BoxRec

Tyson was not tougher than Marciano

Do you really believe this? Can you picture Tyson ever being dropped by Archie Moore or Jersey Joe Walcott? Can you picture Ezzard Charles trading punches with Tyson? If you can, then you are judging this fight with sentimentality and not common sense.

,other than Holmes (past his best) who did Mike beat as good as Rocky?

You truly believe anyone Marcaino beat was as dangerous as Tyson?

theone wrote:

Tyson was not tougher than Marciano

Do you really believe this? Can you picture Tyson ever being dropped by Archie Moore or Jersey Joe Walcott? Can you picture Ezzard Charles trading punches with Tyson? If you can, then you are judging this fight with sentimentality and not common sense.

,other than Holmes (past his best) who did Mike beat as good as Rocky?

You truly believe anyone Marcaino beat was as dangerous as Tyson?

Do you truly believe Marciano would have been pushed /punched over by Kevin Mcbride? or how about Marciano being overwhelmed by a journeyman like Danny Wilson? Before you say "Wait Mike was old by then" ,i have to say im judging Mike AND ROCKY OVER THEIR ENTIRE CAREERS,
If you read my earlier posts I admit Marciano never fought anyone with the intensity of a young Mike but Mike never fought anyone with the relentlessness of Rocky. You talk of Walcott as if he was a journeyman,YES! if he caught Tyson right he could go , why is it possible for a solid journey man like Quick Tillis to take Tyson in to the later rounds but not Marciano? Ezzard Charles beat far bigger guys than Tyson and Archie Moore took on and beat The 6.3 215pound dangerous Nino Valdes. Im not sentimental about Marciano and do not think he is the greatest,what im trying to do is look over both their entire careers,if Marciano was fighting now his training regime might have been like Hollyfields ,a former CRUISERWEIGHT who hammered Tyson. Marciano beat a few alltime greats who had seen better days in Louis ,moore,Charles and Walcott ,who did Tyson beat? the greats he fought apart from Holmes he lost to (Lewis ,Hollyfield). Im not saying Tyson was crap,he was tremendously exciting and dangerous in his early years but after he split with Rooney he never seemed the same,do you think Brian Nielson would have gone 6 rounds with Rocky?

Do you truly believe Marciano would have been pushed /punched over by Kevin Mcbride? or how about Marciano being overwhelmed by a journeyman like Danny Wilson? Before you say "Wait Mike was old by then" ,i have to say im judging Mike AND ROCKY OVER THEIR ENTIRE CAREERS,

Dude, that doesnt make any kind of sense. you judge by thier prime; when the fighter was at his absolute best. Judging it this the way you are Walcott and Charles are both mediocre fighters with 32 losses between them, so Marciano beating them was no big deal. And hey, Ali musnt have been so great if Berbick and Leon Spinks both defeated him! Ridiculous.

If you read my earlier posts I admit Marciano never fought anyone with the intensity of a young Mike but Mike never fought anyone with the relentlessness of Rocky.

Two relentless fighters like them going at it the bigger, stronger, tougher and much faster of the two would prevail. And thats Tyson.

You talk of Walcott as if he was a journeyman,YES! if he caught Tyson right he could go , why is it possible for a solid journey man like Quick Tillis to take Tyson in to the later rounds but not Marciano?

I never said Walcott was a journyman, although for much of his early career he appeared one. And no, even if he landed the best punch of his life I dont believe Walcott would drop Tyson.

Tillis didnt give the 16 fight veteran near the trouble that Roland La Straza gave Marciano in his 26th fight. Of course now you will inform that Lastraza was a monster talent who would have wiped the floor with Tillis.

And do you understand anything about differring styles? Tillis did not fight like Marciano. Hes taller rangier and did not come straight at Tyson like Marciano would.

Ezzard Charles beat far bigger guys than Tyson

Please name a fighter Ezzard beat that was bigger and was as skilled as Tyson. I dare you to naem just one.

Archie Moore took on and beat The 6.3 215pound dangerous Nino Valdes.

ALOT of people beat Valdes. Lesser fighter than Moore did too. Not such a great feat really.

Marciano was fighting now his training regime might have been like Hollyfields ,a former CRUISERWEIGHT who hammered Tyson.

