BoxRec

Posted: **08 Feb 2007, 15:22**

stujones wrote:So lets get this right Simpsons,

Kostya vs Hatton - 2005 - Generally regarded as won of the fights of the year.
Hatton vs Maussa - 2005 - Sky's Ko of the year.
Hatton vs Collazo - 2006 - One of the fights of the year.
Hatton vs Urango - 2007 - Stinker yes, but please lets not compare Hatton and Witter in terms of excitement value.

Hardly boring bullshit there. .

1. Top fight but not near fight of the year material
2. Sorry this was a clumsy fight and clumsy KO
3. Good fight yes but Hattons limitations were exposed
4. Stinker, Hatton ran from Urango - if were going to say Witter ran from Judah lets be fair. Hatton went 1 step beyond and Ruizs jab and grab to invent the sweet grab and grab andn ot engage whatsoever. In fairness I think Urangos a physical beast. Witter had the most exciting fight that night though.

Calling Witter boring is an excuse to not make Hatton-Witter - how can 1 of the biggest hitters at 140 be boring if someone presses him? When anyone briongs a fight to Witter and doesn't go into a shell he makes an exciting fight - see Ndou, Lauri (who Witter finnished far quicker than the supposedly more exciting Hatton).

Posted: **08 Feb 2007, 15:27**

Wrists wrote:Interesting one this.

For me Naz's resume is criminally under rated because people choose to take the easy road and criticise because of the Barrera fight and also because of his antics since then.

Ricky - I have the ultimate respect for, great guy, no frills, straight up and he gave us Brits one their best nights when he beat Kosta, but for me the quality of opponent in comparison to Naz (Tyszu aside) is not up to the mark.

Naz fought, beat and KO'd the vast majority of the following:

Kevin Kelley - 1 defeat in 50 going in good Ko ratio and Naz despite having bad moments sparked him inside 4 rounds.

Tom Johnson - at the time universally rated as the best feather in the world, Ring Magazine (who the majority seem to think have the best ratings) had Boom Boom at No.1, what happened Naz KO'd in 8

Wilfredo Vasquez - again universally rated as top 3/4 feather at the time, Naz KO 7, I will accept the argument that he was past his best, still a good win nonetheless

Paul Ingle - unbeaten hungry fighter on the up, Naz apart from 2 shaky rounds (9 & 10) dominated the fight with 3 knockdowns and a lovely 1 shot KO

Manuel Medina - still relatively in his prime, KO'd in 11 with Naz suffering from a cold, not an excuse you could hear it in the post fight interview.

Augie Sanchez - before you all scoff, this guy was a huge puncher who (if you visited Kronk Gym website) Manny Steward said was a big threat 12 months prior to this fight happening, result clean, brutal KO in 4

Bungu - before the fight everyone said 'ooh tough test' , 'never been stopped' - result thanks for coming NAZ KO 4.

Ok ok I may have been a tad one sided but to me Naz's dance card, Kelley, Medina, Johnson, Bungu, Robinson, Badillo, Ingle, McCullough, Belcastro (remember this was Naz's 12th pro fight) is much better than Tackie, Oliveria, Phillips, Stewart, Maussa, Collazo

Of course the one undisputable fact is that Naz twatted up his big test against MAB whereas Ricky stepped up. The question is does one fight make someone's legacy? No.

People on here too often overlook the fact that Naz bragged a bit and was a bit of a tool whereas good old Ricky enters shit shirt competitions and likes drinking in the local etc etc etc and use that as justificatio for his career whereas Naz likes the porsches, was a bit big headed therefore is the devil incarnate.

If this is judged on career alone for me Naz proved more than Ricky (so far).

If Ricky beats Castillo convinceingly (comparable to Kevin kelley, good record in his 30s) then FIGHTS a Cotto or a Mayweather than thats good enough for me

Ricky is not a joke but lets not forget Hamed who put more bums on seats and created more new boxing fans than any british boxer ever

Regards

Wrists

Good post, Naz completely cleared out 126, beat every champ except Espinosa and he beat the man who beat Espinosa - some very good near great fighters - but none that were truly considered elite. Bungu could have been considered no1 at 122 with a better resume than Barrera at that weight. Vazquez was a 3division champ, which I'm not sure how that can't make him elite? Johnson no1 at 126, Kelly considered near elite. Hamed did screw up the Barrera fight after been just too cocky - it was a fight he could have won.

I think Nazs world was shattered when he lost to Barrera because he truly believed he was invinsable. He said Barrera wasn't the best fighter he'd faced prior to the fight and he thought he'd KO him easily.

Posted: **08 Feb 2007, 15:57**

Luis Espinosa was considered the #1 Featherweight when Hamed fought Robinson. He was certainly #1 in Boxing Monthly and I also think in Boxing News.

