BoxRec

A relunctwat!

jamesmcdonnell wrote:He was making 190 before, so how can he be killing himself to make 200?

Because he has been hitting the weight room hard!!! Boy has some serious Guns now :-)

Too lazy to train properly? Not big enough to be a heavyweight, and doesn't take a shot well enough. Vitali, Vladimir etc would destroy him. FW wanted him against Harrison if he lost to Maccarinelli. Think Aud and Skelton beat him as well (not to mention Carl Thompson)

haye macca and hobson should all move up... they could be top 3 in europe

Haye-Gammer possible.

jamesmcdonnell wrote:

TerribleTerry wrote:would be interesting to see Haye dip his toe into the heavyweight pool.

Bob Foster was an absolute killer at 175lbs but up at heavy his dig was nothing like what it had been and he was summarily dismissed by Joe Frazier.

The weight difference is less for Haye but history doesnt reveal very many encouraging cases..

Yes but Frazier was only 205 lbs in his fighting prime. Haye's best weight would probably be around 210 for my money, though he will probably bulk up to 225-230. The difference is there are a lot of heavyweights who are a natural 240+ these days, with huge neck, shoulder and back musculature and the skelton to carry it, and they are I think going to be able to shrug off a lot of Haye's shots.

The trouble for haye, is that he relies on being able to hurt opponents, if he can't do that, then what? Is he going to be able to box his way to a win against a 240 lb monster? It isn't really his style.

I agree to a certain extent, James, but sometimes I feel that less is more.

I have met Tyson and Joe Frazier as well as British HW Jess Harding and Gary Mason.

They all, without exception have much bigger structures than Haye and Roman Greenberg, who I feel if he were fighting 30 years ago would weigh no more than 205, yet he weighs 240 today.

Haye and co arent bigger than Frazier etc, they just put more flesh on the bone structure, which you cannot grow. Hence the poor stamina.

One thing you cant fault Haye about is that he will fight anyone.

A welcome addition to HW, a division I feel that may prove that less is more.



I think if they were fighting today, employing todays diet and strength training, Frazier would be about 225, Ali about 235, Tyson about 230, Marciano 205 and dempsey 200

KO Artist wrote:I think if they were fighting today, employing todays diet and strength training, Frazier would be about 225, Ali about 235, Tyson about 230, Marciano 205 and dempsey 200

I'm not even sure if it's just the diet and strength training, the fact that today's HW fight 12 rounds instead of 15 must make a difference. If Marciano knew he only had to do 12 not 15 he might well come in over 200lbs. Likewise if Lennox knew there was a possiblity he'd have to do 15 hard rounds he'd probably have to come in lighter than he used to.

It's also worth remembering that alot of the guys come in quite a bit over what their best fighting weight probably is, IMO Rahams best performance was agianst Holyfield when he came in at 224lbs he's hardly ever come in under the mid 230s since and has never looked as good.

billy bessey wrote:good on him most of the people slag people off on here for taking the easy route but haye is willing to fight near on anyone and half of you are still slagging him you just cant win so what if he goes up a weight and gets banged out at least his willing to give it a go i think a good amount of k.o are due to peoples frame of mind when they enter the ring i saw him get stopped in the a.b.a by jim twite and i dont think it was anything to do with him been chinny but due to him thinking he just needed to turn up to win and the same with thompson so he never trained properly for it and thats why he lost that one not through his chin but through ill preparation and his mental attitude whereas at heavyweight he will know he has to prepare properly as he did for fragemenni so why doesnt everyone just get behind one of our lads to be willing to fight everyone rather than the tucker pudwells of this world

I don't think there are many on here that don't support Haye, i want him to win every match he has, but also i've given my honest opinion in his chances at heavy, i think he would be able to compete at British level, but even at Euro level i think he'd find it hard to beat the likes of Dimitrenko, Samil Sam or Povetkin

funso banjo baby wrote:haye macca and hobson should all move up... they could be top 3 in europe

