BoxRec

terap wrote:"Louis was a power puncher, Ali was a boxer. Of course Louis has a better KO ratio."

Hilarious, Gensu.

Now tell how us you reconcile the above statement with Ali's one-punch "knockout" of Liston in their second "fight."

I am all ears.

I love it .


Tell me all about Ali's magnificent "knockout" of Liston.

Quite simply, Liston tanked the second fight. That doesn't mean, however, that it was a "phantom punch." It was a nice, sneaky right hand. The knockdown might have actually been legit. But Liston faked the KO.

I think Liston was out of shape, mentally and physically, for that fight.

Louis was one of the most vicious punchers in heavyweight history, Ali was one of the division's greatest boxers. The different KO ratio is not surprising, and shouldn't be used as an argument that one is better than the other.

terap this is just childish.

ali was an old man getting his ass whipped badly. the corner stopped the fight.

your last post makes me wonder exactly why so many poeple are wasting their time 'debating' with such a juvenile and misinformed poster such as yourself.

gensu3k1 wrote:

Dickhead wrote:Ali had a lot of close calls. The ones I really have a problem with are the second & third Norton fights, the Young fight for sure and the Foreman fight. Foreman should have been allowed to continue, he was up at the count of 10 and was not hurt, only tired. That was pure crap. That was the luckiest night of Ali's career.

Some other close calls include the Cooper fight, 'Enery was fcuked on that one for sure. Lyle was winning until a controversial stoppage in Ali's favor. Fortunate for Ali that Fraziers eyes swelled up badly in the Thrilla, or he would have lost that one too. Doug Jones could have won that fight, it could have gone either way. Add these examples to the ones in the first paragraph and we see Ali had more than his share of close calls. Funny how he always came out on the winning end.

Foreman had nothing left. There's no way he could have kept going for the 7 rounds (approx.) that were left in the fight. And Ali was pretty fresh, as we saw in the post-fight press conference.

You are the first person that I have heard refer to the Lyle stoppage as "controversial." Ali caught Lyle and then threw about 50 unanswered punches. With all due respect, have you seen that fight? Ali was able to land like 20 punches with Lyle against the ropes, pause to ask the ref to stop it and then resume pummeling him. They weren't huge punches, but Lyle was hurt and was not throwing punches nor defending himself. The ref had to stop it.

With all that said, it was perhaps the most miraculous comeback of Ali's career, and should probably be discussed more.

I agree this fight should be discussed more because it completely shatters the myth that Ali was always exciting. Every time I'm forced to listen to a fringe fight fan blather on and on about how exciting and dominating Ali was, I put this tape in. Damn, its a pathetic display. And I wish it was discussed more to counteract all this blind Ali worship. Ali is overrated, no question.

ali has Parkinson's syndrome. No doubt the state of his health is mostly due to damage he took to the head...but reaching back to Doug Jones is stretching so far that any other comments on this subject by this poster must suffer from this ridiculous lack of credibilty.

Terap has been-kicked-in-the-balls-too-many-times-now-they-need-to-drop-again-disorder.

terap wrote:Now Jaclem is a medical doctor.

Show me in the medical literature where it says someone who has Parkinson's can gain weight.

Ali does not have Parkinsons.


He has hit-in-the-head-too-much-by-Joe-Frazier syndrome.

Ali has Parkinson's symptoms secondary to dementia pugilistica.

Before the Holmes fight, Ali was already showing Parkinson's SYMPTOMS. He does not have Parkinson's syndrome, but the symptoms of the disease were present in him before the Ali fight (and actually, IIRC, before the first Spinks fight).

It is fundamentally absurd to use fights such as Ali's with Holmes in a discussion of his overall merit as a fighter. He was absolutely shot. It would be like using Ray Leonard's fights with Norris and Camacho as a measure of his ability.

In addition, calling Ali a "yellow dog" because his corner stopped the horrible beating he was taking is simply cruel and unfair.. Do you think Arguello quit "like a dog" against Pryor? We ask enough of these men already.