Wilfredo Vasquez WAS an elite fighter - but was so shot it was unbelievable. Get his fight on the undercard of Holyfield vs Moorer II. Made the Urango vs Rabah fight seem fair.

Tom Johnson - Not bad win undoubtedly, but fading - lucky to beat Jose Baddilo and was looking increasingly vulnerable. What happend to him after - lost to Charles Sheppard thats what happend.

Paul Ingle - Yeah, had there been a rematch was Ingle was more mature then yes it could have been considered an elite win. Paul seem to be heading that way. However, was KD everytime he stepped into world class even vs the Light punching Medina. Two ways of interpreting the fight, either your way - or the way I view as a fantastic effort by Ingle considering the start.

Medina - I gave you that one in my original post.

Augie Sanchez - Yes I will scoff at that suggestion. Never got the chance to show he was world class, let along a challenge for the so called finest champion.

Bungu - Some "experts" had your view, others said "Small Super Bantam who hadn't fought in over a year".

The fact is you have to say "excluding" Tszyu all the time. Yes, one fight doesn't make a legacy, but it sure helps. Anyway, I never called Hamed a joke - all I say is that Collazo (especially), Magee, Tackie, Phillips etc is comeparable to the majority of the fighters listed above.

Collazo was a world champion in his own respect, Phillips was a former champion (on the wane) but still capable of beating one or two decent fighters since (comparable with Kelley in 1997). Magee is the level of Augie Sanchez at least and Ben Tackie was a solid top 10 opperator proven at fringe level.

You have the likes of Johnson, Medina, Bungu (ish), and maybe Kelley above all of the rest - but a Kostya Tszyu is one thing Hamed will never had.

Hamed DIDN'T Completely clear out the devision there was Norwood (who I think might have beaten him), Espinosa, Morales, Gainer, Marquez, Lizzaraga and a few others. Norwood and Espinosa especially.

As I said though, I brought Hamed up by saying his record although good lacks the Tszyu - yet has never been considered a joke.... neither should Hatton.

Similarly, Honeyghun will go down as one of our great - but Kostya Tszyu is comparable to Curry.

Posted: **08 Feb 2007, 18:36**

Add McGuigan to that list too, apart from the super win against Pedroza, what else did he do to deserve the huge acclaim and repsect he receives?

Hatton has already equalled and maybe surpassed what Barry achieved. - It will be interesting to see how history looks back on Hatton.

As for Naz, I loved watching his fights, but it is true, he is missing that major player - Barrera was the name he needed to cement his legacy, and he screwed it up - Great great fighter, and on his day would have beaten anyone put in front of him and really his record is easily comparable to that of Hatton, and bar the Tzyu like scalp it is superior.

Shame he turned his career into a circus act.

Posted: **08 Feb 2007, 19:42**

Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote:
stujones wrote:So lets get this right Simpsons,

Kostya vs Hatton - 2005 - Generally regarded as won of the fights of the year.
Hatton vs Maussa - 2005 - Sky's Ko of the year.
Hatton vs Collazo - 2006 - One of the fights of the year.
Hatton vs Urango - 2007 - Stinker yes, but please lets not compare Hatton and Witter in terms of excitement value.

Hardly boring bullshit there. .
1. Top fight but not near fight of the year material
2. Sorry this was a clumsy fight and clumsy KO
3. Good fight yes but Hattons limitations were exposed
4. Stinker, Hatton ran from Urango - if were going to say Witter ran from Judah lets be fair. Hatton went 1 step beyond and Ruizs jab and grab to invent the sweet grab and grab andn ot engage whatsoever. In fairness I think Urangos a physical beast. Witter had the most exciting fight that night though.

Calling Witter boring is an excuse to not make Hatton-Witter - how can 1 of the biggest hitters at 140 be boring if someone presses him? When anyone briongs a fight to Witter and doesn't go into a shell he makes an exciting fight - see Ndou, Lauri (who Witter finnished far quicker than the supposedly more exciting Hatton).

Clumsy KO.... I am DEFENDING Hatton (as opposed to being a "nut hugger" for any one of them) but how can you say it was a clumsy KO. It was a peach of a shot. Yes, Hatton looked reckless - the fight wasn't that dull always a bit of drama (especially with the cut aspect) but yeah it was too onesided to be called a decent fight - it probably surprised most. I don't think we should be calling Hatton clumbsy, clumbsy was Lynes vs Witter.

How many Years ago did Witter beat Lauri? Yeah the Ndou fight was okay, but if you want to talk about exposing flaws - then that fight did. Hatton did very little grabbing in the early stages and got tired, just like Witter did vs Ndou. First 5 rounds Witter looked electric, couldn't sustain it (and critically it was the latter part of the fight that was shown).

I think Witter's fight with Morua being more exciting than Hatton vs Urango is open to serious debate (I hope you just meant between those two and not counted the other two fights showcased).

