BoxRec

IrishRufusMurphy wrote:

Max Baer: He killed two men, so they say. He hit harder than anyone, so they say. A year after losing the World Heavyweight Championship, he got outboxed by a guy making his pro debut, so they say. Max Baer was a fighter of myth, a showman, a killer. He was feared

Yeah but take into consideration that Baer had fought 25 men in a 3 month period of time, sure most were mediocre, but that's sure as hell to burn out someone. Plus, I think maybe Max could have thrown it, I mean with his power and all, I don't think he would want to hurt someone who was just starting out---and he was also doing his exhibition tour.

It might go down in the records as a loss, but there's alot to consider.

Any evidence............ or just more wishful thinking?

After the Louis fight and before the first Farr fight he fought 25 professional fights in a three month span. Check it out. That's sure as hell to burn anyone out, don't care who they are. Also after the Louis fight he engaged in exhibitions across the United States. Check out Maxie's Gal website, it says that in there.

And with him being tore up over killing Cambell and all, I think he didn't want to hurt that guy he fought. The guy was a good amateur from what I have heard, but was still young and just starting out. I don't think that Max wanted to hurt the guy and really wanted him to have a chance.

That is just my opinion.

IrishRufusMurphy wrote:After the Louis fight and before the first Farr fight he fought 25 professional fights in a three month span. Check it out. That's sure as hell to burn anyone out, don't care who they are. Also after the Louis fight he engaged in exhibitions across the United States. Check out Maxie's Gal website, it says that in there.

And with him being tore up over killing Cambell and all, I think he didn't want to hurt that guy he fought. The guy was a good amateur from what I have heard, but was still young and just starting out. I don't think that Max wanted to hurt the guy and really wanted him to have a chance.

That is just my opinion.

So, in other words, no evidence ie just wishful thinking.

As I suspected.

Collins, the first bit was evidence that Baer could have been burned out from fighting. Could you honestly see someone fight 25 professional fights and probably an additional 20 or more in exhibitions and still look great every time out, all in a three month span? If you can then you're thinking along the lines of comic book fantasy than reality then.

The only other guy I know of who did a similar thing was John L. Sullivan when he fought 154 men in his exhibition 'knock out' tour, but that was far longer than Baer's 3 month span and it's likely that most of the people who got in there with John L. were guys off the street/lumberjacks/bricklayers etc.

As far as the other, yes it's just my opinion. But a plausible one. After the Cambell fight Baer pulled alot of his punches when he had people hurt when they weren't on his level.

IrishRufusMurphy wrote:Collins, the first bit was evidence that Baer could have been burned out from fighting. Could you honestly see someone fight 25 professional fights and probably an additional 20 or more in exhibitions and still look great every time out, all in a three month span? If you can then you're thinking along the lines of comic book fantasy than reality then.

The only other guy I know of who did a similar thing was John L. Sullivan when he fought 154 men in his exhibition 'knock out' tour, but that was far longer than Baer's 3 month span and it's likely that most of the people who got in there with John L. were guys off the street/lumberjacks/bricklayers etc.

As far as the other, yes it's just my opinion. But a plausible one. After the Cambell fight Baer pulled alot of his punches when he had people hurt when they weren't on his level.

I think we've already established it is just wishful thinking on your part, young Rupert. Why are you posting the same thing over and over again?
Is it the 'more is better' theory?

IrishRufusMurphy wrote:Collins, the first bit was evidence that Baer could have been burned out from fighting. Could you honestly see someone fight 25 professional fights and probably an additional 20 or more in exhibitions and still look great every time out, all in a three month span? If you can then you're thinking along the lines of comic book fantasy than reality then.

The only other guy I know of who did a similar thing was John L. Sullivan when he fought 154 men in his exhibition 'knock out' tour, but that was far longer than Baer's 3 month span and it's likely that most of the people who got in there with John L. were guys off the street/lumberjacks/bricklayers etc.

As far as the other, yes it's just my opinion. But a plausible one. After the Cambell fight Baer pulled alot of his punches when he had people hurt when they weren't on his level.

