BoxRec

Decagon wrote:

The Great John L wrote:Yeah, just like Jack Sharkey when he was KO’d by Dempsey. He was counted out and clearly beaten.

Well, there's a little controversy there. He was knocked out by an illegal combo. Bad decisions aren't clean wins. Poor stoppages aren't clean wins. They don't mean the same as clean wins, but they don't mean the same as clean losses. One guy quitting or being rightly disqualified? That's different. I mean, only an idiot would argue that Sharkey wasn't jobbed in that fight.

Also, Sharkey had a spectacular career outside of the Depsey fight, beating Godfrey, Wills, Schmeling (most overrated robbery of the 1930s), Delaney, Stribling, Lougrhan and Risko, to name a few. That's what I rank him based on. I went through a Sharkey nuthugging phase a few years ago when I ranked him #14 or something, but I'm happy with him at #20.

8)

Decagon wrote:No. If a fighter clearly loses a fight, I don't give him credit for it. Conn against Lous, Golota against Bowe, Ruddock against Tyson, Quitali against Byrd... We've gone over this 20 times. Are you really this dense, or are you just pretending to be stupid?

Well youre certainly stupid enough to rate Moore higher than Patterson as a heavyweight, even though Floyd koed him!!.... nice one!... 8) ...you're always good for a laugh Dec... 8)

Decagon wrote:

silkov wrote:

Decagon wrote:No. If a fighter clearly loses a fight, I don't give him credit for it. Conn against Lous, Golota against Bowe, Ruddock against Tyson, Quitali against Byrd... We've gone over this 20 times. Are you really this dense, or are you just pretending to be stupid?

Well youre certainly stupid enough to rate Moore higher than Patterson as a heavyweight, even though Floyd koed him!!.... nice one!... 8) ...you're always good for a laugh Dec... 8)

I also rank Schmeling above Louis. Would you rank Ross Puritty over Wladimir Klitschko?

Well, you probably would if left unattended...

Decagon wrote:Do you actually think your stupid views influence others?!?!? Talk about delusions of grandeur. Most people simply laugh at your ravings about sucky, Eastern European heavyweights.

The only delusional person here is you mate, whatever your taking its turning your brain to mush and making you a laughing stock on here, as for the 'sucky' Eastern Europeon heavies that seem to worry you so much they have taken over the division unless you hadnt noticed and this is just the begining!... the American heavyweight is finished... learn to live with it!... 8)

silkov wrote:

Decagon wrote:Do you actually think your stupid views influence others?!?!? Talk about delusions of grandeur. Most people simply laugh at your ravings about sucky, Eastern European heavyweights.

The only delusional person here is you mate, whatever your taking its turning your brain to mush and making you a laughing stock on here, as for the 'sucky' Eastern Europeon heavies that seem to worry you so much they have taken over the division unless you hadnt noticed and this is just the begining!... the American heavyweight is finished... learn to live with it!... 8)

Leave Decagon alone; he is a hopeless, compulsive case. This is the only way he can communicate. I've long stopped bothering with him -- after all, the drunkard at the entrance to my Metro station has his brain about as blown out as him, but he is significantly more entertaining.

Lets be more understanding!... Dec can't help it!... 8)

Decagon wrote:Okay, I got lazy and stopped at 81 instead of a multiple of five. This list needs a LOT of work, so I'd appreciate your comments. Stuff like, "Oh, my God! Tiger Jack at #79?!?! That's stupid!" aren't really helpful. I'd rather talk about the placement of individual fighters in relation to other individual fighters, and please remember, this list will probably change.

• 1. Muhammad Ali
  2. Joe Louis
  3. Larry Holmes
  4. Jack Johnson
  5. Joe Frazier
  6. Sonny Liston
  7. George Foreman
  8. Evander Holyfield
  9. Rocky Marciano
  10. Lennox Lewis
  11. Jack Dempsey
  12. Mike Tyson
  13. Gene Tunney
  14. Ezzard Charles
  15. Jersey Joe Walcott
  16. Sam Langford
  17. Jim Jeffries
  18. Riddick Bowe
  19. Max Schmelling
  20. Jack Sharkey
  21. Archie Moore
  22. Jimmy Young
  23. Ken Norton
  24. Michael Spinks
  25. Floyd Patterson
  26. Earnie Shavers
  27. Joe Jeannette
  28. Jerry Quarry
  29. Harry Wills
  30. Cleveland Williams
  31. Chris Byrd
  32. Max Baer
  33. Elmer Ray
  34. Ike Ibeabuchi
  35. David Tua
  36. Tim Witherspoon
  37. John L. Sullivan
  38. George Godfrey
  39. Ron Lyle
  40. Oscar Bonavena
  41. Pinklon Thomas
  42. Hasim Rahman
  43. Ingemar Johanssen
  44. Roland LaStarza
  45. Sam McVey
  46. John Ruiz
  47. Joe Bugner
  48. Gerry Cooney
  49. Buster Douglas
  50. Harry Greb
  51. Harold Johnson
  52. James Corbett
  53. Michael Moorer
  54. Vitali Klitschko
  55. Zora Foley
  56. Jimmy Ellis
  57. Razor Ruddock
  58. Tom Sharkey
  59. Ernie Terrel
  60. Wladimir Klitschko
  61. Michael Dokes
  62. Tommy Burns
  63. Roy Jones
  64. James Toney
  65. Marvin Hart
  66. John Tate
  67. Tommy Loughran
  68. Jimmy Bivins
  69. James Braddock
  70. Gerrie Coetzee
  71. Tony Tucker
  72. Mike Weaver
  73. John Henry Lewis
  74. Billy Conn
  75. Greg Page
  76. Rex Layne
  77. Trevor Berbick
  78. Bonecrusher Smith
  79. Tiger Jack Fox
  80. Buddy Baer
  81. Bob Fitzsimmons