Holyfield is also 6'2 and always had a heavywieght frame and reach. Theres no way of telling how Marciano would have fought with extra muscle on his compact frame. He probably wouldnt have been able to adjust. His skin wouldnt have gotten any tougher either.

Please name a fighter Ezzard beat that was bigger and was as skilled as Tyson. I dare you to naem just one. (quote)

How about Joe Louis who weighed 218 to Charles 184 ? he had won his last 32 fights and was top ranked heavyweight.

(quote)
Tillis didnt give the 16 fight veteran near the trouble that Roland La Straza gave Marciano in his 26th fight. Of course now you will inform that Lastraza was a monster talent who would have wiped the floor with Tillis. (end quote)


Thats because LA STARZA was a better fighter than Tillis.La Starza was an unbeaten fighter and up and coming where Tillis was on the slide and had been beaten by a few contenders by the time they fought Marciano and Tyson respectively.

(quote)I never said Walcott was a journyman, although for much of his early career he appeared one. And no, even if he landed the best punch of his life I dont believe Walcott would drop Tyson.


Tillis didnt give the 16 fight veteran near the trouble that Roland La Straza gave Marciano in his 26th fight. Of course now you will inform that Lastraza was a monster talent who would have wiped the floor with Tillis.

And do you understand anything about differring styles? Tillis did not fight like Marciano. Hes taller rangier and did not come straight at Tyson like Marciano would. (end quote)

As you say differing styles , Tysons style is nearer enough to Marcianos for Walcott to get a ton of leaverage when counter punching to floor tyson.Ezzard Charles had only been stopped onece in 77 fights before Walcott k.od him for the title and had faced the best Heavyweights and light heavys in the world, so I think he had a chance of flooring anyone if he connected cleanly.

Holyfield is also 6'2 and always had a heavywieght frame and reach. Theres no way of telling how Marciano would have fought with extra muscle on his compact frame. He probably wouldnt have been able to adjust. His skin wouldnt have gotten any tougher either.(quote)

You might have something here to be fair ,Hollyfield was taller so maybe Marciano wouldnt have carried the extra weight but as you say there is no telling and although Marciano did get cut up he never was stopped on cuts was he? Dont really want this to become a tit for tat argument ,It's possible Mike would have smashed the Rock out of there as I said earlier I used to be firmly in this group of people who believed Tyson could have beat any guy outside of Ali and Louis but having studied older fighters like Charles ,Marciano ect. I feel many modern fight fans ( im not saying you!) think these old guys are turkeys and fighters like Mike would walk through them,Tyson ,when looked at retrospectively will be remembered as a incredibly exciting fighter who dominated the division in his early years but his middle and end period showed a guy who would quit when guys fought back,showing a weaker mental strength than the other all time greats. Yes Tyson was bigger than Marciano ,but that doesnt mean anything ,would you bet on Valuev to beat Lennox Lewis or Tyson?

Yes Tyson was bigger than Marciano ,but that doesnt mean anything ,would you bet on Valuev to beat Lennox Lewis or Tyson?

Size is the only advantage Valuev has over Lewis and Tyson. Marciano has no physical advantages over Tyson whats so ever. Before the intangibles like heart or will come into play he would be out of there.

OK MATE ,LETS BEG TO DIFFER

Actually, lets agree to disagree.

AGREED !

theone and I often disagree, but in my opinion he is pretty spot on in this debate!

So many people want to look at these types of debates will the mindset of, well this guy beat that guy, or that guy never beat anyone as good as this guy, or this guy beat the fighter who beat that guy, and all that that is fine and dandy, but it has no bearing whatsoever in a fight between two men because every fight is different and a fighter will fighter every opponent different than the last...and for the record...early Tyson fought some high quality, very, very good competition and if you think he didn't then you really just do not know much about the fighters he fought and no doubt have watched little to none of they're career's, which I am not saying that as an insult, or to piss anyone off as it was not directed at anyone in particular!