Baer also fought 28 times in just over a year and a half between 1929 and 1931 ,he nearly always fought often like a lot of fighters in them days,I think when you take in to consideration Max not always being totally serious for fights he probally just underestimated the guy.I like Max Baer and he was a powerful guy with the right hand but that loss cant be ignored,why didnt they have a rematch? To be fair ,Baer seemed an intelligant guy from what I have read ,it probally did affect him killing a man and like many others who have maimed /killed iin the ring (Joe Bugner,Chris Eubanks) their never the same after. Having said all that he done a decent job of butchering "Two ton " Tony Galento and Ben Foord!

Decagon wrote:Dempsey wasn't afraid of Willard? Then why did he later say, "I wasn't fighting for the title... I was fighting for my life!"

Perhaps he meant by "life" all his purse,which he bet on knocking out Willard in the first,if he was "scared" why would he be that confident of finishing Willard in one round? Willard had fought onece in 4 years before fighting Dempsey apart from three exibition fights,he was pushing 40 years of age and Dempsey entered that ring with confidence bordering on contempt.Whatever he said afterwards was being diplomatic,lets not forget Willard showed a ton of guts to take such an awful beating in the first round and come out for the second and third. I respect all men that climb into the ring and Willard was brave but not intimidating.

Thanks for the post on this Decagon.

Kind of reminds me of the fight Joe Louis had with an obscure tomato can by the name of Johnny Davis who was only 3-3-0 (1). I had always heard rumors of a 26th title defense and Davis was supposedly it. It was supposed to be an exhibition, scheduled for four rounds, but there were judges at ringside and the New York State Athletic Commission said that the title was at stake.

Louis was furious at this ruling and blew away this poor bastard in 53 seconds. The fight is not officially recognized as being for the world title anymore, but at that time the state of New York did.

I think a similar case could be made for the 'Kentucky Rosebud' as he had an exhibition with a champion and 'won' the exhibition.

And as far as butchering up Tony galento is concerned, he was pretty much the only guy Max Baer literally hated. I think Baer was quoted as saying he hated that the fight was stopped because he sincerly wanted to drop Galento down and out. Also remember Joe Louis also hated Galento, as did several others.

As for Dempsey being scared of Williard I agree with icejack. Why would he be afraid if he bet 10-1 odds on him knocking Willard out in the 1st round? And he walked away from the ring after the 1st round was over thinking he won it, but had to be walked back to the ring and for the next two rounds broke Willard's jaw, eye socket, ribs until Willard said 'I still have my farm in Kansas' and quit on his stool.

Davis was 3-3-0 (1) when he fought Joe Louis according to this site. He did have several other bouts afterward, but never to the degree of the Louis fight (exhibition or legit).

Now we've gone over the marquee names, how about the others?

In terms of pure scary/weird looking & creepy unsettling demeanor, Michael Dokes is my #1. Got a great post from some ancient forum in the late 90s like Googlechat about a weight lifter who ran into Dokes at a petrol station in Vegas, some classic observations will try paste it up here its on my PC at home.

Mike Tyson and Ike Ibeabuchi would be scary in terms of real danger to anyone even Joe Public who might say the slightest thing not to their liking in their presence. Tony Ayala too because although he comes across as perfectly rational and reformed character when speaking, you know complete psychotic thoughts run rampant not far beneath the service.

The giant Roy Tiger Williams definitely up there, Earnie Shavers told me personally that he & a whole bunch of 70s heavies were scared to death of Roy, the guy was so mean and surly and volatile. (despite some blemishes on his record, remember he took fights on short notice and could never stay active because he couldn't get many fights)

Cant think of many others but my face was recently within an inch of Howard Eastmans and although he seemed in a cheery mood with me the guy had all manic eyes and intense manner, kind of indescribable really but was looked sort of like a big black cat eyeing up an injured bird that couldn't get off the ground. Felt like he'd happily pose for a picture with me then take me in the back and eat my brains.

Roy Tiger Williams!

a geezer ive seen doing unlicensed shows called Darren Thompson is tattoed all over, even on his shaven head - and he is a bit of a banger, i know that a lot of his fights seem to be over before they start, people are put right off by the look of him, he looks like he just got released lol

overhand_right wrote:Roy Tiger Williams!

