2. the Middleweight title was a more lucrative championship and Ray figured he would get better and bigger money matches at 160 than at 175. ....and as for tasks, how about you telling me when Moore blasted out somebody of comparable ability to a peak Ray Robinson... I'd really like to hear this. Also you still havent answered my question about exactly how many fights you've actually seen of Moore and Robinson!?? 8)
I've noticed your technique of avoiding replying to certain questions (such as have you seen these guys fight??) and I'm afraid it shows major flaws in your argument...

Right, now you are just being thick.

As for Robinson having done nothing to suggest that he'd have been a good light-heavy how about him schooling Maxim for about 12 rounds??... have you even seen the fight?? he would have won had it not been for the freakish heat that night.

Once again I'll state that Maxim was affected by the heat too, and was not fighting very hard. Look at the fight for proof. Had they fought under more managable conditions, the fight would have been a lot closer... Robinson was trying his best which is why he tired late, but Maxim was conserving energy.

The reasons Ray never tried moving up again was 1. he didnt have any trouble making 160 right to the end of his career and 2. the Middleweight title was a more lucrative championship and Ray figured he would get better and bigger money matches at 160 than at 175.

What's this got to do with anything?

and as for tasks, how about you telling me when Moore blasted out somebody of comparable ability to a peak Ray Robinson... I'd really like to hear this.

Moore took out plenty of guys as good as Robinson (maybe not in a pound-for-pound sense, but we are talking about direct head-to-head matchups). He didn't blast them out, but he knocked them out nonetheless - Harold Johnson, Jimmy Bivins, Holman Williams, Lloyd Marshall, Jack Chase, Cocoa Kid, blah blah.

Also you still havent answered my question about exactly how many fights you've actually seen of Moore and Robinson!?? 8)
I've noticed your technique of avoiding replying to certain questions (such as have you seen these guys fight??) and I'm afraid it shows major flaws in your argument...

Don't talk bollocks. You are the one avoiding my questions - I'll ask again:

1/ Name a fighter or some fighters who Robinson beat that were as good as, or even close to, Archie Moore. Not in a pound-for-pound sense, but actual, direct abilities (since we are matching them up, not comparing them relative to their weights).

2/ Name some fighters who troubled Moore because of speed.

Now... I am not avoiding your question. I replied with "I've seen a lot" - which I have. I'd guess at about 22 Robinson fights and 10 of Moore.

If I may say so....it is good that you have only seen about 10 of Moore's fights...it means that you can look forward to hours upon hours of great boxing history. However I find it can be hard to find these gems.

DoubleM wrote:

Halfamill wrote:I think Robinson would of been a pretty good Light Heavyweight.

Really? Based on what? Okay, he did good against Maxim - until he lost. As I said already, Maxim was affected by the heat as well and wasn't fighting very hard. It's clear as day when you compare footage of Maxim.

Imagine Robinson putting all that weight on... He wouldn't necessarily be 175, but if he was, or around 170, his speed and agility would suffer greatly. If he stayed at around 162 or 163, he'd be a very small light heavyweight and would be bulled around by his bigger opponents. Ray might have been able to beat Doc Williams or Billy Smith, but he'd be decimated by Moore or Charles. Bivins and Johnson would probably have whipped him.

There is nothing to suggest Robinson would have been a good light heavyweight. In a regular match (without the withering heat) I'd pick Maxim to take him on points.

Damn... A lot of you are getting carried away with the whole Sugar Ray thing. A legend, sure, but not an unbeatable one. Remember that he was at his peak at welterweight...

Well think about it. If Robinson stayed at 147 all his life we would of been having an argument of good he would of been at 160lbs and you would of probably have said that he was too small for Graziano and Olson. He showed he was pretty good against 175 competition and he would of probably beaten most fighters in that division including Moore. But I don't think he just beats Moore it would be more of a trilogy with Robinson winning 3 fights and Moore winning 2 fights.

Halfamill wrote:

DoubleM wrote:

Halfamill wrote:I think Robinson would of been a pretty good Light Heavyweight.

Really? Based on what? Okay, he did good against Maxim - until he lost. As I said already, Maxim was affected by the heat as well and wasn't fighting very hard. It's clear as day when you compare footage of Maxim.

