BoxRec

UpWithEvil... Maybe you should read the points that people are making, before criticising their writing.

I was not talking about the time of 1904-05... I was referring to HIS COMEBACK in 1910 when Jeffires/Johnson fought.

The white public pleaded with Jeffries to return to fight the negro champion... Johnson was beating all around him, he showed little respect for his white counterparts... And mocked that he was the "best lover of white women in the world"...

I agree that Johnson was NOT deserving of Jeffries title at the moment of his retirement (1904-05)... BUT, Jeffries was pestered to return since 1908 to fight Johnson...

Maybe you should re-read what people write, dude...

"UpWithEvil... Maybe you should read the points that people are making, before criticising their writing."

I didn't criticize anybody's writing.

"I was not talking about the time of 1904-05... I was referring to HIS COMEBACK in 1910 when Jeffires/Johnson fought."

In that case I don't believe that either. Jeffries was a fat, retired farmer refereeing an occasional fight after retirement. If he said, "Boys, I appreciate the enthusiasm, but I'm a retired farmer now and nowhere near fighting trim. I've no doubt I would have whooped that three-flusher Johnson if he'd been worthy of a title shot when I was champion, but he couldn't make the cut then and I'm out of the game today. Best wishes, James J Jeffries, undefeated heavyweight champion," you'd still have your revisionist historians carping as you do today, but they'd largely be ignored, as they are today.

Crease wrote:And lastly, I understand that people are bringing Jeffries age into the discussion... Let's be realistic guys, he was 35...

OLD... YES

ANCIENT... Hardly

There are boxers who fight today who have pretty good records... Joe Calzaghe for example... And he's still on top of his game. :)

Though I do agree that Jeffries must have been somewhat "ring rusty" as he had fought for years previous...

Numbers, especially in boxing, can often count for little. Jeffries was more than thirty-five, realistically. He hadn't fought in six years & had to shed a hundred pounds or so preceding the fight. "Somewhat ring-rusty" is not an accurate description of Jeffries' state.

There is absolutely no valid comparison between Calzaghe & Jeffries. Zilch.

More impressive regarding Jeffries come back is how good a
shape he got himself into, how much weight he lost in the amount
of time and how he did not win the biggest loser for his efforts.

One can only imagine the pressure he was under to beat Johnson,
and how experts and fans alike were so ignorant as to believe and
expect him to beat Johnson.

Robinson wrote:More impressive regarding Jeffries come back is how good a
shape he got himself into, how much weight he lost in the amount
of time and how he did not win the biggest loser for his efforts.

One can only imagine the pressure he was under to beat Johnson,
and how experts and fans alike were so ignorant as to believe and
expect him to beat Johnson.

It's a bit of a double-edged sword, though. I had a colleague once who shed eighty pounds in three & a half months, & he looked & said he felt weak a lot of the time. It takes a while for that weight loss to even itself out & make you stronger for it. One wonders just how much Jeffries was ill-affected by the loss.

You, Kym, of course know your share about this, being a fighter, though I don't suppose you've personally lost that much weight, in so short a time, no less. Gruelling stuff, & credit to Jeffries.

UpWithEvil wrote:

"If Jeffries had not have come back, then people would have written about him avoiding Johnson... And his refusal of the fight would have been well-documented.."

Baloney. At the time of Jeffries' retirement Jack Johnson was in no way deserving of a title shot, and in fact was struggling to beat Hank Griffin, a veteran negro fighter whom Jeffries had battered twice.

Correct. Back in 1905 there was a high stakes fight for Johnson. Johnson and Hart fought for what was billed as a elimiation fight to meet Jim Jeffries.

Johnson performance vs Hart was very poor. Even if you think Johnson was jobbed of the decision there is no way he could have beaten a prime 1905 Jim Jeffries.

When Hart won the fight, Jeffries said he'd fight him if the public wanted to see it, but after blowing out Munroe in what would have been ruled as a 1st round TKO by modern standards, the public was not going to pay to see a mis-match.

do i recall correctly that he prepared for almost a year?

Goodnight, Irene wrote:

Robinson wrote:More impressive regarding Jeffries come back is how good a
shape he got himself into, how much weight he lost in the amount
of time and how he did not win the biggest loser for his efforts.