AMAZING! TO THINK Richard Dunne beat him! Still Dunne always had plenty of guts ,wasnt he a para in the Army?

Decagon wrote:By the way, a few people asked why I didn't include Joe Louis. Although he was a great heavyweight - maybe the greatest - he didn't have a menacing presence in the ring the way Liston did.

Thats true,but he was a damn more menacing than Jess willard!

I never thought Lennox Lewis looked remotely intimidating in staredowns. Seems too shy and self conscious a character to me. I think it was more 'what he was capable of doing' to you that scared some opponents i.e. seeing his right hand throw Ruddock in the air or deck a cement head like Tony Tucker is pretty frightening.

As for Tiger Williams, Mikee your so right. We're having this convo on another forum. How on earth did Dunn manage to beat the fearsome monster Tiger Williams?

Dunn was gutsy i admit, and a southpaw. Unless it was a hometown gift it must of been Dunn fighting in his natursal climate and possibly Tiger on short notice/jet lagged/out of shape or something. Who on earth knows? The left hooks he planted on Shavers should have sent Dunn into comaville. This guy Tiger was so nuts he had a two 10 round sparring wars with Muhammad Ali in Zaire because he felt he was jobbed of money. After two days of hell Ali said "pay him his money and get him the hell outta my camp!!"

Decagon wrote:From another forum (written by me), the top ten most intimidating heavyweights of all time:

1. Muhammad Ali: Liston said that he was afraid of him. End of story. Ali was a master of manipulation and psychology. He could get the fans to hate you. He could get your own family to hate you, and he spent weeks or even months doing it. The staredown in his first match with Liston? Incredible.
2. Sonny Liston: No one's ever been as menacing at staredowns as Liston was. Ali was good at 'em too, but he was mostly acting. With Liston, you had the pure "I'm gonna' eff you up" vibe coming off of him. After the bout was over, he'd go across the ring and shake the other guy's hand. He never bit anyone's ear off. He never punched a referee. He never had to act like a fool. It was all business.
3. John L. Sullivan: I know many of you hate me mentioning the old timers in lists like these, but you have to realize what kind of fighter Sullivan was. He walked around kind of the same way Mike Tyson did, and he fought the way an 18th-century Tyson might have. He was DEADLY in the first five rounds, but he was still dangerous in the 20th. He often showed up so drunk that he could barely walk, but always angry. He lost a little in the later rounds and a lot of people tried to outlast him, but few did.
4. Rocky Marciano: A lot of people forget how truly menacing Marciano was. Even when he was champion, a lot of the top fighters didn't want to get into the ring with him. It didn't matter how strong you were, because he was stronger. It didn't matter how much you trained, because he trained harder. It didn't matter how slick you were, because he'd simply bash your arms to death, the way he did in the LaStarza rematch. It didn't matter how much you were ahead, because he could knock you out with one punch.
5. Mike Tyson: Even after Buster Douglas showed that he was human, Mike Tyson was still feared by a generation of fighters. I can't tell you how many people told me that Lewis didn't stand a chance against him, or that Holyfield didn't in the rematch. Even when it was plain to see that he wasn't at his best, he was still feared. In the end, he had to go to outlandish means to maintain that aura of menace, but it was still there.
6. Jim Jeffries: In 1902, one of the greatest heavyweights of all time and one of the greatest fighters of all time, Sam Langford, said that he would fight anyone in the world - except Jim Jeffries. Jeffries was a hulk of a man, weighing well over 200 pounds, without an ounce of fat (as the old saying goes). He was a great athlete, and he was a nationwide sensation.
7. Jess Willard: Willard wasn't the first super-heavyweight to make his way into the heavyweight division. In his era, literally hundreds of 6'3" or better heavyweights hit the scene. Willard was simply better than all of them. Even the big guys who beat up all the other big guys lost to Willard, and finally, after 10 years and 27 rounds, the great Jack Johnson fell to Willard. Cus d'Amato once said that what the coward feels and what the hero feels is exactly the same, and that the hero becomes the hero by overcoming those feelings. Jack Dempsey, that great heavyweight, was terrified of Willard. He dealt with that terror - though - and launched one of the greatest World Heavyweight Championships ever off of his fight of him. Although I'm not convinced that he could beat Jameel McCline or Nicolai Valuev, everyone of his era saw him as unbeatable.
8. George Foreman: So, you think he's a little low? You're thinking of that segment where a saddened Howard Cossell said that this one was one that Ali couldn't win? eff that. Foreman was always under Ali's shadow. Even back in the 1960s, Ali had a sort of mythical quality about him. A Senate investigation was launched because Ali was predicting the round he would knock out his opponents in. No champion before or after him consistently took on as many quality fighters. No one was Ali.
9. Max Baer: He killed two men, so they say. He hit harder than anyone, so they say. A year after losing the World Heavyweight Championship, he got outboxed by a guy making his pro debut, so they say. Max Baer was a fighter of myth, a showman, a killer. He was feared.
10. Joe Frazier: I talk to so many people who only know Frazier from his bouts with Ali and Foreman. For me, the Frazier of the 1960s was the true Frazier. I would've loved to have seen him take on Ali when Ali was still in his prime - as if I'd imply that the Ali of the 1970s wasn't INCREDIBLE! Joe had weaknesses, but he kept going. And he had the greatest left hook boxing had ever seen. Ray Robinson's left hook on Fullmer? Patterson's on Johanssen? Frazier had a better hook, and he threw it all the time. He trained like a motherfucker. After he beat Ali, he was thought of as invincible, even though he was already past it.

