Do you really believe this? Can you picture Tyson ever being dropped by Archie Moore or Jersey Joe Walcott? Can you picture Ezzard Charles trading punches with Tyson? If you can, then you are judging this fight with sentimentality and not common sense.Tyson was not tougher than Marciano
You truly believe anyone Marcaino beat was as dangerous as Tyson?,other than Holmes (past his best) who did Mike beat as good as Rocky?
Do you truly believe Marciano would have been pushed /punched over by Kevin Mcbride? or how about Marciano being overwhelmed by a journeyman like Danny Wilson? Before you say "Wait Mike was old by then" ,i have to say im judging Mike AND ROCKY OVER THEIR ENTIRE CAREERS,theone wrote:Do you really believe this? Can you picture Tyson ever being dropped by Archie Moore or Jersey Joe Walcott? Can you picture Ezzard Charles trading punches with Tyson? If you can, then you are judging this fight with sentimentality and not common sense.Tyson was not tougher than MarcianoYou truly believe anyone Marcaino beat was as dangerous as Tyson?,other than Holmes (past his best) who did Mike beat as good as Rocky?
Dude, that doesnt make any kind of sense. you judge by thier prime; when the fighter was at his absolute best. Judging it this the way you are Walcott and Charles are both mediocre fighters with 32 losses between them, so Marciano beating them was no big deal. And hey, Ali musnt have been so great if Berbick and Leon Spinks both defeated him! Ridiculous.Do you truly believe Marciano would have been pushed /punched over by Kevin Mcbride? or how about Marciano being overwhelmed by a journeyman like Danny Wilson? Before you say "Wait Mike was old by then" ,i have to say im judging Mike AND ROCKY OVER THEIR ENTIRE CAREERS,
Holyfield is also 6'2 and always had a heavywieght frame and reach. Theres no way of telling how Marciano would have fought with extra muscle on his compact frame. He probably wouldnt have been able to adjust. His skin wouldnt have gotten any tougher either.Two relentless fighters like them going at it the bigger, stronger, tougher and much faster of the two would prevail. And thats Tyson.If you read my earlier posts I admit Marciano never fought anyone with the intensity of a young Mike but Mike never fought anyone with the relentlessness of Rocky.
I never said Walcott was a journyman, although for much of his early career he appeared one. And no, even if he landed the best punch of his life I dont believe Walcott would drop Tyson.You talk of Walcott as if he was a journeyman,YES! if he caught Tyson right he could go , why is it possible for a solid journey man like Quick Tillis to take Tyson in to the later rounds but not Marciano?
Tillis didnt give the 16 fight veteran near the trouble that Roland La Straza gave Marciano in his 26th fight. Of course now you will inform that Lastraza was a monster talent who would have wiped the floor with Tillis.
And do you understand anything about differring styles? Tillis did not fight like Marciano. Hes taller rangier and did not come straight at Tyson like Marciano would.Please name a fighter Ezzard beat that was bigger and was as skilled as Tyson. I dare you to naem just one.Ezzard Charles beat far bigger guys than TysonALOT of people beat Valdes. Lesser fighter than Moore did too. Not such a great feat really.Archie Moore took on and beat The 6.3 215pound dangerous Nino Valdes.
Marciano was fighting now his training regime might have been like Hollyfields ,a former CRUISERWEIGHT who hammered Tyson.
Size is the only advantage Valuev has over Lewis and Tyson. Marciano has no physical advantages over Tyson whats so ever. Before the intangibles like heart or will come into play he would be out of there.Yes Tyson was bigger than Marciano ,but that doesnt mean anything ,would you bet on Valuev to beat Lennox Lewis or Tyson?
Your contributions are getting more fun to read all the time. Once again I think you have mapped out the sensible road in this discussion. You sure your feelin OK barry?barry wrote:theone and I often disagree, but in my opinion he is pretty spot on in this debate!
So many people want to look at these types of debates will the mindset of, well this guy beat that guy, or that guy never beat anyone as good as this guy, or this guy beat the fighter who beat that guy, and all that that is fine and dandy, but it has no bearing whatsoever in a fight between two men because every fight is different and a fighter will fighter every opponent different than the last...and for the record...early Tyson fought some high quality, very, very good competition and if you think he didn't then you really just do not know much about the fighters he fought and no doubt have watched little to none of they're career's, which I am not saying that as an insult, or to piss anyone off as it was not directed at anyone in particular!