Imagine Robinson putting all that weight on... He wouldn't necessarily be 175, but if he was, or around 170, his speed and agility would suffer greatly. If he stayed at around 162 or 163, he'd be a very small light heavyweight and would be bulled around by his bigger opponents. Ray might have been able to beat Doc Williams or Billy Smith, but he'd be decimated by Moore or Charles. Bivins and Johnson would probably have whipped him.

There is nothing to suggest Robinson would have been a good light heavyweight. In a regular match (without the withering heat) I'd pick Maxim to take him on points.

Damn... A lot of you are getting carried away with the whole Sugar Ray thing. A legend, sure, but not an unbeatable one. Remember that he was at his peak at welterweight...

Well think about it. If Robinson stayed at 147 all his life we would of been having an argument of good he would of been at 160lbs and you would of probably have said that he was too small for Graziano and Olson. He showed he was pretty good against 175 competition and he would of probably beaten most fighters in that division including Moore. But I don't think he just beats Moore it would be more of a trilogy with Robinson winning 3 fights and Moore winning 2 fights.

Jesus fcuking Christ. Robinson now beats Moore 60% of the time all because he lost to Joey Maxim?! Get your head outta the man's arse. Yet again I'll say that Maxim wasn't fighting to his best abilities in that fight!

BoxBuzz wrote:If I may say so....it is good that you have only seen about 10 of Moore's fights...it means that you can look forward to hours upon hours of great boxing history. However I find it can be hard to find these gems.

Yea... I've been having trouble finding the fights.

DoubleM wrote:

Halfamill wrote:

DoubleM wrote: Really? Based on what? Okay, he did good against Maxim - until he lost. As I said already, Maxim was affected by the heat as well and wasn't fighting very hard. It's clear as day when you compare footage of Maxim.

Imagine Robinson putting all that weight on... He wouldn't necessarily be 175, but if he was, or around 170, his speed and agility would suffer greatly. If he stayed at around 162 or 163, he'd be a very small light heavyweight and would be bulled around by his bigger opponents. Ray might have been able to beat Doc Williams or Billy Smith, but he'd be decimated by Moore or Charles. Bivins and Johnson would probably have whipped him.

There is nothing to suggest Robinson would have been a good light heavyweight. In a regular match (without the withering heat) I'd pick Maxim to take him on points.

Damn... A lot of you are getting carried away with the whole Sugar Ray thing. A legend, sure, but not an unbeatable one. Remember that he was at his peak at welterweight...

Well think about it. If Robinson stayed at 147 all his life we would of been having an argument of good he would of been at 160lbs and you would of probably have said that he was too small for Graziano and Olson. He showed he was pretty good against 175 competition and he would of probably beaten most fighters in that division including Moore. But I don't think he just beats Moore it would be more of a trilogy with Robinson winning 3 fights and Moore winning 2 fights.

Jesus fcuking Christ. Robinson now beats Moore 60% of the time all because he lost to Joey Maxim?! Get your head outta the man's arse. Yet again I'll say that Maxim wasn't fighting to his best abilities in that fight!

Calm down buddy no need to get all anal about this. Anyways if Robinson can't beat Moore at Light Heavyweight then what other Middleweight can?

I would say none as Archie can be considered one of the top 30 HW's of all time as well.

Halfamill wrote:

DoubleM wrote:

Halfamill wrote: Well think about it. If Robinson stayed at 147 all his life we would of been having an argument of good he would of been at 160lbs and you would of probably have said that he was too small for Graziano and Olson. He showed he was pretty good against 175 competition and he would of probably beaten most fighters in that division including Moore. But I don't think he just beats Moore it would be more of a trilogy with Robinson winning 3 fights and Moore winning 2 fights.

Jesus fcuking Christ. Robinson now beats Moore 60% of the time all because he lost to Joey Maxim?! Get your head outta the man's arse. Yet again I'll say that Maxim wasn't fighting to his best abilities in that fight!

Calm down buddy no need to get all anal about this. Anyways if Robinson can't beat Moore at Light Heavyweight then what other Middleweight can?

No middleweight would beat a peak Moore.

Decagon wrote:Middleweights who could beat Archie Moore at light heavyweight:

• Charley Burley
• Ezzard Charles
• Harry Greb
• Billy Conn

Moore was overmatched against Burley when they actually fought, and was not the fighter he would become.