One can only imagine the pressure he was under to beat Johnson,
and how experts and fans alike were so ignorant as to believe and
expect him to beat Johnson.

It's a bit of a double-edged sword, though. I had a colleague once who shed eighty pounds in three & a half months, & he looked & said he felt weak a lot of the time. It takes a while for that weight loss to even itself out & make you stronger for it. One wonders just how much Jeffries was ill-affected by the loss.

You, Kym, of course know your share about this, being a fighter, though I don't suppose you've personally lost that much weight, in so short a time, no less. Gruelling stuff, & credit to Jeffries.

The worse I have done was 8kg in about a week. Was horrible. I bet Jeffries missed the
good foods that he had to say no to while getting lean. Its amazing how big he did get
considering he retired at 28.

The only guys that surfaced at different times as legitimate contenders in Jeff's reign that he didn't fight were McVey, Hart, Martin and Johnson. All four managed to eliminate themselves but as far as the black fighters were concerned it didn't matter, as Jeff(while champion) consistantly barred black fighters. Johnson, prior to the Hart fight, was the stand-out contender.
There is a lot of revisionalism now about that period but McVey and Johnson were seen as top contenders by 1903.

donnellon wrote:The only guys that surfaced at different times as legitimate contenders in Jeff's reign that he didn't fight were McVey, Hart, Martin and Johnson. All four managed to eliminate themselves but as far as the black fighters were concerned it didn't matter, as Jeff(while champion) consistantly barred black fighters. Johnson, prior to the Hart fight, was the stand-out contender.
There is a lot of revisionalism now about that period but McVey and Johnson were seen as top contenders by 1903.

Really? What was Hank Griffin considered, then? Between 1901 and 1902 he'd fought Jack Johnson three times, winning one decision and going to a draw twice despite being at the tail end of his career. Jeffries had no compunction about stepping into the ring with Griffin, as he did on two separate occasions, and giving that negro a battering.

Griffin was never considered a title contender at the time, that's what I mean about revisionalism. A win over Johnson in '02 meant nothing as Jack was unknown at the top level. By 1903-04 Johnson had moved on while Hank went in reverse. It's a bit like saying Ross Purrity should have got a title shot for beating Wlad when somebody is looking at that period in 2108!

UpWithEvil wrote:

donnellon wrote:The only guys that surfaced at different times as legitimate contenders in Jeff's reign that he didn't fight were McVey, Hart, Martin and Johnson. All four managed to eliminate themselves but as far as the black fighters were concerned it didn't matter, as Jeff(while champion) consistantly barred black fighters. Johnson, prior to the Hart fight, was the stand-out contender.
There is a lot of revisionalism now about that period but McVey and Johnson were seen as top contenders by 1903.

Really? What was Hank Griffin considered, then? Between 1901 and 1902 he'd fought Jack Johnson three times, winning one decision and going to a draw twice despite being at the tail end of his career. Jeffries had no compunction about stepping into the ring with Griffin, as he did on two separate occasions, and giving that negro a battering.

Johnson's star really began to rise after he reeled off impressive wins over Sam McVey and Denver Ed Martin - both in LA - and Sandy Ferguson in early 1903. By late 1903 and throughout 1904, Johnson was making lots of noise challenging Jeffries, and several newspapers took up the cry - most notably the Police Gazette. Several promoters wanted to put together a championship match between Jeffries and Johnson.

The pressure on Jeffries to defend against Johnson eased after Johnson lost to Hart. There was never any real pressure on Jeffries to defend against Hart because Hart looked so poor in his win against Johnson.

Jeffries only netted about $1,000 (he said) in his defense against Munroe, and knew he wouldn't do any better against Hart. He was sick of fighting and traveling, so he retired.

Griffith? Regarding Jeffries' fight with Griffith after Jeff won the title, that was not a title fight. It was little more than a 4-round exhibition in which Griffith won prize money for staying the distance. From late 1901 on, Jeffries was pretty adamant that he would not defend the title against an African-American. By 1902, Griffith was relegated to sparring partner status for Bob Fitzsimmons.

raylawpc wrote:

UpWithEvil wrote:

donnellon wrote:The only guys that surfaced at different times as legitimate contenders in Jeff's reign that he didn't fight were McVey, Hart, Martin and Johnson. All four managed to eliminate themselves but as far as the black fighters were concerned it didn't matter, as Jeff(while champion) consistantly barred black fighters. Johnson, prior to the Hart fight, was the stand-out contender.
There is a lot of revisionalism now about that period but McVey and Johnson were seen as top contenders by 1903.