I thought I posted this already.

Anyway...re; ALi's physical and metal condition, it is no doubt mostly caused by punches to the head. Terap...what is YOUR excuse?

i read two medical reports that he suffers from Parkinson's Syndrome, but I think they were made by doctors who came to their conclusion just by observation, not an actual physical. Gensu's information may be better than mine. As he points out, Parkinson's symptoms and dementiia pugilistica are not mutually exclusive.

I am not one of those who worships at the Ali shrine...but to denigrate his career in the manner terap does is just ridiculous.

Equally so are terap's ranting about how this forum has become one whose value is diminished by discussions turning into insults, smears, etc, when you consider that HE is the one who is most guilty of this!! Do not take my word for it...just go back and read his posts.

Its not like your man Joe Louis didn't gain weight after he was coming to end/retiring his career. I don't think I know a heavyweight champ who hasn't gained weight with age. I don't think Ali is the best heavy of all time, but he is second behind Louis.

For whatever reason, I enjoy watching the later fights of Ali, especially those which ended in controversial decisions.

I've watched the Shavers fight several times, and I either score it a draw or by a point for Ali. Shavers just took too many rounds off.

I've watched the third Ali-Norton fight twice and scored it a draw both times. I scored the 13th and 15th even, and a case can be made for either man in those rounds.

As for the Young fight, I scored this for Ali both times that I watched it. A lot of people I respect say that this was the decision that Ali CLEARLY didn't deserve. However, I feel that Ali deserved the victory. Since I'm in a very small minority, I did a round by round synopsis of the fight. If you disagree with my scoring, could you point to specific rounds? In any case, the argument that Young "dominated" Ali does not paint an accurate picture of the fight in my opinion.

(This fight was scored on a 5 point system. I assume that knockdowns and standing eight-counts are counted in this system in the same way as in the 10 point system)

Round 1: Clear round for young. Ali almost completely inactive. 5-4 Young.

Round 2. Ali once again very inactive. Young mostly lands pawing jabs, but controls the ring. 10-8 Young.

Round 3: A very difficult round to score. Young is content to land jabs on Ali's gloves. Young's body shots in this round are mostly low and thus are not scoring punches. Difficult to determine ring generalship with so few clean punches landed. Ali lands the only significant punches of the round to close it. A case could be made for an even round or for Young. Perhaps a key round. 14-13 Young.

Round 4: Young easily takes the round on effective body punching. 19-17 Young.

Round 5: Ali able to impose his strength on young and catch him with relatively hard head shots. Round 3 and 5 are the most debatable of the rounds I scored for Ali. 23-22 Young.

Round 6: The first obvious round for Ali. Young's output slows and Ali is able to time his jab for counters. Late in the round, Young throws some of the weakest punches in heavyweight history against Ali's Elbows, grabs the ropes to try to trap Ali within his arms and then melts to the canvas as Ali tries to shove him off. 27-27.

Round 7: Clear round for Ali. Ali is able to initiate exchange and have success. For the first time, Young sticks his head through the ropes and allows Ali to hit him in the body, a "tactic" that will cost him the fight. 32-31 Ali.

Round 8: Young is more aggressive and easily takes the round. 36-36.

Round 9: Midway through the round, Ali attempts to dance, but Young counters over his jab and is very effective. 41-40 Young.

Round 10: Ali again dances and is much more effective. Young lands a crisp right hand midway through, but Ali controls the action and outjabs Young in the center of the ring. 45-45.

Round 11: Clear round for Young. 50-49.

Round 12: A comfortable round for Young until the last 45 seconds, when Ali stages a rally. Young doesn't seem to be hurt, but is not firing back. Just when the round seems to have swung in Ali's favor, Young either falls through the ropes or voluntarily sticks his head through them. In either case, the referee gives him a standing eight count, and Ali gets a 2 point round on my card. 54-53 Ali.