Witter hasn't been in a truly good fight ever, he's looked great in mismatches and terrible when he has stepped up. Correction, not looked terrible but been dull. The Ndou fights had its moments, but it sounds like you think it was a better fight than the Tszyu one. Last 5 rounds were boring with Witter running and holding and doing nout. Plus, it over on fightnews that Ndou only had a week to prepare.... so maybe with more time both would have improved.

Posted: **08 Feb 2007, 20:51**

rhino222 wrote:god im loving this, all of the hatton nut huggers have gone mysteriously very quiet.

talk about retrograde steps over the last few years.....now ricky has taken to fighting junior witters cast offs...

I'd wait until Hatton-N'Dou is announced before getting the napkin ready to wipe the pre-cum off your belly!

Posted: **09 Feb 2007, 03:02**

In the Mexican media Castillo has said he will not wait around if Hatton fights N’dou
because he has many options, one of them being the mandatory challenge with Witter.

Posted: **09 Feb 2007, 04:04**

Hamed's achievements way outweigh Hatton at the moment. Hamed cleaned out the division and but for ridiculous politics wouls have been the undisputed champion at 126. Hatton has won 1 big fight against Tszyu and although he has won belts here and there his comp level since has been decidedly average.

Posted: **09 Feb 2007, 05:24**

stujones wrote:Luis Espinosa was considered the #1 Featherweight when Hamed fought Robinson. He was certainly #1 in Boxing Monthly and I also think in Boxing News.

Wilfredo Vasquez WAS an elite fighter - but was so shot it was unbelievable. Get his fight on the undercard of Holyfield vs Moorer II. Made the Urango vs Rabah fight seem fair.

Tom Johnson - Not bad win undoubtedly, but fading - lucky to beat Jose Baddilo and was looking increasingly vulnerable. What happend to him after - lost to Charles Sheppard thats what happend.

Paul Ingle - Yeah, had there been a rematch was Ingle was more mature then yes it could have been considered an elite win. Paul seem to be heading that way. However, was KD everytime he stepped into world class even vs the Light punching Medina. Two ways of interpreting the fight, either your way - or the way I view as a fantastic effort by Ingle considering the start.

Medina - I gave you that one in my original post.

Augie Sanchez - Yes I will scoff at that suggestion. Never got the chance to show he was world class, let along a challenge for the so called finest champion.

Bungu - Some "experts" had your view, others said "Small Super Bantam who hadn't fought in over a year".

The fact is you have to say "excluding" Tszyu all the time. Yes, one fight doesn't make a legacy, but it sure helps. Anyway, I never called Hamed a joke - all I say is that Collazo (especially), Magee, Tackie, Phillips etc is comeparable to the majority of the fighters listed above.

Collazo was a world champion in his own respect, Phillips was a former champion (on the wane) but still capable of beating one or two decent fighters since (comparable with Kelley in 1997). Magee is the level of Augie Sanchez at least and Ben Tackie was a solid top 10 opperator proven at fringe level.

You have the likes of Johnson, Medina, Bungu (ish), and maybe Kelley above all of the rest - but a Kostya Tszyu is one thing Hamed will never had.

Hamed DIDN'T Completely clear out the devision there was Norwood (who I think might have beaten him), Espinosa, Morales, Gainer, Marquez, Lizzaraga and a few others. Norwood and Espinosa especially.

As I said though, I brought Hamed up by saying his record although good lacks the Tszyu - yet has never been considered a joke.... neither should Hatton.

Similarly, Honeyghun will go down as one of our great - but Kostya Tszyu is comparable to Curry.

Please tell me your not comparing the journeymen Maussa, Tackie, Maggee with Hameds championship wins. Those fighters are barely top 20 operators and never real top10ers for more than 2miniutes. Tackie and Maggee have never had any meaningful wins, which makes them nothing more than journeymen. Phillips was ancient and immobile at 39, I can't believe you'd bring that 1 up, he lost every round to Mitchell who most had losing to Ndou and has always had his problems being a notorious crack addict

Tyszu never had a marquee name on his resume himself. Hamed beat EVERY BELT HOLDER, and he beat the linear champ, and breat borderline greats/elites and beat the man who beat Espinosa

You say Vazquez/Kelly/Johnson/Bungu were past prime and ignore the fact Tyszu was old and ring rusty. The fact is those were elite level fighters maybe past their prime but great wins all the same

The fact you bring up Marquez/Morales is completely irrelevant to the 126 division, Morales was at 122 until the very end of Hameds reign and Marquez was offered a purse which he turned down and then lost very quickly after that.