Hey Dec,been studying your top ten ,which all in all is pretty decent but have a couple of questions why is Frazier so low and I noticed all these guys were champs ,how about giving us your top ten intimidating guys who didnt win a title .This is one of my favourite threads on this site so far

As far as non champions/titlists go Tom Sharkey must have been an intimidating guy to get in the ring with.

..good reasons for good choices....but archie moore broke langford's number of kayoes before his final fight with that wrestler. plus..i'm not going to look it up, but i think young stribling held the record before archie....though some of stribling's kayoes were padded by some over dubious opponents..such as his chauffer...

Terence wrote:Chins are intimidating.

Ever hear that story about Sam Langford where he comes out for the fifth round and tries to touch gloves with his opponent, the guy protests "It's not the last round" Langford responds "Is for you"...and it was.

Not sure if that's true but stuff like that must get inside your head more than stare downs and trash talk.

..decagon... i can't correct you because i don't know if you ARE wrong. your source of information may be better than mine. but...i don't remember which fight it was... but i do recall that when he scored the kayo it was written up at the time that it was the new record for kayoes. i think after winning a decision over howard king, or it might have been where they fought to a draw, that archie said it wouldn't be right to break or tie the record with king as he was a buddie....something like that. maybe i'll have to count up the knockouts on these guys' records after all.

well. chicago is going into its first deep winter mode and it will last for at least a week....so i'll be inside for many hours and perhaps i can do i then.

Decagon wrote: I'll probably drop Ruiz;

I would if I were you, Dec

Decagon wrote:Thanks. Frazier's low because I didn't want him, Foreman, Liston and Ali crowding the top five. For some, the scholastic study of boxing takes precedence over all, but I really wanted a list that would celebrate fighters of various eras. Do I think a drunken, 190-pound John L. Sullivan would scare Earnie Shavers? Of course not. When listing the top heavyweights of all time, I try to judge each fighter and his opponents on absolute terms, rather than on how they were compared to their respective eras. That being said, if a fighter completely dominates his weight class and cleans out the top ten, there's got to be something special about him. Here's a preliminary sketch of my top 10 most intimidating heavyweights who never won the true World Heavyweight Championship:

Shut up newb.

Decagon wrote:I'd respond, but I have absolutely no idea who you are.

He's the conqueror of Robsteth, slayer of the Jheri-curled giant and about to bring Broadaxe back from the dead. He's the one who drank Garing Lane under the table and put fear in the heart of Howard Eastman. That's who he is and many things more. For he is the Overhanded One, disciple of the great Terrible Tim.

Also, dont forget 'holder of a provisional driving licence'.