Also, people, the post-jail Tyson was not the same as the pre-jail Tyson. He certainly was not the Tyson everyone loved to watch and the Tyson who lost to McBride and Danny Williams was about 15+ years past his prime and it's kind of silly even mentioning those bouts, or even his bouts with Lewis and Holyfield when talking about all-time fights because none, absolutely none of those fights were even close to "best" Tyson and the last two losses, well they are nothing...they mean nothing to Tyson's all-time standing. At his best Tyson had quite possibly the fastest hands in heavyweight history, he had a very solid defense, he had very solid skills and used the jab with his bob-and-weave style very well. He had crippling power with either hand and was very, very durable with a very solid chin, which we all saw with the beatings he took from Douglas and Holyfield. The early Tyson did not get discouraged in the kind of manner that most are use to seeing. He did not stop and was said to have been greatly discouraged by the likes of James Tillis, Micth Green, Bonecrusher Smith and Tony Tucker, but you know what, for someone who supposedly had so much trouble and who was so discouraged by those fighters Tyson won just about every single round against all four of those guys…that’s pretty clear and pretty impressive for someone that supposedly had so much trouble!

Could Tyson stop Marciano…I don’t know, but what I do know is that Tyson would have just as good a chance to beat and stop Marciano as anyone else would!

Tyson could have hit Rocky at will .. and peak Tyson had tons of heart and focus.

Tyson had a better reach than Marciano. Think about that.

theone and I often disagree, but in my opinion he is pretty spot on in this debate!

Personally Barry, Ive agreed with your opinons alot more often than not; Ive even learned quite a bit from reading your posts. However I dont think it seems that way because when we disagree, we REALLY disagree.

barry wrote:theone and I often disagree, but in my opinion he is pretty spot on in this debate!

So many people want to look at these types of debates will the mindset of, well this guy beat that guy, or that guy never beat anyone as good as this guy, or this guy beat the fighter who beat that guy, and all that that is fine and dandy, but it has no bearing whatsoever in a fight between two men because every fight is different and a fighter will fighter every opponent different than the last...and for the record...early Tyson fought some high quality, very, very good competition and if you think he didn't then you really just do not know much about the fighters he fought and no doubt have watched little to none of they're career's, which I am not saying that as an insult, or to piss anyone off as it was not directed at anyone in particular!

Also, people, the post-jail Tyson was not the same as the pre-jail Tyson. He certainly was not the Tyson everyone loved to watch and the Tyson who lost to McBride and Danny Williams was about 15+ years past his prime and it's kind of silly even mentioning those bouts, or even his bouts with Lewis and Holyfield when talking about all-time fights because none, absolutely none of those fights were even close to "best" Tyson and the last two losses, well they are nothing...they mean nothing to Tyson's all-time standing. At his best Tyson had quite possibly the fastest hands in heavyweight history, he had a very solid defense, he had very solid skills and used the jab with his bob-and-weave style very well. He had crippling power with either hand and was very, very durable with a very solid chin, which we all saw with the beatings he took from Douglas and Holyfield. The early Tyson did not get discouraged in the kind of manner that most are use to seeing. He did not stop and was said to have been greatly discouraged by the likes of James Tillis, Micth Green, Bonecrusher Smith and Tony Tucker, but you know what, for someone who supposedly had so much trouble and who was so discouraged by those fighters Tyson won just about every single round against all four of those guys…that’s pretty clear and pretty impressive for someone that supposedly had so much trouble!

Could Tyson stop Marciano…I don’t know, but what I do know is that Tyson would have just as good a chance to beat and stop Marciano as anyone else would!

Your contributions are getting more fun to read all the time. Once again I think you have mapped out the sensible road in this discussion. You sure your feelin OK barry?

Cultus....Marciano had the shortest reach of any HW champion in history. Virtually EVERYONE he faced had a much longer reach than him. What makes you conclude that Tyson, just because of his reach, could beat Marcino?

Willard had a much longer reach over Dempsey. did not mean shit.
Terell had a reach as well over Ali. did not mean shit, Ali hit him at will.

Reach doesn't mean everything.

IrishRufusMurphy wrote:Cultus....Marciano had the shortest reach of any HW champion in history. Virtually EVERYONE he faced had a much longer reach than him. What makes you conclude that Tyson, just because of his reach, could beat Marcino?

Willard had a much longer reach over Dempsey. did not mean shit.
Terell had a reach as well over Ali. did not mean shit, Ali hit him at will.

Reach doesn't mean everything.