How? With all the Russians, Krasniqi, Audley, how would they be the best heavyweights in Europe? None of them have the chin to be a great heavyweight, and only Haye has the talent to be genuinely world class at cruiserweight

J-C wrote:

KO Artist wrote:I think if they were fighting today, employing todays diet and strength training, Frazier would be about 225, Ali about 235, Tyson about 230, Marciano 205 and dempsey 200

I'm not even sure if it's just the diet and strength training, the fact that today's HW fight 12 rounds instead of 15 must make a difference. If Marciano knew he only had to do 12 not 15 he might well come in over 200lbs. Likewise if Lennox knew there was a possiblity he'd have to do 15 hard rounds he'd probably have to come in lighter than he used to.

It's also worth remembering that alot of the guys come in quite a bit over what their best fighting weight probably is, IMO Rahams best performance was agianst Holyfield when he came in at 224lbs he's hardly ever come in under the mid 230s since and has never looked as good.

Yes, I think there is definetly some truth in that. In today's era, heavyweight boxing rarely produces a fight where the protagonists throw a lot of leather, and the pace of the fights tends to be pretty genteel. Hence, the focus is on strength and bulk rather than cardiovascular fitness and flexibility.

Looking at someone like Joe Frazier or Ali, you can see they didn't do a lot of strength training. Frazier's physique was very natural, with little muscle definition and a solid bulk, rather than pumped up muscles. Someone like Ray Mercer is around Frazier's size, maybe a little bigger, but Mercer weighed in at 238 for Lewis, despite weighing around 215 early in his career, and Mercer was almost 30 when he started his professional career, so was definetly fully grown.

Modern heavyweights seem to feel compelled to add weight, despite the fact that often their best performances were when they weighed lighter.

Haye at 210 would probably be a hell of a lot better than he will at 230.

I'm sure that if he uses the training methodology of the old timers who trained for 15, he would weigh under 200 or around the 200 mark.

What Froch says In Boxing Monthly about Haye v Macca.

It's a close call but I think Haye does him. He's got greater natural talent and Is faster out of the blocks. If Lee Swaby knocked Maccrinelli out, so will Haye. That said, It's only a British title level fight. It's a poor division.

I don't know why but I took a disliking to the last bit, sounded like Froch wanted to demean this matchup and seems like he only cares about his own career.

jamesmcdonnell wrote:

J-C wrote:

KO Artist wrote:I think if they were fighting today, employing todays diet and strength training, Frazier would be about 225, Ali about 235, Tyson about 230, Marciano 205 and dempsey 200

I'm not even sure if it's just the diet and strength training, the fact that today's HW fight 12 rounds instead of 15 must make a difference. If Marciano knew he only had to do 12 not 15 he might well come in over 200lbs. Likewise if Lennox knew there was a possiblity he'd have to do 15 hard rounds he'd probably have to come in lighter than he used to.

It's also worth remembering that alot of the guys come in quite a bit over what their best fighting weight probably is, IMO Rahams best performance was agianst Holyfield when he came in at 224lbs he's hardly ever come in under the mid 230s since and has never looked as good.

Yes, I think there is definetly some truth in that. In today's era, heavyweight boxing rarely produces a fight where the protagonists throw a lot of leather, and the pace of the fights tends to be pretty genteel. Hence, the focus is on strength and bulk rather than cardiovascular fitness and flexibility.

Looking at someone like Joe Frazier or Ali, you can see they didn't do a lot of strength training. Frazier's physique was very natural, with little muscle definition and a solid bulk, rather than pumped up muscles. Someone like Ray Mercer is around Frazier's size, maybe a little bigger, but Mercer weighed in at 238 for Lewis, despite weighing around 215 early in his career, and Mercer was almost 30 when he started his professional career, so was definetly fully grown.

Modern heavyweights seem to feel compelled to add weight, despite the fact that often their best performances were when they weighed lighter.

Haye at 210 would probably be a hell of a lot better than he will at 230.

I'm sure that if he uses the training methodology of the old timers who trained for 15, he would weigh under 200 or around the 200 mark.