Round 13: Young again falls through the ropes. Why not take a point? Almost immediately, he does it again, obviously on purpose, allowing Ali to hit him to the body as he leans out of the ring with his back turned, like a man leaning out his window to look at the street below. Ali brawls somewhat effectively as Young, for perhaps the first time, looks like the more tired fighter. Ali lands a good right hand at the close of the round to seal it. 59-57 Ali.

Round 14: Effective counterpunching by Young easily gives him the round. 63-62 Ali.

Round 15: Ali begins the round by bum rushing Young and landing two or three power shots. Young retreats and sticks his head through the ropes in a display of cowardice. The ref is nice and doesn't take a point. Young is effective in the middle of the round, but Ali carries the last third with a mixture of brawling and boxing.

My final score: 68-66 for Muhammad Ali.

I think that Ali had nothing left after Manila, and that Shavers, Norton and Young all should have beaten him. But Ali's toughness and their tactical mistakes were bigger reasons for Ali's maintenance of the title than poor judging.

::Ali did not land one clean left jab in the entire 15 rounds against Young.::

You can't honestly believe that. When was the last time you saw Ali-Young?

::He looked liked an ass missing his jab by sometimes as much as full foot with his inability to judge distance as Young made a fool of him.

Meanwhile Young bounced Ali's head around like it was a speedbag in the gym with his left jab.

If Young could do that, what would Jim Corbett, Bob Firzsimmons, Jim Jeffries, Jack Johnson, Gene Tunney, Jack Sharkey, Joe Louis, Ezzard Charles, Jersey Joe Walcott, etc have done to Ali with a jab?::

Blah blah blah. Let's get back to the fight, okay?

::Georgie Benton taught novice Leon Spinks a rudimentary jab and he messed up the "greatest of all time" Ali with it throughout their fight where Ali disgraced the heavyweight championship with its long history by losing it to a seven-fight novice.::

Ali was horribly, horribly shot by that time. Why can't you understand this?

::Only an Ali salesman could look at the Young-Ali fight and say with a straight face that the pathetic Ali "won."::

Why not actually discuss the facts of the fight?

Actually Rocky Marciano is the greatest boxer.

"actually marciano was the greatest boxer....bull"

indeed, never has a signature been so appropriate.....even though it's only half complete.

there are those who think marciano was the greatest heavy...thjose who tink he was one of the greatest...and those (like myself) who think he is the most overrated boxer ever.

Those who think he was great make very good arguments for their opinion....toughness...punch....condition...and I admit mine is subjective....as is theirs...and there's no way to really settle the discusion.

But....I don't think the 49-0 is significant at all in judging him. His other characteristics...fine...but as I and others say often boxing is not a statisical sport. What if Rocky had been a street kid and had to start early and fight his way to the top before he caught the eye of Al Weill? What if he had had to stay in the game , well past his prime, because of poor money management...as Louis, Charles, Robinson, Pep and so many others from all weights had to...and therefore have those losses at the end of thier careers?

One reason Marciano's record is pristine is because he was able to quit before that happened, and I am happy for him that he did. but 49 victories and no defeats is a perfect percentage...but a fighter with say..80 wins and 15 losses....may have been just as good a fighter and even better.

Hi Jaclem,

Not simply 49 wins. Somebody can have 49 wins and 50 losses.

49 consecutive wins. 43 by knock out (88%). Undisputed heavyweight champion of the world.
No losses. No draws. No NC. No wins by DQ.
And Marciano is absoulute tested fighter. He symply beat ALL.
Did you know anybody other?
Someone saw that 6 titlt defenses are not much?I think it is absolute enough If you are undefeated and before that in 49 havyweight pro fights. Many people hate Marciano for this reason. For example "legendary" Dempsey had 5 defenses and many losses NC and drows before top and beat many zeroes, but nobody crtitique him, becouse isn't undefeated.
Marciano defeated undisputed haevyweight crown only versus HOF and top contenders not vs. avarage and nobody's.