Tyson has always fought people who had better reach than himselfe. He could beat Marciano with his excelente jab alone. Which doesn't mean that he can't tear Marcianos head off. But that would be the first time the other guy had nothing on him. He could do whatever he wanted in my oppinion...

Dempsey was explosive and fast on his feet.. like Tyson in a way. That's why it's not as crucial. He could deliver his boms fast.Marciano wasn't that fast - he needed to sail his carrier into a position and hope the other guy stands like a tree. He got he's stuff done like chopping down a tree.

Tyson, despite all his attributes, went the distance with many a guy who didn't have the abilities of Moore, Charles, Walcott or even an older Joe Louis. Tyson liked to be the guy who gave opponents pressure, he didn't like to be pressured himself. He could dish it out, but couldn't really take it.

Sure Tyson has a chance to knock out Marciano, but Marciano was relentless, he punched non-stop, never took a step back, absorbed everything that was thrown at him, and was deceptively defensive (blocked most shots with his arms, elbows, and bobbed and weaved away).

I've seen people on here knock Marciano for being dropped by Moore and Walcott, but you have to remember the count was 4 against Walcott and 2 against Archie. And it was HOF guys who knocked him down. Tyson was knocked out by Buster Douglas and got shook up at times against Frank Bruno and couldn't stop Bonecrusher Smith.

Marciano's toughness was from his conditioning, and with his great belief in himself, I think he would have sucked up whatever Tyson had to offer and kept going on; while Tyson would see it would be no easy task to stop Marciano, break down mentally and then get broken up from the inside from Marciano's pure blunt force trauma adrenaline packed punches.

IrishRufusMurphy wrote:Tyson, despite all his attributes, went the distance with many a guy who didn't have the abilities of Moore, Charles, Walcott or even an older Joe Louis. Tyson liked to be the guy who gave opponents pressure, he didn't like to be pressured himself. He could dish it out, but couldn't really take it.

Sure Tyson has a chance to knock out Marciano, but Marciano was relentless, he punched non-stop, never took a step back, absorbed everything that was thrown at him, and was deceptively defensive (blocked most shots with his arms, elbows, and bobbed and weaved away).

I've seen people on here knock Marciano for being dropped by Moore and Walcott, but you have to remember the count was 4 against Walcott and 2 against Archie. And it was HOF guys who knocked him down. Tyson was knocked out by Buster Douglas and got shook up at times against Frank Bruno and couldn't stop Bonecrusher Smith.

Marciano's toughness was from his conditioning, and with his great belief in himself, I think he would have sucked up whatever Tyson had to offer and kept going on; while Tyson would see it would be no easy task to stop Marciano, break down mentally and then get broken up from the inside from Marciano's pure blunt force trauma adrenaline packed punches.

Moore was an old man.. and you really believe he had half the power Tyson carried ... also he was quite small as he was light heavy most of his career. I don't see your reasoning. You think heart could have carried him trough?... coman imagine Tyson poping combination on a smaller Marciano that would probably KD him often by share force. Im not knocking off Marciano .. and I give him credit .. but I see the case here being sympathy over logic.

I ain't saying Moore was anywhere near the level of Tyson's power, but with over 140 kayos on his regimen, I don't see him being some daisy either. Have you ever heard of someone getting caught? It happens every damn day in boxing. Marciano wasn't that small of a guy ffs. He trained down to 187 pounds, he wasn't a natural 187.

And I get so fuckin tired of hearing people say Moore was an old man when Marciano faced him. Moore would go on to hold the LHW title for almost another half decade after his loss to Marciano and was still ranked decently as a HW up until he retired.

The bullshit is, people judge Marciano for fighting Moore cause he was too old, yet nobody bitches and complains and moans and denies Ali when he fought Moore. All anyone can say over that is that Ali beat his first genuine test as a HW. Utter bullshit and completly biased. Moore was nine years older than Rocky, but was 20 years older than Ali---yet nobody says anything bad about Ali fighting him.

The bullshit is, people judge Marciano for fighting Moore cause he was too old, yet nobody bitches and complains and moans and denies Ali when he fought Moore. All anyone can say over that is that Ali beat his first genuine test as a HW. Utter bullshit and completly biased. Moore was nine years older than Rocky, but was 20 years older than Ali---yet nobody says anything bad about Ali fighting him.