Posted: **09 Feb 2007, 05:39**

stujones wrote:
Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote:
stujones wrote:So lets get this right Simpsons,

Kostya vs Hatton - 2005 - Generally regarded as won of the fights of the year.
Hatton vs Maussa - 2005 - Sky's Ko of the year.
Hatton vs Collazo - 2006 - One of the fights of the year.
Hatton vs Urango - 2007 - Stinker yes, but please lets not compare Hatton and Witter in terms of excitement value.

Hardly boring bullshit there. .
1. Top fight but not near fight of the year material
2. Sorry this was a clumsy fight and clumsy KO
3. Good fight yes but Hattons limitations were exposed
4. Stinker, Hatton ran from Urango - if were going to say Witter ran from Judah lets be fair. Hatton went 1 step beyond and Ruizs jab and grab to invent the sweet grab and grab andn ot engage whatsoever. In fairness I think Urangos a physical beast. Witter had the most exciting fight that night though.

Calling Witter boring is an excuse to not make Hatton-Witter - how can 1 of the biggest hitters at 140 be boring if someone presses him? When anyone briongs a fight to Witter and doesn't go into a shell he makes an exciting fight - see Ndou, Lauri (who Witter finnished far quicker than the supposedly more exciting Hatton).
Clumsy KO.... I am DEFENDING Hatton (as opposed to being a "nut hugger" for any one of them) but how can you say it was a clumsy KO. It was a peach of a shot. Yes, Hatton looked reckless - the fight wasn't that dull always a bit of drama (especially with the cut aspect) but yeah it was too onesided to be called a decent fight - it probably surprised most. I don't think we should be calling Hatton clumbsy, clumbsy was Lynes vs Witter.

How many Years ago did Witter beat Lauri? Yeah the Ndou fight was okay, but if you want to talk about exposing flaws - then that fight did. Hatton did very little grabbing in the early stages and got tired, just like Witter did vs Ndou. First 5 rounds Witter looked electric, couldn't sustain it (and critically it was the latter part of the fight that was shown).

I think Witter's fight with Morua being more exciting than Hatton vs Urango is open to serious debate (I hope you just meant between those two and not counted the other two fights showcased).

Witter hasn't been in a truly good fight ever, he's looked great in mismatches and terrible when he has stepped up. Correction, not looked terrible but been dull. The Ndou fights had its moments, but it sounds like you think it was a better fight than the Tszyu one. Last 5 rounds were boring with Witter running and holding and doing nout. Plus, it over on fightnews that Ndou only had a week to prepare.... so maybe with more time both would have improved.

Why do I call it a clumsy KO? Because he wouldn't land a telegraphed hook like that on any top10 operator. Yes Witter looked clumsy against Lynes hes certainly upped his game in the last 2.

The only way to compare fighters is common opponents or if they share a ring together. Lauri is the only common opponent, regardless whether it was a few years ago or not Witter looked better against him.

I only watched 3 fights that night (Witter, Castillo, Hatton). I found Witters the most enthrawling - Castillo-Ndujodo was entertaining but Castillo was flat and uninspiring.

Posted: **09 Feb 2007, 07:21**

Well, you clearly didn't see Phillips vs Mitchell, Mitchell vs Ndou or Castillo vs Njoudjo if that is your take on any of the fights. Witter vs Morua was a bore fest. Phillips vs Mitchell was a Majority Decision - I scored it for Mitchell but was close.... Mitchell (IMO) did a much better job vs Ndou than Cotto did (let alone Witter).

At least Wrist is admitting that he slanted his argument in favour of Hamed regarding his posts.... and I admit that I'm probably OTT the otherway. I never brought the comparison up, all I said was that Hamed has never been called "a joke" even by his harshest critics (i.e. me) but he lacks the win that Hatton had. Lloyd Honeyghun has never been called "a joke" yet his resume (if you take out both Hatton and Lloyd's best wins) are similar. Yet, one of only two established meaningful champions this country has is labelled a joke.

Yeah right.

Posted: **09 Feb 2007, 08:04**

Bugger it, come on Kostya come out and fight Witter. I would love to see the grin on Ricky's face if Zoo knocked Witter clean out...

Turrah Junior

Posted: **09 Feb 2007, 08:05**

stujones wrote:Well, you clearly didn't see Phillips vs Mitchell, Mitchell vs Ndou or Castillo vs Njoudjo if that is your take on any of the fights. Witter vs Morua was a bore fest. Phillips vs Mitchell was a Majority Decision - I scored it for Mitchell but was close.... Mitchell (IMO) did a much better job vs Ndou than Cotto did (let alone Witter).

At least Wrist is admitting that he slanted his argument in favour of Hamed regarding his posts.... and I admit that I'm probably OTT the otherway. I never brought the comparison up, all I said was that Hamed has never been called "a joke" even by his harshest critics (i.e. me) but he lacks the win that Hatton had. Lloyd Honeyghun has never been called "a joke" yet his resume (if you take out both Hatton and Lloyd's best wins) are similar. Yet, one of only two established meaningful champions this country has is labelled a joke.