A middleweight Ezzard Charles would get sparked; again, he wasn't the fighter he would become after his stint in the army.

Harry Greb would have quite a shock when he feels the force of Moore's punches; a lot more powerful than Tunney, Loughran or Gibbons.

Billy Conn was great, but just didn't have the experience to last with Moore, who, by his prime, had seen every move that ever existed in boxing.

DoubleM wrote:

silkov wrote:

DoubleM wrote: Really? Based on what? Okay, he did good against Maxim - until he lost. As I said already, Maxim was affected by the heat as well and wasn't fighting very hard. It's clear as day when you compare footage of Maxim.

Imagine Robinson putting all that weight on... He wouldn't necessarily be 175, but if he was, or around 170, his speed and agility would suffer greatly. If he stayed at around 162 or 163, he'd be a very small light heavyweight and would be bulled around by his bigger opponents. Ray might have been able to beat Doc Williams or Billy Smith, but he'd be decimated by Moore or Charles. Bivins and Johnson would probably have whipped him.

There is nothing to suggest Robinson would have been a good light heavyweight. In a regular match (without the withering heat) I'd pick Maxim to take him on points.

Damn... A lot of you are getting carried away with the whole Sugar Ray thing. A legend, sure, but not an unbeatable one. Remember that he was at his peak at welterweight...

And youre getting carried away with Archie Moore, ....As for Robinson having done nothing to suggest that he'd have been a good light-heavy how about him schooling Maxim for about 12 rounds??... have you even seen the fight?? he would have won had it not been for the freakish heat that night. As I already said Moores and Robinsons performances against Maxim were very close, if anything Maxim gave Moore more trouble than he gave Ray!... watch the fights!... The reasons Ray never tried moving up again was 1. he didnt have any trouble making 160 right to the end of his career and 2. the Middleweight title was a more lucrative championship and Ray figured he would get better and bigger money matches at 160 than at 175. ....and as for tasks, how about you telling me when Moore blasted out somebody of comparable ability to a peak Ray Robinson... I'd really like to hear this. Also you still havent answered my question about exactly how many fights you've actually seen of Moore and Robinson!?? 8)
I've noticed your technique of avoiding replying to certain questions (such as have you seen these guys fight??) and I'm afraid it shows major flaws in your argument...

Right, now you are just being thick.

As for Robinson having done nothing to suggest that he'd have been a good light-heavy how about him schooling Maxim for about 12 rounds??... have you even seen the fight?? he would have won had it not been for the freakish heat that night.

Once again I'll state that Maxim was affected by the heat too, and was not fighting very hard. Look at the fight for proof. Had they fought under more managable conditions, the fight would have been a lot closer... Robinson was trying his best which is why he tired late, but Maxim was conserving energy.

The reasons Ray never tried moving up again was 1. he didnt have any trouble making 160 right to the end of his career and 2. the Middleweight title was a more lucrative championship and Ray figured he would get better and bigger money matches at 160 than at 175.

What's this got to do with anything?

and as for tasks, how about you telling me when Moore blasted out somebody of comparable ability to a peak Ray Robinson... I'd really like to hear this.

Moore took out plenty of guys as good as Robinson (maybe not in a pound-for-pound sense, but we are talking about direct head-to-head matchups). He didn't blast them out, but he knocked them out nonetheless - Harold Johnson, Jimmy Bivins, Holman Williams, Lloyd Marshall, Jack Chase, Cocoa Kid, blah blah.

Also you still havent answered my question about exactly how many fights you've actually seen of Moore and Robinson!?? 8)
I've noticed your technique of avoiding replying to certain questions (such as have you seen these guys fight??) and I'm afraid it shows major flaws in your argument...

Don't talk bollocks. You are the one avoiding my questions - I'll ask again:

1/ Name a fighter or some fighters who Robinson beat that were as good as, or even close to, Archie Moore. Not in a pound-for-pound sense, but actual, direct abilities (since we are matching them up, not comparing them relative to their weights).

2/ Name some fighters who troubled Moore because of speed.

Now... I am not avoiding your question. I replied with "I've seen a lot" - which I have. I'd guess at about 22 Robinson fights and 10 of Moore.

