BoxRec

I'm sorry but your wrong, even a totally washed up Ali was able to ggive Trevor Berbick a competitve fight at the end of his career, people are always talking about the Berbick fight like it was a huge disgrace but Berbick was actually a very good fighter and even when he had little left Ali could still compete with him... the Wepner thing is just silly, Chuck was a hardened pro by the time he fought Ali, big difference to going straight in with Ali in your first pro fight... as I said before fighting amutuer and pro is two different worlds and I doubt Stevenstop would cross it successfully in one fight against a man like Ali....

I quote Trevor Berbick on this particular fight:

'It was a great motivation to fight him. But then there was a sympathy. I'm saying, how can I really, really hurt him? How can I try to hurt him seriously? I was hoping that I'd hit him and he'd just go down and out instead of banging at him hard. I knew I had to do what I had to do. So I stayed with the body because I figured it would do less damage. And I scored alot to the body. Even when he was on me I was punching tremendously. That's what won me the fight.'

Berbick wasn't going full out on Ali, he was taking it easy on him. So I don't exactly agree with what you're saying, at least when it comes to this particular fight. Neither was Larry Holmes, he wasn't going all out on Ali either, yet Ali was getting the crap kicked out of him. Sure Ali could take punishment against the top guys---but he couldn't beat nobody with anything at all going for them.

As for Wepner, while he may have been established as a fighter, this man was still working as a liquor salesman. He wasn't training full time for fights, he was fighting club fighters for the most part. Read any interview with Wepner and he himself will say that the Ali fight was the first time where he ever trained full time for a fight in his life.

IrishRufusMurphy wrote:

I'm sorry but your wrong, even a totally washed up Ali was able to ggive Trevor Berbick a competitve fight at the end of his career, people are always talking about the Berbick fight like it was a huge disgrace but Berbick was actually a very good fighter and even when he had little left Ali could still compete with him... the Wepner thing is just silly, Chuck was a hardened pro by the time he fought Ali, big difference to going straight in with Ali in your first pro fight... as I said before fighting amutuer and pro is two different worlds and I doubt Stevenstop would cross it successfully in one fight against a man like Ali....

I quote Trevor Berbick on this particular fight:

'It was a great motivation to fight him. But then there was a sympathy. I'm saying, how can I really, really hurt him? How can I try to hurt him seriously? I was hoping that I'd hit him and he'd just go down and out instead of banging at him hard. I knew I had to do what I had to do. So I stayed with the body because I figured it would do less damage. And I scored alot to the body. Even when he was on me I was punching tremendously. That's what won me the fight.'

Berbick wasn't going full out on Ali, he was taking it easy on him. So I don't exactly agree with what you're saying, at least when it comes to this particular fight. Neither was Larry Holmes, he wasn't going all out on Ali either, yet Ali was getting the crap kicked out of him. Sure Ali could take punishment against the top guys---but he couldn't beat nobody with anything at all going for them.

As for Wepner, while he may have been established as a fighter, this man was still working as a liquor salesman. He wasn't training full time for fights, he was fighting club fighters for the most part. Read any interview with Wepner and he himself will say that the Ali fight was the first time where he ever trained full time for a fight in his life.

Taking it easy on him?... have you seen the fight??... he certainly didnt take it easy on Ali, watch the fight, they are both going for it in it. As for Wepner, a lot of pro fighters have day jobs, even more so in the 60s and 70s when the pay was lower... Wepner still had a hell of a lot of experience as a pro when he fought Ali, he was a 10 year veteran who had gone 10 rounds with sonny Liston, ...you just cannot compare his situation with Stevenston fighting Ali in his first pro fight....

All I am saying is that, it is possible to go 15 rounds if you've trained for that. Not that Stevenson could have went the full route, but he sure as hell would have had the stamina and endurance to have done so.

Had Stevenson had some real quality sparring in preparation for Ali, and got to train for a good amount of time, he would have done well; would have at least gone 10 rounds. WHy do I say this?

If football player Lyle Alzado could go 8 rounds with Ali in their exhibition in 1979, then certainly a 2x Olympic Gold Medalist could go 10 with the Ali of 78' if not the distance and pull an upset---I know the amateurs and the pros are two different worlds, but Stevenson fought a helluv lot more rounds than Ali done in his pro career.

May not have been level opposition to make comparisons, but nonetheless, Stevenson being in the business as long as he was, and if given a years time to train for Ali with alot of real quality sparring would have went the distance, if not the win, over Ali.

Even Ali himself said he felt Stevenson could pull off a 15 round draw with him.

IrishRufusMurphy wrote:All I am saying is that, it is possible to go 15 rounds if you've trained for that. Not that Stevenson could have went the full route, but he sure as hell would have had the stamina and endurance to have done so.

Had Stevenson had some real quality sparring in preparation for Ali, and got to train for a good amount of time, he would have done well; would have at least gone 10 rounds. WHy do I say this?

If football player Lyle Alzado could go 8 rounds with Ali in their exhibition in 1979, then certainly a 2x Olympic Gold Medalist could go 10 with the Ali of 78' if not the distance and pull an upset---I know the amateurs and the pros are two different worlds, but Stevenson fought a helluv lot more rounds than Ali done in his pro career.

May not have been level opposition to make comparisons, but nonetheless, Stevenson being in the business as long as he was, and if given a years time to train for Ali with alot of real quality sparring would have went the distance, if not the win, over Ali.

Even Ali himself said he felt Stevenson could pull off a 15 round draw with him.