Yeah right.

I saw Castillo-Ndoujo last week, I think allot of people gave Castillo the benefit of the doubt in that fight, it was close but I thought castillo was lucky to get the decision. I haven't seen all of Ndou-Mitchell but the majority of watchers had Ndou winning a close 1 - I don't think anyone had Ndou beating Witter

Hamed hasn't been called a 'joke'? Well he does on many US forums and I have never labelled Hatton a joke - I just think hes overated and steers clear of the best for fear of losing his unbeaten record. Hatton also isn't P4P on the same level as Hamed, hes very good but anyone who struggles and gets wobbly knees from Collazo and Urango isn't 1 of the greats.

Posted: **09 Feb 2007, 08:11**

Wrists wrote:Interesting one this.

For me Naz's resume is criminally under rated because people choose to take the easy road and criticise because of the Barrera fight and also because of his antics since then.

Ricky - I have the ultimate respect for, great guy, no frills, straight up and he gave us Brits one their best nights when he beat Kosta, but for me the quality of opponent in comparison to Naz (Tyszu aside) is not up to the mark.

Naz fought, beat and KO'd the vast majority of the following:

Kevin Kelley - 1 defeat in 50 going in good Ko ratio and Naz despite having bad moments sparked him inside 4 rounds.

Tom Johnson - at the time universally rated as the best feather in the world, Ring Magazine (who the majority seem to think have the best ratings) had Boom Boom at No.1, what happened Naz KO'd in 8

Wilfredo Vasquez - again universally rated as top 3/4 feather at the time, Naz KO 7, I will accept the argument that he was past his best, still a good win nonetheless

Paul Ingle - unbeaten hungry fighter on the up, Naz apart from 2 shaky rounds (9 & 10) dominated the fight with 3 knockdowns and a lovely 1 shot KO

Manuel Medina - still relatively in his prime, KO'd in 11 with Naz suffering from a cold, not an excuse you could hear it in the post fight interview.

Augie Sanchez - before you all scoff, this guy was a huge puncher who (if you visited Kronk Gym website) Manny Steward said was a big threat 12 months prior to this fight happening, result clean, brutal KO in 4

Bungu - before the fight everyone said 'ooh tough test' , 'never been stopped' - result thanks for coming NAZ KO 4.

Ok ok I may have been a tad one sided but to me Naz's dance card, Kelley, Medina, Johnson, Bungu, Robinson, Badillo, Ingle, McCullough, Belcastro (remember this was Naz's 12th pro fight) is much better than Tackie, Oliveria, Phillips, Stewart, Maussa, Collazo

Of course the one undisputable fact is that Naz twatted up his big test against MAB whereas Ricky stepped up. The question is does one fight make someone's legacy? No.

People on here too often overlook the fact that Naz bragged a bit and was a bit of a tool whereas good old Ricky enters shit shirt competitions and likes drinking in the local etc etc etc and use that as justificatio for his career whereas Naz likes the porsches, was a bit big headed therefore is the devil incarnate.

If this is judged on career alone for me Naz proved more than Ricky (so far).

If Ricky beats Castillo convinceingly (comparable to Kevin kelley, good record in his 30s) then FIGHTS a Cotto or a Mayweather than thats good enough for me

Ricky is not a joke but lets not forget Hamed who put more bums on seats and created more new boxing fans than any british boxer ever

Regards

Wrists

Hamed fought some quality opponents no doubt, and until Barrera stepped up, Hamed was clearly the man at 126. If that's your point, then I agree with you.

The comparison with Ricky is bit misleading though isn't it. The fights you list happened over a FIVE year timescale whilst Hamed was WBO champ. Ricky only won his first world championship belt 18 months ago. In three and a half years time then you would have a valid comparison. Its not as if Hamed didnt fight his share of Jose Badillos, Billy Hardys, Juan Cabreras while he was champ.

Posted: **09 Feb 2007, 08:24**

don't call it a comeback wrote: Hamed fought some quality opponents no doubt, and until Barrera stepped up, Hamed was clearly the man at 126. If that's your point, then I agree with you.

The comparison with Ricky is bit misleading though isn't it. The fights you list happened over a FIVE year timescale whilst Hamed was WBO champ. Ricky only won his first world championship belt 18 months ago. In three and a half years time then you would have a valid comparison. Its not as if Hamed didnt fight his share of Jose Badillos, Billy Hardys, Juan Cabreras while he was champ.

Wouldnt Hatton disagree and say he was a champ since he won the WBU? Plus hes older now than when Hamed retired and looks past his prime already

Posted: **09 Feb 2007, 08:36**

Hamed was 28 when he retired, Hatton is the same age.

I cannot believe Ricky is 28 already! It's shocking, couple of years he will probably be retired.