"What if"," What if"...you can say this for all boxers.

"Marciano is undefeated becouse quit"?!?
No, he quit becouse his boxing career was complete and not aim and defiance behind.The only complete career in profesional boxing.
Do you think that boxers liked fighting? No, nabody realy like punch in head, usualy they fight for money and later for very much money and prestige.
When some man start pro boxing career he want to be like Marciano. If he was destroyed before top, he want to be like Louis.If he was destroyed in his prime and in his later career he want to be like Ali.
I'm 100% sure that and Ali want to be like Rocky Marciano-without losses, but still nobody can be.

Let me know.Maybe I miss someone.

Jaclem wrote:there are those who think marciano was the greatest heavy...thjose who tink he was one of the greatest...and those (like myself) who think he is the most overrated boxer ever.

Those who think he was great make very good arguments for their opinion....toughness...punch....condition...and I admit mine is subjective....as is theirs...and there's no way to really settle the discusion.

But....I don't think the 49-0 is significant at all in judging him. His other characteristics...fine...but as I and others say often boxing is not a statisical sport. What if Rocky had been a street kid and had to start early and fight his way to the top before he caught the eye of Al Weill? What if he had had to stay in the game , well past his prime, because of poor money management...as Louis, Charles, Robinson, Pep and so many others from all weights had to...and therefore have those losses at the end of thier careers?

One reason Marciano's record is pristine is because he was able to quit before that happened, and I am happy for him that he did. but 49 victories and no defeats is a perfect percentage...but a fighter with say..80 wins and 15 losses....may have been just as good a fighter and even better.

"What if Rocky had been a street kid and had to start early and fight his way to the top before he caught the eye of Al Weill?"
But that was exactly what he was! Obviously you don't know anything about Marciano. He was from a huge, extremely poor Italian immigrant family with no money, only making a tiny amount of income off of their father's job at a shoe factory. Marciano started fighting with no manager, no promoter, and no professional training whatsoever. He was matched up extremely hard in his early fights, for instance against Eddie Ross, who was 26-0 with 23 KOs. Marciano had several pro fights before Charlie Goldman took him under his wing, and then had to go longer still before Weill really decided he loved him. Rock ycould never get a pro trainer to help him in his amateur and early pro careers, because all of them thought he was awful, because of his lack of balance and skill, and his starting late. Goldman and Weill didn't take Marciano until he'd come up with an impressive string of early round KOs despite his lack of training equipment, a professional trainer, or a manager, and his being overmatched with the far more experienced Eddie Ross and Bobby Quinn.
AFTER THAT, Marciano fought mostly tomato cans for a while, then moved to contenders and champions. He had a fairly difficult career, but still never lost.
Not that I think Marciano was the greatest. Just that he was one of the greatest.
Terap: Your biases are amazing. Ali didn't quit against Holmes any more than Frazier did against Ali. Ali's cornerman stopped the fight. Why don't you call him the 'treacherous' Dundee?
And Ali 'collapsed off his stool as the round was supposed to start'?? Are you just hoping that no one here has seen the fight so we'll believe you? Ali didn't collapse until well after the 15th round was supposed to have started, and even then, his adrenaline was gone because THE FIGHT WAS OVER. You are a total idiot if you don't realize the effects the adrenaline of the fight would've had on Ali. Anyone who is in the middle of an action packed battle like that will have their heart pumping, and people are always able to do things they can't normally do if they're that pumped up. Saying that Ali would've collapsed had the fight gone on is like saying that because I ran more slowly a moment after the cougar stopped chasing me, the cougar would've caught me if it'd kept coming. Obviously I would've run faster than I normally could, because of my adrenaline. Saying that Ali would've collapsed during the fight because he did after the fight was over and had calmed down is crazy.

MARCIANO FRAZIER....I can discuss marciano's more about marciano and his career than you can from memory than you can, and allow you to have all the record books and biographies at hand while we do it.