Oh dear, still avoiding the question I see... I'm getting rather tired of this now as your're coming across as an anal twit, I've better things to do with my time than split hairs with someone who doesnt know what theyre talking about.... you could surprise me though by telling me where in those 10 fights you claim to have seen of Moore he beats someone of Robinsons calibre in 4 rounds??.... in fact did Moore ever beat anyone as good as Ray??..... the answer is no!... 8)

BoxBuzz wrote:silkov......are you going on the record to say Robinson would likely beat Moore? I know you watch fights so unlike the person you are pointing a finger at I know that's not your deficit. However with as many fights as I know you watch for you to come out claiming SRR as the likely winner.....I would suggest rewatching these fights....but wear thicker glasses.


oh.....and I dont see him getting carried away regarding Moore...... he was a pretty good fighter as I recall.

No need to get personal mate, and thanks for your concern but my eyes are fine, if you bothered to read through the threads closely enough (perhaps change your glasses!) you'll see that this storm in a teacup is all over the fact that I stated that Robinson would have given Moore a decent and competitive fight rather than being blown out in about 4 rounds as this certain person insists, there you have it, I never said that Robinson would beat Moore but that he'd give him a comptitive fight and yes I wouldnt rule him out completely in springing an upset.... anyone who doesnt give Ray any chance against Moore is not loking closely enough... thats my view and I'm sticking to it and as I've probably seen more of Robinson and Moore than most I think I know what I'm talking about... anyone who insists Moore would ko Sugar early just doesnt know what theyre talking about and to compare Moore vs Robinson with Duran vs Hearns is obvious evidence of this...

you know me I'm a Moore die hard and I agree Moore would win but it's not a walk in the park by any means. It would be a bad day for any fighter of any weight that went into the ring taking Robinson lightly. Like Moore he possessed incredible judgement and would be lightening fast at taking advantage of even a momentary opportunity....

Oh and I'm not one who thinks Hearns could repeat his little miracle with Duran sometimes things just happen that can not be predicted. Another fight would have been far more competitive IMHO.

Silkov The ribbing was in jest...as always....

BoxBuzz wrote:you know me I'm a Moore die hard and I agree Moore would win but it's not a walk in the park by any means. It would be a bad day for any fighter of any weight that went into the ring taking Robinson lightly. Like Moore he possessed incredible judgement and would be lightening fast at taking advantage of even a momentary opportunity....

Oh and I'm not one who thinks Hearns could repeat his little miracle with Duran sometimes things just happen that can not be predicted. Another fight would have been far more competitive IMHO.

Silkov The ribbing was in jest...as always....

Yeah, sorry if it seemed I was overzealous in my reposit, ...8) seems we agree really on this fight, (more or less) I certainly dont downplay what a great fighter Moore was but stylewise I just see Robinson being able to be competitive with Moore... Archies strength would most likely get him the decision but there would be no early blow out, in fact I dont see Moore stopping Robinson... one of my arguments is that if you watch Moore vs Maxim and Robinson vs Maxim its hard to say that Moore really had an easier time against Maxim than Ray did?... I know Ray lost eventually but most people see this as a 'freak' loss caused by the heat... either way Rays performance seems to me to indicate that he would have been perfectly competitive at the higher division and I think he stayed at 160 because 1. he had no trouble making the weight and 2. there were better/more lucrative fights at 160.
Ray would probably have fought Moore but they could never agree terms... the fight almost came off in the late 50s....

>>>No middleweight would beat a peak Moore.<<<

I guarantee that a peak Harry Greb could beat Archie Moore! I would about guarantee that a peak Mickey Walker would have a great chance of beating Moore also…I would guarantee that Teddy Yarosz could beat Moore as well…wait a minute…Teddy Yarosz did beat Moore. Fact is Moore lost to lesser middleweight, a lot lesser, than Robinson.

As I stated in the beginning…Moore should win in a bout against Robinson, but it sure as hell would not be any KO 4, or a demolishing of Robinson. All-in-all the middleweights that Moore lost to were: Billy Adams, Bandit Romero, Teddy Yarosz, Shorty Hogue, Jack Chase, Aaron Wade, Eddie Booker, Holman Williams and Charley Burley…and you were saying that no middleweight would beat a peak Moore…Fact is…a few middleweight DID beat a prime Moore.