Posted: **09 Feb 2007, 08:49**

Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote:
don't call it a comeback wrote: Hamed fought some quality opponents no doubt, and until Barrera stepped up, Hamed was clearly the man at 126. If that's your point, then I agree with you.

The comparison with Ricky is bit misleading though isn't it. The fights you list happened over a FIVE year timescale whilst Hamed was WBO champ. Ricky only won his first world championship belt 18 months ago. In three and a half years time then you would have a valid comparison. Its not as if Hamed didnt fight his share of Jose Badillos, Billy Hardys, Juan Cabreras while he was champ.
Wouldnt Hatton disagree and say he was a champ since he won the WBU? Plus hes older now than when Hamed retired and looks past his prime already

Don't know what Hatton would say but I doubt that he would claim that the WBU was on the same level as the WBO. Don't really matter what age he is - fighters age at different rates. Hamed happened to win a title at a very young age - of the two I would say that Hamed peaked at the younger age. Just because he fought more world champs between the ages of 23 and 28 than Ricky doesnt mean a lot unless Ricky retires tomorrow. Antonio Tarver, to pick a random example, hadnt even turned pro at that age. I think Ricky might go on for another three to four years if he keeps winning. How many fighters who are winning actually call it a day at the top?

You say hes past his prime thats your opinion. But generally I regard it as sensible if you have two brain cells not to define a fighters prime until after he has retired. Gatti was supposed to past his prime in 1998 but made his money and his legacy after that date while Jeff Lacey was supposed to be in his prime last year but caught a fast train to obscurity.

You just can't tell in advance - thats why we actually have the fights happen....

Posted: **09 Feb 2007, 13:25**

Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote:

I saw Castillo-Ndoujo last week, I think allot of people gave Castillo the benefit of the doubt in that fight, it was close but I thought castillo was lucky to get the decision. I haven't seen all of Ndou-Mitchell but the majority of watchers had Ndou winning a close 1 - I don't think anyone had Ndou beating Witter

Hamed hasn't been called a 'joke'? Well he does on many US forums and I have never labelled Hatton a joke - I just think hes overated and steers clear of the best for fear of losing his unbeaten record. Hatton also isn't P4P on the same level as Hamed, hes very good but anyone who struggles and gets wobbly knees from Collazo and Urango isn't 1 of the greats.

My arguement regarding Castillo - Ndjoujo is not about how you scored the fight (it could have gone either way) just the fact you thought Witter's fight with Morua was more exciting. However, now you've said you haven't seen it live (and I would imagine knew the outcome) then of course it would be as exciting.

I have seen all the fights involving Ndou in full and although it was only the Mitchell fight I saw when I knew the result. All 3 beat him and I think it beyond dispute - even the Cotto seemed to be in the most control of the three - I actually thought it was close on the cards (far closer than the general feel of the fight if you get my meaning). I actually had it in the end for Cotto by 2. I had Witter beating Ndou by 3 and Mitchell beating him by 4. Mitchell got tagged a couple of times but was never in any serious problems (infact the fight was quite similar to Witters, aside from the KD's). Ndou was about as close as stopping Mitchell and he was Witter (not very in either case).

My original post wasn't about you. I know YOU never called him a Joke and I can see alot of sense in your final paragraph. However, at least twice he has been called a joke by British posters in this thread. US Posters calling Hamed a joke is WRONG, but maybe a bit more understandable because he did under perform stateside and many of his great fights were not showcased to a great extent in the USA. Another thing is the personality, Hamed talked the talked a great deal ("I'm going to be a legend") and when it came to walking the walk... he lost.

Note, thats not me calling him a joke - just seeing maybe from the US perspective - who have had a lot more legends than we have.

Yes, Hatton has said he wants all these big fights and so far (since Tszyu) it hasn't come and its getting frustrating... but he has never made anything like the predictions Hamed did with regards to the outcomes of the Super Fights... just says stuff like "Floyd Mayweather and Myself is the fight the public wants and we both want". Not "I'm going to let me rocket launchers go and spark Barrera". Also, if Hatton retires now - he has had his legend, he has had his all time great.... is only (thus far) Mayweather and DLH that can match that. Even Cotto (currently) is a level down in terms of achievement.

Yes, he had a titantic struggle with Collazo - showed he wasn't a Welterweight. He moved back down and lost a round vs Urango (in the USA who score fights for aggresion) on all three cards. That doesn't indicate a struggle. Thats pretty convincing. Junior lost more rounds vs Corley (and we all know how wide he beat him).