If he used the old timers training methodology Haye's stamina would be worse!

Froch said it's a poor division?

He does sound utterly self serving.

If Haye and Macca represent the best of the DOMESTICS, how can cruiser be poor...strange.

Bell-Mormeck 2 could be another tear up, Tokarev is a monster - coming off a 4 rd war with talented Cora Jr and a blowout of Shane Schwartz.

I used to like Cunningham but I admit he stinks. He was so bad v Wlodarczyk who I had winning by 1 point.

Still, some exciting fighters at cruiser.

Max Molyneux wrote:

jamesmcdonnell wrote:

J-C wrote: I'm not even sure if it's just the diet and strength training, the fact that today's HW fight 12 rounds instead of 15 must make a difference. If Marciano knew he only had to do 12 not 15 he might well come in over 200lbs. Likewise if Lennox knew there was a possiblity he'd have to do 15 hard rounds he'd probably have to come in lighter than he used to.

It's also worth remembering that alot of the guys come in quite a bit over what their best fighting weight probably is, IMO Rahams best performance was agianst Holyfield when he came in at 224lbs he's hardly ever come in under the mid 230s since and has never looked as good.

Yes, I think there is definetly some truth in that. In today's era, heavyweight boxing rarely produces a fight where the protagonists throw a lot of leather, and the pace of the fights tends to be pretty genteel. Hence, the focus is on strength and bulk rather than cardiovascular fitness and flexibility.

Looking at someone like Joe Frazier or Ali, you can see they didn't do a lot of strength training. Frazier's physique was very natural, with little muscle definition and a solid bulk, rather than pumped up muscles. Someone like Ray Mercer is around Frazier's size, maybe a little bigger, but Mercer weighed in at 238 for Lewis, despite weighing around 215 early in his career, and Mercer was almost 30 when he started his professional career, so was definetly fully grown.

Modern heavyweights seem to feel compelled to add weight, despite the fact that often their best performances were when they weighed lighter.

Haye at 210 would probably be a hell of a lot better than he will at 230.

I'm sure that if he uses the training methodology of the old timers who trained for 15, he would weigh under 200 or around the 200 mark.

If he used the old timers training methodology Haye's stamina would be worse!

How do you work that out then? How come Ali and Frazier were able to fight for 15 rounds at a pace that even in the quieter moments would be considered blistering by modern standards. George Foreman used to be a non stop punching machine in his prime, what modern heavyweight of note could be said to do the same, even though it is over 12 rounds.

Evander Holyfield in recent times is one of the few heavyweights I can think of who has trained for hard, fast paced fights and who exhibited the kind of stamina seen during the 'golden era.'

Here's an interesting link that I just found by the way on Evander's training regime.

http://sportsci.org/news/news9709/hatfield.html

Theres a fine balance between muscular strength and being a conditioned fighter. All things been equal the bigger stronger man wins. Holyfield, Tua, Ibeauchi, Tyson are modern fighters who are comparable to old school fighters when it comes to conditioning. Bowe had good conditioning and Lewis at 230 was pretty well conditioned.

Early Tyson and Tua perhaps, not the later over pumped versions.

Not one of those fighters could match Ali's workrate. Larry Holmes, despite always looking flabby, was always in excellent shape, and could fight at a pace which would seem electric by today's standards.

I think most of the current heavyweights out there are in piss poor shape. Vitali fought at a pretty good pace, but late on he had some stamina issues.

Lewis at 235 was quick and agile for a massive guy, but he wasn't able to fight at a sustained pace.

Holyfield in his pomp could fight at a hard pace for every round, occasionally taking a bit of a breather here or there. His first and second fights with Bowe were incredible.

jamesmcdonnell wrote:

Max Molyneux wrote:

jamesmcdonnell wrote: Yes, I think there is definetly some truth in that. In today's era, heavyweight boxing rarely produces a fight where the protagonists throw a lot of leather, and the pace of the fights tends to be pretty genteel. Hence, the focus is on strength and bulk rather than cardiovascular fitness and flexibility.