As for the rest of your and others pro marciano comments please read my post again. move your lips while doing so if it helps. the only point i was making is that the 49/0 IN ITSELF is not all that significant. I'll let it rest at that.

MARCIANO FRAZIER (or MF for short.

Here's something to add to your pro marciano list:

Ezzard Charles told me Marciano was not the hardest hitter he ever faced, but was the strongest. "Man, he was so STRONG.... and i fought a lot of guys who were bigger and heavier...but nobody was that strong."

maybe when you talked to Ezzard Charles about him he said even more things in his favor. if so, let us know what they were.

Jaclem wrote:MARCIANO FRAZIER (or MF for short.

Here's something to add to your pro marciano list:

Ezzard Charles told me Marciano was not the hardest hitter he ever faced, but was the strongest. "Man, he was so STRONG.... and i fought a lot of guys who were bigger and heavier...but nobody was that strong."

maybe when you talked to Ezzard Charles about him he said even more things in his favor. if so, let us know what they were.

"Pro Marciano list"? I wasn't even saying he was the greatest. I said he was one of the greatest.

terap wrote:"Ali didn't quit against Holmes any more than Frazier did against Ali. Ali's cornerman stopped the fight. Why don't you call him the 'treacherous' Dundee? "

Those were two different fights, halfwit.

Ali threw three punches at most in the ten rounds he "fought" against Holmes. His performance was a disgrace.

The Ali-Frazier third fight was a completely different fight---very competitive.

Don't let that cougar catch you, halfwit.

Ali didn't throw many punches in those 10 rounds. He was THIRTY-EIGHT and starting to suffer from Parkinson's syndrome or brain damage or whatever you want to call it. 35-year-old Jim Jeffries didn't throw many punches against Jack Johnson either. Was he a disgrace and a black mark on boxing? Ali was very courageous getting pounded the way he was, but never falling and fighting on until Dundee stopped the fight. Ali never quit. Not once in his career.

marciano frazier....i didn't indicate in any way that you've said marciano was the greatest. I think referring top your "pro marciano list" is accurate...simply saying that you are one who finds the good things in his career. I have a "pro Johnny Bratton list" of my own, for example, but I don't think he was the greatest.

There's no need to feel defensive about your marciano opinions. for the most part you give good reasons for them.

but...while I'm here, i notice you didn't answer my question...what have ezzard charles or others who fought marciano told you in personal conversations about him. you'll notice my quote from ezzard was a postitive one. if you have more to add, please don't hold back.

Among heavyweights, I place Marciano near the bottom of the top 10, all-time. But he's the greatest 190-pound fighter I've seen.

Jaclem wrote:marciano frazier....i didn't indicate in any way that you've said marciano was the greatest. I think referring top your "pro marciano list" is accurate...simply saying that you are one who finds the good things in his career. I have a "pro Johnny Bratton list" of my own, for example, but I don't think he was the greatest.

There's no need to feel defensive about your marciano opinions. for the most part you give good reasons for them.

but...while I'm here, i notice you didn't answer my question...what have ezzard charles or others who fought marciano told you in personal conversations about him. you'll notice my quote from ezzard was a postitive one. if you have more to add, please don't hold back.

I've never spoken personally with Charles, or Marciano's other opponents. I've heard a lot of things they've had to say about him, but never directly talked with them.

MF..okay...just checking....(and sneaking in the needle) . this doesn't mean you don't know a lot about marciano.i have opinions on hundreds of fighters about whom I never had a personal conversation.

terap...i don't recall ezzard ever saying anything else about marciano. as I've written, he wasn't much for talking about his fights.

I think I've written all the Charles boxing related things he talked about on various threads.

there may be one more thing....during the patterson era he thought Eddie Machen showed the most promise as a potential champion...thought he had most of the skills for it.....but i don't think we discussed him later when machen didn't live up to Ezz's assessment.

This is very strange. Threads entirely unrelated to Ali regularly become Ali debates on this forum, and yet threads that are supposed to be about him suddenly become conversations about Marciano!