Posted: **09 Feb 2007, 13:48**

stujones wrote:
Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote: I saw Castillo-Ndoujo last week, I think allot of people gave Castillo the benefit of the doubt in that fight, it was close but I thought castillo was lucky to get the decision. I haven't seen all of Ndou-Mitchell but the majority of watchers had Ndou winning a close 1 - I don't think anyone had Ndou beating Witter

Hamed hasn't been called a 'joke'? Well he does on many US forums and I have never labelled Hatton a joke - I just think hes overated and steers clear of the best for fear of losing his unbeaten record. Hatton also isn't P4P on the same level as Hamed, hes very good but anyone who struggles and gets wobbly knees from Collazo and Urango isn't 1 of the greats.
My arguement regarding Castillo - Ndjoujo is not about how you scored the fight (it could have gone either way) just the fact you thought Witter's fight with Morua was more exciting. However, now you've said you haven't seen it live (and I would imagine knew the outcome) then of course it would be as exciting.

I have seen all the fights involving Ndou in full and although it was only the Mitchell fight I saw when I knew the result. All 3 beat him and I think it beyond dispute - even the Cotto seemed to be in the most control of the three - I actually thought it was close on the cards (far closer than the general feel of the fight if you get my meaning). I actually had it in the end for Cotto by 2. I had Witter beating Ndou by 3 and Mitchell beating him by 4. Mitchell got tagged a couple of times but was never in any serious problems (infact the fight was quite similar to Witters, aside from the KD's). Ndou was about as close as stopping Mitchell and he was Witter (not very in either case).

My original post wasn't about you. I know YOU never called him a Joke and I can see alot of sense in your final paragraph. However, at least twice he has been called a joke by British posters in this thread. US Posters calling Hamed a joke is WRONG, but maybe a bit more understandable because he did under perform stateside and many of his great fights were not showcased to a great extent in the USA. Another thing is the personality, Hamed talked the talked a great deal ("I'm going to be a legend") and when it came to walking the walk... he lost.

Note, thats not me calling him a joke - just seeing maybe from the US perspective - who have had a lot more legends than we have.

Yes, Hatton has said he wants all these big fights and so far (since Tszyu) it hasn't come and its getting frustrating... but he has never made anything like the predictions Hamed did with regards to the outcomes of the Super Fights... just says stuff like "Floyd Mayweather and Myself is the fight the public wants and we both want". Not "I'm going to let me rocket launchers go and spark Barrera". Also, if Hatton retires now - he has had his legend, he has had his all time great.... is only (thus far) Mayweather and DLH that can match that. Even Cotto (currently) is a level down in terms of achievement.

Yes, he had a titantic struggle with Collazo - showed he wasn't a Welterweight. He moved back down and lost a round vs Urango (in the USA who score fights for aggresion) on all three cards. That doesn't indicate a struggle. Thats pretty convincing. Junior lost more rounds vs Corley (and we all know how wide he beat him).

No I watched all the Witter/Hatton/Castillo fights live - somewhat a disapointing way to sit up to 4am. The Witter fight I may have overated as a Witter fan because as a fan your going to be more charged for the fight. The Castillo# fight was a little disapointing - 1 amuturish fighter and another battle worn old pro with little in the tank.

Yes the Ndou-Mitchell I will have to resevre judgement on - there was somewhat of an outcry.

Does Hatton been miodest ecuse him from criticism? He can make any fight he wants but chooses to go for fighters a couple of pegs down.

RE Urango - I had him winning 5 rounds (last 4 and was it the 5th or 4th that Urango won big?) and he hurt Ricky a good few times, whereas Ricky couldnt hurt him. I actually had Witter winning every round against Corley.

As for people calling Hatton a joke - was that old london/simpsons/lirva33 or whatever hes calling himself these days. What do you expect? Hatton himself isn't a joke but his comp is a bit of a piss take to the fans at times.

Posted: **09 Feb 2007, 15:22**

I think Corley would beat Urango for what its worth.

Posted: **09 Feb 2007, 16:05**

Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote:
No I watched all the Witter/Hatton/Castillo fights live - somewhat a disapointing way to sit up to 4am. The Witter fight I may have overated as a Witter fan because as a fan your going to be more charged for the fight. The Castillo# fight was a little disapointing - 1 amuturish fighter and another battle worn old pro with little in the tank.

Yes the Ndou-Mitchell I will have to resevre judgement on - there was somewhat of an outcry.

Does Hatton been miodest ecuse him from criticism? He can make any fight he wants but chooses to go for fighters a couple of pegs down.

RE Urango - I had him winning 5 rounds (last 4 and was it the 5th or 4th that Urango won big?) and he hurt Ricky a good few times, whereas Ricky couldnt hurt him. I actually had Witter winning every round against Corley.

As for people calling Hatton a joke - was that old london/simpsons/lirva33 or whatever hes calling himself these days. What do you expect? Hatton himself isn't a joke but his comp is a bit of a piss take to the fans at times.

Thats a reasonable enough stance - I do disagree with some, but can see your point.