Looking at someone like Joe Frazier or Ali, you can see they didn't do a lot of strength training. Frazier's physique was very natural, with little muscle definition and a solid bulk, rather than pumped up muscles. Someone like Ray Mercer is around Frazier's size, maybe a little bigger, but Mercer weighed in at 238 for Lewis, despite weighing around 215 early in his career, and Mercer was almost 30 when he started his professional career, so was definetly fully grown.

Modern heavyweights seem to feel compelled to add weight, despite the fact that often their best performances were when they weighed lighter.

Haye at 210 would probably be a hell of a lot better than he will at 230.

I'm sure that if he uses the training methodology of the old timers who trained for 15, he would weigh under 200 or around the 200 mark.

If he used the old timers training methodology Haye's stamina would be worse!

How do you work that out then? How come Ali and Frazier were able to fight for 15 rounds at a pace that even in the quieter moments would be considered blistering by modern standards. George Foreman used to be a non stop punching machine in his prime, what modern heavyweight of note could be said to do the same, even though it is over 12 rounds.

Evander Holyfield in recent times is one of the few heavyweights I can think of who has trained for hard, fast paced fights and who exhibited the kind of stamina seen during the 'golden era.'

Here's an interesting link that I just found by the way on Evander's training regime.

http://sportsci.org/news/news9709/hatfield.html

I was talking about Haye having to make the Cruiser Limit though. Foreman gassed late In his prime.

Holyfield did not use Old Methods.

The old methods would make Haye feel even weaker from weight making.

jamesmcdonnell wrote:Early Tyson and Tua perhaps, not the later over pumped versions.

Not one of those fighters could match Ali's workrate. Larry Holmes, despite always looking flabby, was always in excellent shape, and could fight at a pace which would seem electric by today's standards.

I think most of the current heavyweights out there are in piss poor shape. Vitali fought at a pretty good pace, but late on he had some stamina issues.

Lewis at 235 was quick and agile for a massive guy, but he wasn't able to fight at a sustained pace.

Holyfield in his pomp could fight at a hard pace for every round, occasionally taking a bit of a breather here or there. His first and second fights with Bowe were incredible.

Lewis used to look in great shape up t the first McCall fight but oddly was a much better fighter when bulked up.

I'm ambivalent about Holyfield. I'm sure he's juiced at some point or other. Those muslces looked great and he was a sharp hitter, but he suffered loads of injuries and he could look effing awful - Moorer 1, Stewart 1, Adilson Rodriquez are fights where you can tell he's too stiff, when he needed fluidity.

I was talking about Haye fighting at heavyweight.

Foreman threw a hell of a lot of punches, no wonder he gassed late. His trainer (whose name I forget now), was also a bit of a weirdo, he used to dehydrate George before fights, by refusing to let him drink any water for days before a fight. Foreman said that he was often weight drained at the weigh in, which I can believe, because looking at the size of him, It's hard to believe he was under 230 for most of his fights, he was 6' 4" and had a build like the biggest modern day heavyweights.

Holyfield didn't use old training methods, this is true, but my point is that he had a work ethic, late in his career anyway, (apparently when with the Duvas he was a bastard to get to train) that puts most of the big lumbering twats in the heavyweight division to shame. Looking at his training regime, it's incredibly intense. I get the impression that a lot of modern heavyweights are just whacking weights around and going for a bit of a run, they certainly seem to fight like they do.

On another note, found my skipping rope the other day, and decided to do a bit of skipping, haven't done it since I was about 10-11 at boxing club at school. What a bleedin' shock that was, was knackered after about 30 seconds.

viciousmaussa wrote:

jamesmcdonnell wrote:Early Tyson and Tua perhaps, not the later over pumped versions.

Not one of those fighters could match Ali's workrate. Larry Holmes, despite always looking flabby, was always in excellent shape, and could fight at a pace which would seem electric by today's standards.

I think most of the current heavyweights out there are in piss poor shape. Vitali fought at a pretty good pace, but late on he had some stamina issues.