Yeah but nobody ever uses the Moore victory to justify Ali's greatness. Take away the Moore fight from Ali's resume and it means nothing.

Take away the Moore victory from Marcianos resume and it gets much harder to try to justify how great some people think he was.

IrishRufusMurphy wrote:I ain't saying Moore was anywhere near the level of Tyson's power, but with over 140 kayos on his regimen, I don't see him being some daisy either. Have you ever heard of someone getting caught? It happens every damn day in boxing. Marciano wasn't that small of a guy ffs. He trained down to 187 pounds, he wasn't a natural 187.

And I get so fuckin tired of hearing people say Moore was an old man when Marciano faced him. Moore would go on to hold the LHW title for almost another half decade after his loss to Marciano and was still ranked decently as a HW up until he retired.

The bullshit is, people judge Marciano for fighting Moore cause he was too old, yet nobody bitches and complains and moans and denies Ali when he fought Moore. All anyone can say over that is that Ali beat his first genuine test as a HW. Utter bullshit and completly biased. Moore was nine years older than Rocky, but was 20 years older than Ali---yet nobody says anything bad about Ali fighting him.

I see you you are still letting your hatred of Ali get in the way of logic, Rupert.

You say Moore was "still ranked decently as a HW up until he retired" then start bitching and whining about Ali fighting him.

What's wrong with an upcoming prospect fighting a guy who was "still ranked decently as a HW"?

>>>Yeah but nobody ever uses the Moore victory to justify Ali's greatness. Take away the Moore fight from Ali's resume and it means nothing. Take away the Moore victory from Marcianos resume and it gets much harder to try to justify how great some people think he was.<<<

Couldn't have said it any better, nor does it get any more truthful and logical than what you stated. Take Moore out of Ali's record and no one even notices it...at all...take Moore out of Marciano's record and one of the Rock's three best opponents is gone. And for the record...Moore was an old man when Rocky fought him...at least 40 years old, sorry, but that is not a good age for a boxer and regardless of what Moore continued to accomplish...his prime was around 1945...a good ten years before he fought Marciano...it's not like he was all of a sudden just old for Ali...he was old for Marciano as well!!!

What's wrong with an upcoming prospect fighting a guy who was "still ranked decently as a HW"?

Nothing at all wrong with it. My point is that everyone says Marciano fought an old Archie Moore, when Archie held onto the LHW title another 5 or 6 yrs and was still a genuine contender for the HW crown when he fought Ali. But nobody ever takes it out on Ali for fighting a man well over 40.

Sure I can agree, even if Ali never fought Moore, that it wouldn't take anything away from Ali's greatness---but then again Marciano didn't even wanna fight Moore in the first place, but opted to do so anyways.

What I'm saying is, had Marciano of went on fighting is there really any doubt that he wouldn't have beaten the Bakers, the Jacksons, the Valdes', and the Pattersons? There simply was no one left out there to give him a decent fight, with arguably the young not yet at his peak Sonny Liston.

Had he have done so, would Marciano be considered greater than he is considered today? I imagine so. But what was the point? The 49-0 has stood for over fifty years. And nobody has really ever came close, except for Holmes and Valuev---and both men can arguably be knocked against because of their eras being so crappy and them getting so slow, yet everyone wants to pick apart Marciano's era and opponents.

>>>But nobody ever takes it out on Ali for fighting a man well over 40.<<<

That's because Ali does not have to rely on his win with Moore to validate his career!!!

Ali has two fights with Liston, three fights with Frazier, three fights with Norton, Foreman, two fights with Patterson, Quarry, Terrell, Ellis, Bonavena, Chuvalo, two fights with Cooper, Williams, Folley, Lyle, Shavers, Foster, Mathis...and several others to validate his career.

It would very silly to try to criticize Ali for his fight with Moore when his resume is loaded with great opponents like no other heavyweight in history. Now if Moore was one of the three best fighters that Ali ever faced, then yeah...he would deserve criticism, but his record is so validated without Moore that it's really senseless to even mention it!!!!

Do you really think that Rocky Marciano would've let Buster Douglas outbox him, or quit against Holyfield?

Douglas that night would have most likely outboxed Marciano even easier than he did Tyson. Quit against Holyfield? Hell no,but he would have got stopped nontheless.