Nah, It wasn't Simpsons who called Hatton a joke originally (he did agree) it was Silkov, someone whose posts I enjoy reading normally.

I suppose if your that big a Witter fan you were most looking forward to him against Morua - then obviously you were would be more excited about it. I was more excited about Calzaghe vs Lacy than Maccarinelli vs Hobson - but know the Maccarinelli fight was better.

No Hatton's modesty doesn't excuse him from criticism and I was VERY critical of this match. I saw business and boxing logic in Maussa and Collazo (even if they were a step down from Tszyu). No excuse for the last one. However, I'm not sure that Witter has done enough to warrant being significantly above the Urango tag - above yes, but Witter has struggled at a similar level and even a lower level (vs Lynes). I most certainly think that Castillo not only is the bigger fight, but at the moment a more proven opperator who will give Hatton a tough ask. If it is Ndou, then yes I will be upset but hope that means he is focused on unifying. I still think it is too early to really get the knives out - especially with Witter as the reason (at this stage in Witter's championship career).

I disagree on your scoring on the Urango fight - yes Urango was a strong man who at times made Hatton think (especially with the body) but I don't think there is any shame in that and I thought Hatton lost two rounds tops - but can see your argument.

I think Corley vs Urango would be interesting.... Corley looked like a pale shadow of an (always) overated fighter - he hasn't had a good win in a while and given Cotto's struggles at 140 since.... temporarily confusing Cotto isn't that big a deal. I'd have to go for Urango on points just through workrate.

Posted: **10 Feb 2007, 20:03**

stujones wrote:Hatton is a joke? Sorry thats funny in itself.

I have been very forward in my disgust at Hatton fighting Urango, indeed Hattons opponents post Tszyu. However, from a business point of view I could see logic in Maussa and Collazo - although not necessarily as a sequential series of fights. If Hatton wanted to unify the Light Welter, then it was best to get hold of Maussa before some one else did and get him nice and early - Hatton did, job done. I was a little annoyed that Hatton did keep both titles and try and unify - especially as Cotto was still a 140 lbs fighter. However, he wanted to test the water at 147 (no harm in that) and again I thought Collazo was a wise choice - it gave him some more cred Stateside (had he performed) a title and geniune claims (had he done a number) for being the #1 147 lbs fighter. It didn't work, so he went back down - no qualms.

However, I was disgusted that he would face the same level of fighter, with the same credibility that he REFUSED to fight before - that he would rather be stripped off than face. Moving back down was fine, but it shouldn't have been about the titles - his FIRST fight back at 140 should have been vs the likes of Castillo, Corrales, Witter, even Lazcano, Harris, Freitas, Kid Diamond etc - not Urango... complete waste IMO.

Having said that, to call Hatton a joke is plain rediculous. The guy is already assured a place in history as one of the finest fighters this country has produced. He is an all time great Britain. He could have easily retired (financially) after Tszyu a hero and place in British boxing folklore assured. He's not beaten the best of option since Tszyu, but they have been okay and in his 140 fights he's hardly lost a round. Yet, now he is a joke.

I have been very critical of Naseem Hamed title reign - where were the Morales', Espinosa's, Norwood's, Marquez's, Gainer's, hell even Tapia, Ayalia, Bones Adams etc - let alone fighters north of 126 that were mooted (Freitas, Nelson even De La Hoya!) - the MAJORITY of Hamed's title defences were of Maussa, Urango, Collazo standard possibly below - only Medina, Johnson (who didn't have much left), Kelley and maybe Robinson (who didn't have much left) were a bit higher (too soon for Ingle, McCullough was no feather and Vasquez was finished). The Kostya esque acid test that faced Hamed - he ended up with egg on his face. However, would I ever call Hamed a joke.... no chance, I have the utmost respect for what he achieved and he has too go down as a British all time great.

Yet Hatton is this joke that is killing the game in this country. Your having a laugh. Sure, be critical of his opponents - but a joke he isn't.

I have to agree with your comments Hatton is without doubt a great British fighter who deserves, and will go down in boxing history as one of our very best - I dont like the way everyone seems to be turning on Hatton or Calzaghe for that matter - I also dont like the way certain people bad mouth people like yourself who have considerable boxing knowledge - Opinion is opinion and we all have a right to voice it, but being downright rude to another to make your point is totally disgusting - The editor has stepped in on another thread where two individuals crossed the line, and he was right to do so - Disagreement and debate are good and thats what the forum is all about so I wish people posting would stop getting personal and stick to their own opinions and of course politely challenge others who have a different view.

Posted: **10 Feb 2007, 20:19**

jamesmcdonnell wrote:Hamed was 28 when he retired, Hatton is the same age.

I cannot believe Ricky is 28 already! It's shocking, couple of years he will probably be retired.

Shame he's sliding at a young age like 28!

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