Really? What was Hank Griffin considered, then? Between 1901 and 1902 he'd fought Jack Johnson three times, winning one decision and going to a draw twice despite being at the tail end of his career. Jeffries had no compunction about stepping into the ring with Griffin, as he did on two separate occasions, and giving that negro a battering.

Johnson's star really began to rise after he reeled off impressive wins over Sam McVey and Denver Ed Martin - both in LA - and Sandy Ferguson in early 1903. By late 1903 and throughout 1904, Johnson was making lots of noise challenging Jeffries, and several newspapers took up the cry - most notably the Police Gazette. Several promoters wanted to put together a championship match between Jeffries and Johnson.

The pressure on Jeffries to defend against Johnson eased after Johnson lost to Hart. There was never any real pressure on Jeffries to defend against Hart because Hart looked so poor in his win against Johnson.

Jeffries only netted about $1,000 (he said) in his defense against Munroe, and knew he wouldn't do any better against Hart. He was sick of fighting and traveling, so he retired.

Griffith? Regarding Jeffries' fight with Griffith after Jeff won the title, that was not a title fight. It was little more than a 4-round exhibition in which Griffith won prize money for staying the distance. From late 1901 on, Jeffries was pretty adamant that he would not defend the title against an African-American. By 1902, Griffith was relegated to sparring partner status for Bob Fitzsimmons.

Johnson always made a lot of noise. No promoter offered a big purse for Jeffries vs Johnson in 1903 or 1904. If one did, perhaps we see it.

In prize fighting, money always talks first and last. In 1909, when the big purse was up Jeffries fought Johnson for the title. Has the same money been offered in 1903 or 1904, I think there is a real chance we see Jeffries vs Johnson.

McVey was not a top contender while Jeffries was champion. He was but a teenager losing to Jack Johnson.

I am leaving for a trip and don't have time to pull all the articles, but I suggest you check the October 29 (p. 12), 1903 LA Times and the October 31 (p. 6) 1903 LA Times, and you find Jeffries called out by the LA Times , and that promoters, in fact, wanted to promote a Jeffries-Johnson fight. The Colma Club offered a purse of $20,000 for the match in San Francisco.

If you check the LA newspapers in 1904, you'll find that Uncle Tom McCarey was quite keen on securing the fight for LA.

Also, before McVey's loss to Johnson in 1903, some folks were intrigued by the notion of a Jeffries-McVey fight, primarily because McVey was the only heavyweight comparable to Jeffries in size and strength.

McVey despite his age was considered as a challanger to Jeff for a short period after his Russell and Martin wins until Johnson removed him. Likewise Martin. The main reason eas not any particular qualities in the challangers but in the dearth of real oposition out there. Hart did call out Jeff but really with no public support but there was, pre the Hart fight, a lot of support for Jack as a challanger. Jeffries choose to ignore him citing his previously expressed decision not to defend against a black opponent. At the time it didn't hurt him much but to return to the thread topic, I'm sure us guys on the thread would now be making waves about it if he hadn't returned.

I think Jeff is damaged because he drew the color line. It also didn't help that he didn't draw big money when he was champion either like a Jack Dempsey so he faded into history quickly. Like Marciano he came along when the top guys were on the slide. Jeff's claim to fame was ability to take a savage beating. What other true great is that said about? Lots of ringsiders say Sharkey beat him for the title in their 25 round go. All that said, I still think he is vastly underrated by history and he was truly one of the greats. He never beats Johnson though. Who on his record indicates he ever beats Jack Johnson? A Hank Griffin fight no one can independently verify?

Was there a big push outside of Los Angeles to get Jim Jeffries to defend his title in a bout with Jack Johnson during the period from 1903 to 1905? This is an important question because Los Angeles had a relatively small population and was in the infant stage in terms of becoming a major boxing venue at the time. San Francisco was a much bigger city and a far more important boxing venue than Los Angeles during the period. This doesn't mean that such a bout couldn't have taken place in Los Angeles, but one should look at the hard facts.

- Chuck Johnston