Lewis at 235 was quick and agile for a massive guy, but he wasn't able to fight at a sustained pace.

Holyfield in his pomp could fight at a hard pace for every round, occasionally taking a bit of a breather here or there. His first and second fights with Bowe were incredible.

Lewis used to look in great shape up t the first McCall fight but oddly was a much better fighter when bulked up.

I'm ambivalent about Holyfield. I'm sure he's juiced at some point or other. Those muslces looked great and he was a sharp hitter, but he suffered loads of injuries and he could look effing awful - Moorer 1, Stewart 1, Adilson Rodriquez are fights where you can tell he's too stiff, when he needed fluidity.

He was a much better fighter because he was more experienced, not because he was bulked up. Lewis learnt to control fights on the inside, and stopped leaving his chin out to dry.

Holyfield's prime as a heavyweight came quite early on, he fought on past his prime with patchy success, and was plagued with injuries of various kinds. I'm fairly sure he juiced too, but he did add weight quite gradually. He was only 205 for the first bowe fight. Evander was really pretty past it by the time of the third Bowe fight, but had more left than most of the heavyweights around him had in their primes, because he was a such a great all around fighter, blessed with an incredible chin, iron will, and compared to most of his opponents, was very fast. That he went on to destroy Tyson as he did, said more about how gone Tyson was than how near his peak Evander was. In their primes, I think Tyson would have done him up, just too fast and hard hitting, but by that stage Tyson's will to fight a hard fight wasn't there any more.

Evander was always a fighter whose career went in spurts. He was looking great in the late 80s (vs Dokes, McDonagh), then went flat as a pancake after winning the title (his so called peak - struggles to beat Cooper, Holmes & Foreman), lost to the 1st serious challenger (Bowe), summoned a fierce effort in the rematch.

At heavy Holy's always been fits and starts and IMO the Tyson win was merely another 'rejuvenation'. Holy was sharp vs Tyson and Moorer, in fact before Bowe 3 he was good vs Mercer.

Holy;s career is very much like Azumah Nelson. Once he got past his prime he would burn brightly, 'blow out', then come back.


Makes you wonder how much even better Lennox could've been if he'd kept slender under Steward.

Heavyweights are putting weight on thinking they can excite with heavier shots because crowds wants to see huge punches and the crowds these days seem to prefer a Hatton like style to good ol counter punching.

They just don't realise what the weights doing to them though It seems.

viciousmaussa wrote:Evander was always a fighter whose career went in spurts. He was looking great in the late 80s (vs Dokes, McDonagh), then went flat as a pancake after winning the title (his so called peak - struggles to beat Cooper, Holmes & Foreman), lost to the 1st serious challenger (Bowe), summoned a fierce effort in the rematch.

At heavy Holy's always been fits and starts and IMO the Tyson win was merely another 'rejuvenation'. Holy was sharp vs Tyson and Moorer, in fact before Bowe 3 he was good vs Mercer.

Holy;s career is very much like Azumah Nelson. Once he got past his prime he would burn brightly, 'blow out', then come back.


Makes you wonder how much even better Lennox could've been if he'd kept slender under Steward.

The biggest Heavyweights always beat Holyfield like Bowe and Lewis.

So how come Holyfield beat Bowe in the rematch then? He also did better against Lewis in their second fight. Most of the guys he fought were naturally bigger men, so of course he was up against it, but Holyfield could hold his own with even the biggest heavyweights. Lewis didn't really dominate him in either fight per se, and Bowe always had problems with holyfield's work rate. In their third fight, Bowe was absolutely out of it in his own corner for almost a whole round, but there was something badly wrong with Holyfield, whether it was a shoulder injury, a hole in heart, god knows, but something was seriously up with him that night, because for two rounds he was boxing Bowe's ears off, and then hardly threw a shot for the whole night after that, except for that mammoth left hook which dumped Bowe like a sack of shit.

Ruddock, Golota and Akinwande would've troubled Holyfield as well.