You give too much credence to exhibitions. You do the same with the choreographed Ali - Marciano affair, referring to it as 'sparring' in several posts. I know you are a big fan of Marciano and have always got something negative to post about Ali, so I guess making that acted affair out to be some sort of meaningful yardstick by which to judge the fighters in their prime is just too tempting for you ignore.

Ali, like many boxers, said lots of things, both good and bad about other fighters, that always quite ring true. He seemed interested in a bout with stevenson at one point and maybe he was trying to build up interest.

Collins, I don't hate Muhammad Ali. I just think alot of aspects of him are exaggerated and his ability was over-rated. There's more myth and fantasy in my opinion of him than any other fighter in history. Plus I get sick and tired of seeing non-stop Ali threads and tv shows on him, when there are literally hundreds and thousands of other fighters that can be talked about. No there's no denying his success as a fighter and what he done, but there is nobody more talked about and discussed than him and it gets rather dull and boring.

Exhibitions in some people's minds don't mean anything, but at one time it was generally considered that if a champion 'lost' in an exhibition that they lost their championship or, better yet, their reputation. The Alzado exhibition just showed how far gone Ali was, and though he beat Alzado, it was evident that Ali shouldn't been fighting any more, and shouldn't ever come back.

As far as the Ali-Berbick fight, I can only go by what Berbick said and by the fact that Ali was the heaviest of his career, walked rather than ran in roadwork, and he admitted himself that he knew he was too old and wasn't going to win against Berbick. I'll gladly pull out the quotes if anyone disagrees with me.

IrishRufusMurphy wrote:Collins, I don't hate Muhammad Ali. I just think alot of aspects of him are exaggerated and his ability was over-rated. There's more myth and fantasy in my opinion of him than any other fighter in history. Plus I get sick and tired of seeing non-stop Ali threads and tv shows on him, when there are literally hundreds and thousands of other fighters that can be talked about. No there's no denying his success as a fighter and what he done, but there is nobody more talked about and discussed than him and it gets rather dull and boring.

Exhibitions in some people's minds don't mean anything, but at one time it was generally considered that if a champion 'lost' in an exhibition that they lost their championship or, better yet, their reputation. The Alzado exhibition just showed how far gone Ali was, and though he beat Alzado, it was evident that Ali shouldn't been fighting any more, and shouldn't ever come back.

As far as the Ali-Berbick fight, I can only go by what Berbick said and by the fact that Ali was the heaviest of his career, walked rather than ran in roadwork, and he admitted himself that he knew he was too old and wasn't going to win against Berbick. I'll gladly pull out the quotes if anyone disagrees with me.

Can you give an example of a champion losing his title in an exhibition?

If not, why not take a rest from making these ridiculous posts?

Irish- Don't you realize that the Alzado exhibition wasn't a real fight? Ali could knockout Alzado any time he wanted to.
I think that what annoys Collins and others is that your criticisms of Ali are often based on silly things like the Marciano-Ali computer "fight", the Alzado exhibition, fantasy fights with Stevenson etc. These things mean nothing. If you are going to criticize Ali, talk about his real fights.

As for Ali being on TV a lot, yes it's true that he is on way more than anyone else. This is partly becasue he came along at the right time (when TV was becoming popular, and most of his fights are available) and becasue most people realize that he was the best. Maybe he is on too much in comparison to others, but that doesn't mean he wasn't the best.

The other thing trap that you have fallen into (which many other people have as well) is that since you don't like someone (in this case Ali) you aren't being judging him objectively. It's natural to rate guys that like higher than those that you don't, but you should try to stay away from that.
As for the Teofilio Stevenson, it's purely speculation in saying how good of a pro he would have been. It sort of like trying to predict whether a college football star who has yet to play in the NFL will be the best NFL player ever or that he would be a complete bust. He probably won't be either but somehwere in the middle but where?

Stevenson would have no chance against Ali until at least 1978. Ali looked bad in the first Spinks fight and Stevenson my have been able to compete with him, thought it's doubtful that he would have won. Spinks deserves a little credit for a good fight. Ali was much more focused in the 2nd Spinks fight and beat Spinks easily and would certainly beat Stevenson.
Ali looked so bad against Holmes that Stevenson (and hundreds of other guys) could have beaten him. Doubtful that Stevenson would have beaten the Ali that lost to Berbick. Berbick was the top contender and Ali was competitive with him.
As for the stamina thing, going 15 rounds is a huge adjustment from 3 rounds, both physically and mentally.
The Chuck Wepner comparison is silly. Yes Wepner almost went 15 rounds against Ali but that doesn't mean that Stevenson would have. Wepner had been a pro 10 years before he fought Ali. He went 12 rounds four times and 10 rounds several times. It wasn't nearly as big of an adjustment for Wepner to go 15 as would be for Stevenson.
A fighter may physically last 15 rounds, but can he still be winning rounds in the middle and late rounds.

We really don't know how good Stevenson have been. Remember, he was only competitng against amatuers.

generic screen name wrote:Anyone has some footage of Teofilio Stevenson? I usually see lame two second footage, and he's not on youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOB7_BFqUeU

A tribute to the great Cuban heavyweight.

Great amateur does not equal great, good, or even viable Pro, especially with no pro experience
I fought a former AAU national champion before my 10th pro fight.
Won an easy 8 round decision. The kid had no idea how to punch inside, clinch, or what to do when he got stung. By the 6 th round, he was winded and beat. Good thing it was me, because a heavy hitting 200+ pound HW would have seriously hurt this kid.

The whole Ali vs Stevenson thing, or Stevenson vs any top 10 HW at that time, would have been like Evil Kaneval jumping the snake river canyon, a hyped spectacle that would have ended as a giant farce