Also, people, the post-jail Tyson was not the same as the pre-jail Tyson. He certainly was not the Tyson everyone loved to watch and the Tyson who lost to McBride and Danny Williams was about 15+ years past his prime and it's kind of silly even mentioning those bouts, or even his bouts with Lewis and Holyfield when talking about all-time fights because none, absolutely none of those fights were even close to "best" Tyson and the last two losses, well they are nothing...they mean nothing to Tyson's all-time standing. At his best Tyson had quite possibly the fastest hands in heavyweight history, he had a very solid defense, he had very solid skills and used the jab with his bob-and-weave style very well. He had crippling power with either hand and was very, very durable with a very solid chin, which we all saw with the beatings he took from Douglas and Holyfield. The early Tyson did not get discouraged in the kind of manner that most are use to seeing. He did not stop and was said to have been greatly discouraged by the likes of James Tillis, Micth Green, Bonecrusher Smith and Tony Tucker, but you know what, for someone who supposedly had so much trouble and who was so discouraged by those fighters Tyson won just about every single round against all four of those guys…that’s pretty clear and pretty impressive for someone that supposedly had so much trouble!
Could Tyson stop Marciano…I don’t know, but what I do know is that Tyson would have just as good a chance to beat and stop Marciano as anyone else would!
Tyson has always fought people who had better reach than himselfe. He could beat Marciano with his excelente jab alone. Which doesn't mean that he can't tear Marcianos head off. But that would be the first time the other guy had nothing on him. He could do whatever he wanted in my oppinion...IrishRufusMurphy wrote:Cultus....Marciano had the shortest reach of any HW champion in history. Virtually EVERYONE he faced had a much longer reach than him. What makes you conclude that Tyson, just because of his reach, could beat Marcino?
Willard had a much longer reach over Dempsey. did not mean shit.
Terell had a reach as well over Ali. did not mean shit, Ali hit him at will.
Reach doesn't mean everything.
Moore was an old man.. and you really believe he had half the power Tyson carried ... also he was quite small as he was light heavy most of his career. I don't see your reasoning. You think heart could have carried him trough?... coman imagine Tyson poping combination on a smaller Marciano that would probably KD him often by share force. Im not knocking off Marciano .. and I give him credit .. but I see the case here being sympathy over logic.IrishRufusMurphy wrote:Tyson, despite all his attributes, went the distance with many a guy who didn't have the abilities of Moore, Charles, Walcott or even an older Joe Louis. Tyson liked to be the guy who gave opponents pressure, he didn't like to be pressured himself. He could dish it out, but couldn't really take it.
Sure Tyson has a chance to knock out Marciano, but Marciano was relentless, he punched non-stop, never took a step back, absorbed everything that was thrown at him, and was deceptively defensive (blocked most shots with his arms, elbows, and bobbed and weaved away).
I've seen people on here knock Marciano for being dropped by Moore and Walcott, but you have to remember the count was 4 against Walcott and 2 against Archie. And it was HOF guys who knocked him down. Tyson was knocked out by Buster Douglas and got shook up at times against Frank Bruno and couldn't stop Bonecrusher Smith.
Marciano's toughness was from his conditioning, and with his great belief in himself, I think he would have sucked up whatever Tyson had to offer and kept going on; while Tyson would see it would be no easy task to stop Marciano, break down mentally and then get broken up from the inside from Marciano's pure blunt force trauma adrenaline packed punches.
Yeah but nobody ever uses the Moore victory to justify Ali's greatness. Take away the Moore fight from Ali's resume and it means nothing.The bullshit is, people judge Marciano for fighting Moore cause he was too old, yet nobody bitches and complains and moans and denies Ali when he fought Moore. All anyone can say over that is that Ali beat his first genuine test as a HW. Utter bullshit and completly biased. Moore was nine years older than Rocky, but was 20 years older than Ali---yet nobody says anything bad about Ali fighting him.
IrishRufusMurphy wrote:I ain't saying Moore was anywhere near the level of Tyson's power, but with over 140 kayos on his regimen, I don't see him being some daisy either. Have you ever heard of someone getting caught? It happens every damn day in boxing. Marciano wasn't that small of a guy ffs. He trained down to 187 pounds, he wasn't a natural 187.
And I get so fuckin tired of hearing people say Moore was an old man when Marciano faced him. Moore would go on to hold the LHW title for almost another half decade after his loss to Marciano and was still ranked decently as a HW up until he retired.
The bullshit is, people judge Marciano for fighting Moore cause he was too old, yet nobody bitches and complains and moans and denies Ali when he fought Moore. All anyone can say over that is that Ali beat his first genuine test as a HW. Utter bullshit and completly biased. Moore was nine years older than Rocky, but was 20 years older than Ali---yet nobody says anything bad about Ali fighting him.
Nothing at all wrong with it. My point is that everyone says Marciano fought an old Archie Moore, when Archie held onto the LHW title another 5 or 6 yrs and was still a genuine contender for the HW crown when he fought Ali. But nobody ever takes it out on Ali for fighting a man well over 40.What's wrong with an upcoming prospect fighting a guy who was "still ranked decently as a HW"?