Mostly a good list, I think. Personally, I'd say Johnson is too high, Liston is too high, Marciano's too low, Tunney's a little too high, Jeffries is considerably too low, Floyd Patterson is too low, Cleveland Williams is much too high, Ingemar Johansson is much too low, Gerry Cooney is too high, Roy Jones doesn't belong on the list on the basis of one heavyweight fight, and you really sell all the turn-of-the-20th-century guys short. I'm not a big fan of Corbett, Fitzsimmons and Sharkey, but they at least belong in the top 50.

Moore over Patterson? Patterson got KO'd a few times, but Moore never faced Liston and Patterson beat some good fighters, especially after he lost his title.

Definitely not terrible... I like Frazier over Marciano, and Holmes in the top 5. I'd probably rate Lewis a little higher. I would tend to rank Foreman over Liston, but I understand the argument behind Liston ahead.

longevity is a useful tool for measuring .... not just how long a career spanned.... but how long was each champion completely dominant ?

so i would be surprised to see both Frazier and Foreman or liston for that matter in the top ten (altho Sonny is a personal fave of mine)

I don't know that Liston and Frazier had any less longevity than a lot of people on the list... Foreman was a top Heavyweight in three different decades.

i was going down the line of dominance whilst champion.

there are many joe jeanettes and langfords out there

but a champion should be judged (among other things) whilst holding the crown

cant be said of ALI HOLMES LOUIS in terms of exploits whilst holding the undisputed crown these guys are intouchable (yes even Larry)

but look at all the unbeaten boxers that holmesfought .... all the past and future champions......... no one threatened Holmes at his peak (gerry cooney)

and like Louis he absorbed hammer blows that possibly no other fighters in history could have done

maybe joe grim

First Archie Moore- I like Archie but he simply wasn't a great heavyweight. He had two big fights at heavyweight and got knocked out by Marciano and Patterson. (Patterson is actually ranked behind Moore.)

archie moore dominated top ranked dangerous heavyweights like bob baker, nino valdez, clarence henry, jimmy bivins, ENOUGH SAID. thats very good win resume at heavyweight. not to mention many other heavyweight wins.


moores record at heavyweight was 86-4

moore beat bob baker and nino valdez 2x, both big powerful skilled heavyweights whom Cus D amato avoided like the plague

Yes anyone that beats Baker,Valdes, Henry, Bivins has to be a great heavyweight. #21 of all time seems about right. Obviously only 20 heavyweights of all time could have done this. Don't forget the draws with Pastrano, the legendary Karel Sys and the great Howard King.

I also don't like it when fighters duck the top guys. When Archie was fighting all of those top heavyweights in the 1940's and 1950's, how did he do against Walcott, Charles,Machen,Folley,Williams,Johansson,and Liston?

Ambling Alp wrote:Yes anyone that beats Baker,Valdes, Henry, Bivins has to be a great heavyweight. #21 of all time seems about right. Obviously only 20 heavyweights of all time could have done this.

All of those guys are arguably top 100 all-time heavyweights, and Bivins is arguably top 50. Valdes was #1 contender on an impressive winning streak when Moore beat him, Henry was regarded by many as the best up-and-comer in the division, and Baker had a very strong resume. Moore soundly beat all of them, along with a host of other contenders and fringe contenders in the heavyweight division, while only losing to the absolute cream of the crop. I don't think only 20 fighters could have done that, but I'd say it definitely places him in the top 50 and makes a strong case for top 40 or top 35.

Don't forget the draws with Pastrano, the legendary Karel Sys and the great Howard King.

Moore was nearing 50 years old when he drew with Pastrano, who was a young future world champion. How many champions in boxing history have gone to draws with future champions while they themselves were in their late 40s? I believe the answer is precisely... one. Sys may not have been "legendary," but he was a solid contender, and this was in Argentina, where most fights which were close at all were called draws- look at Carlos Monzon's record if you don't believe me. He had one draw with Howard King, but as you conveniently fail to mention, he also beat King four times.

I also don't like it when fighters duck the top guys. When Archie was fighting all of those top heavyweights in the 1940's and 1950's, how did he do against Walcott, Charles,Machen,Folley,Williams,Johansson,and Liston?

Accusing Archie Moore of ducking anyone is ludicrous. It was the other way around. Moore was ducked over and over again throughout his career, over the course of decades. He was #1 contender at middleweight and denied a title shot, #1 at light heavyweight for years before he was finally granted a shot, took a huge campaign and all kinds of noteworthy wins to get a shot at the heavyweight championship, etc. Moore went up against more Hall-of-Famers over a longer timespan than just about anyone in the history of the sport and had no qualms about facing the best. Even when he was in his late 40s, he was quite willing to fight future champ Pastrano and undefeated gold medalist and future legend Ali. Moore would fight absolutely anyone, and you're being downright silly to pretend otherwise.