>>>>Harry Greb would have quite a shock when he feels the force of Moore's punches; a lot more powerful than Tunney, Loughran or Gibbons.<<<<

That’s pretty funny!!! If Moore did in fact hit harder than Tunney, or Gibbons then it wasn’t by a lot. Moore was certainly a heavy-hitter, but his knockouts were due more to accurate, precision punching more so than just brute power. Now the heavy-hitters that Greb faced are like a who’s who of the heavy-hitters of the teens and 20s and there is nothing that Moore, or any other fighter could do to “shock” Greb. Greb fought and beat the best of three division while facing several opponents who were very likely much harder hitters than Moore. As I said, Moore was certainly a great puncher, but it was his precision and ability to land punches that were right on the button which is what made Moore such a great KO specialist!

barry wrote:>>>No middleweight would beat a peak Moore.<<<

I guarantee that a peak Harry Greb could beat Archie Moore! I would about guarantee that a peak Mickey Walker would have a great chance of beating Moore also…I would guarantee that Teddy Yarosz could beat Moore as well…wait a minute…Teddy Yarosz did beat Moore. Fact is Moore lost to lesser middleweight, a lot lesser, than Robinson.

As I stated in the beginning…Moore should win in a bout against Robinson, but it sure as hell would not be any KO 4, or a demolishing of Robinson. All-in-all the middleweights that Moore lost to were: Billy Adams, Bandit Romero, Teddy Yarosz, Shorty Hogue, Jack Chase, Aaron Wade, Eddie Booker, Holman Williams and Charley Burley…and you were saying that no middleweight would beat a peak Moore…Fact is…a few middleweight DID beat a prime Moore.



>>>>Harry Greb would have quite a shock when he feels the force of Moore's punches; a lot more powerful than Tunney, Loughran or Gibbons.<<<<

That’s pretty funny!!! If Moore did in fact hit harder than Tunney, or Gibbons then it wasn’t by a lot. Moore was certainly a heavy-hitter, but his knockouts were due more to accurate, precision punching more so than just brute power. Now the heavy-hitters that Greb faced are like a who’s who of the heavy-hitters of the teens and 20s and there is nothing that Moore, or any other fighter could do to “shock” Greb. Greb fought and beat the best of three division while facing several opponents who were very likely much harder hitters than Moore. As I said, Moore was certainly a great puncher, but it was his precision and ability to land punches that were right on the button which is what made Moore such a great KO specialist!

Exactly, I didnt even dignify that comment about 'no middleweight would have beaten Moore' with a reply... obviously someone has forgotten to look at Moores record and see all the times he was beaten at 160, and perhaps they havent heard of people like Greb, Ketchel, Monzon, Hagler, etc all of whom would have been a safe bet to beat Moore at Middle and even perhaps at 175... I certainly could see Greb beating Moore at 175...
Some people just cant listen to reason and experience... 8)
also I agree about Moores power... he was more a precision puncher with good power rather than a fighter with monsterous power...

I have to add one more item.... his schedule was pretty packed and he fought when he was sick and distraught....it was a JOB for him....if he had the luxury of "calling in sick" or postponing some matches his record would be even better...not that he needs defense of his record in any way shape or form.

the "guarantee" barry gives is about as good as the guarantee you'll get with the next mattress you buy....sounds good but what does it really mean? I think a Moore Greb fight is not all that predictable...nore would Charles -Moore 4 or Patterson-Moore 2. But when you fight as often as Greb or Moore your going to go in to work on a bad day now and then.

Yeah yeah Moore is a personal hero of mine...but it's because of his quality work and commitment to excellence along with great skills and integrity that I like the guy so much. He stands a chance of losing to Hagler, Monzon, Greb, and some other Middles but I don't think he would. I do not think it would be a "safe bet" at all. And say what you will about his ability to make a punch count and turn a good fight into a KO...he really could end a fight at any time....he did have some remarkable punching power and carried that power from the first round to the last round. He's a pretty complete fighter. Add intelligence and natural talent and he can be in the running in just about any division between middle to heavy.

He's one of those fighters like Greb, Armstrong, Walker, Charles, Robinson and Ali that have truly defined "state of the art" boxing.

He did not however go 49 and 0. And of course lost to a guy who did manage that trick. But accrued nearly 4 times as many wins and over 130 KO's in his career. Nice stats actually. He lost about 10% of the time and many of those have stories to go with them that could put things into an interesting perspective.