stujones wrote:It must also be noted that Joe was 2 years older than Dean at an age when that is a significant difference. It wasn't a 26 and 28 year old going at it. I think they were 17 and 19.
Regardless Stu, the facts speak for themselves. JC was a consecutive 3 qweight ABA champ and went on to win a pro world title and is still defending it successfully. Included in that reign are wins over Eubank and Lacy.
Francis, on the other hand, despite looking awesome on occasion has generally flattered to deceive. Between injuries and time in nick he also lost to Ballogou, which if I remember rightly was down to him running out of steam against a stronger foe.
Francis LOOKS like he should be the goods, Calzaghe IS.
(and this is from a Dean Francis fan - I really wanted him to go all the way when he was coming up..)
I wouldn't say it was "regardless" - do people still go on about the Amateur fight between Mosley and DLH after the second pro fight between them?
Yes, Francis lost to Ballagou cause he faded - but how old was he?
Some people mature a bit later than other, some people have to learn the hard way. No-one doubted Francis' stamina after the aforementioned war with Baker.... it was Francis' superior stamina that was the factor - he outlasted the hard as nails Baker. He then learned from this to beat David Starie in calculating fashion (and there a comparison with Calzaghe if you want to look at "facts").
The real fact is that we will never know how good Francis was - problems with licence/jail time and injury cost Francis of his prime. He had shown he was world class with his wins - was he Calzaghe class, I don't think we can RIGHTFULLY answer that cause they never met in their primes and I would say Calzaghe was closer to his, than Francis was.
I dunno. I admit that the age difference may well have played its part in their meeting - physical development and strength can mean a lot at that age but I dont accept the idea that Francis was on Calzaghe's level as a fighter.
All this talk of what may have been, gym form and appearance is tosh to me.
Show me results, belts and acheivements. Looking good against Corneluis Carr and David Starie is one thing but who did he beat that was at top of their game, and near world class? No one. Not anyone even close
There are plenty might have beens. Greg Page was meant to be the next Ali, Tony Ayala was supposed to be a bigger Duran. Neither were for one reason or another and call it bad luck, bad timing or fate or whateer you will but Page wasnt as good as Ali, Ayala wasnt as good as Duran and Francis wasnt as good as Calzaghe.
stujones wrote:It must also be noted that Joe was 2 years older than Dean at an age when that is a significant difference. It wasn't a 26 and 28 year old going at it. I think they were 17 and 19.
Regardless Stu, the facts speak for themselves. JC was a consecutive 3 qweight ABA champ and went on to win a pro world title and is still defending it successfully. Included in that reign are wins over Eubank and Lacy.
Francis, on the other hand, despite looking awesome on occasion has generally flattered to deceive. Between injuries and time in nick he also lost to Ballogou, which if I remember rightly was down to him running out of steam against a stronger foe.
Francis LOOKS like he should be the goods, Calzaghe IS.
(and this is from a Dean Francis fan - I really wanted him to go all the way when he was coming up..)
Francis had a hiccup with Ballogou. He wasn't far into his career and apparently had weight problems. Anyhow, he came back well to look a world beater. The way he beat down Starie (who made Calzaghe suck on Showtime), Carr & Seillier (more decisively than Collins), and Mark Baker (whom many felt beat Woods) suggested that he could go very far.
Even now, his left hand is world class.
He's a cult star and IMO deserves to be. Would love to see him get revenge over Barney and take on Magee.
stujones wrote:I wouldn't say it was "regardless" - do people still go on about the Amateur fight between Mosley and DLH after the second pro fight between them?
Yes, Francis lost to Ballagou cause he faded - but how old was he?
Some people mature a bit later than other, some people have to learn the hard way. No-one doubted Francis' stamina after the aforementioned war with Baker.... it was Francis' superior stamina that was the factor - he outlasted the hard as nails Baker. He then learned from this to beat David Starie in calculating fashion (and there a comparison with Calzaghe if you want to look at "facts").
The real fact is that we will never know how good Francis was - problems with licence/jail time and injury cost Francis of his prime. He had shown he was world class with his wins - was he Calzaghe class, I don't think we can RIGHTFULLY answer that cause they never met in their primes and I would say Calzaghe was closer to his, than Francis was.
I agree 100%.
I don't like the reductivist approach of Terry's, i.e. what did he ever do, who did he ever beat, show me this, show me that. Francis did some terrific things and to me looked a superb classical stylist. We have to speculate because because his arm popped out and derailed his prime.
TerribleTerry wrote:I dunno. I admit that the age difference may well have played its part in their meeting - physical development and strength can mean a lot at that age but I dont accept the idea that Francis was on Calzaghe's level as a fighter.
All this talk of what may have been, gym form and appearance is tosh to me.
Show me results, belts and acheivements. Looking good against Corneluis Carr and David Starie is one thing but who did he beat that was at top of their game, and near world class? No one. Not anyone even close
There are plenty might have beens. Greg Page was meant to be the next Ali, Tony Ayala was supposed to be a bigger Duran. Neither were for one reason or another and call it bad luck, bad timing or fate or whateer you will but Page wasnt as good as Ali, Ayala wasnt as good as Duran and Francis wasnt as good as Calzaghe.
I agree entirely, of course no one is going to say Francis looked so good vs Starie that must mean he is better than Calzaghe. Thats just like stating - Witter looked better vs Lauri than Hatton so he must be better.
However, we will never know how good Francis would have been. We will not know cause Francis was robbed of his prime years - and unlike Ayalia it was bad luck not stupidity that cost him.
I would say Starie was CLOSE to world class if not world class - Starie came within a whisker of beating Ottke and was a long time domestic level champion. I think that win showed Francis was at least fringe world class and thats all we know of him. It DID look like he could have upped it again, but we will never know. Francis was still developing as a fighter when the injury occured.
I don’t want to undersell Francis or deride what he has achieved, because as I said, I am a fan. But by the same token I don’t think we can say he was Calzaghe’s equal or better (as VM is) because he never rose to the same heights his domestic rival did.
‘I coulda been a contender’ is an often quoted lament in this sport and characters like Francis and Bernard ‘Super Bad’ Mays will forever give us debates as to what might have been, but for me I prefer fighters who deliver under the most intense pressure situations and over come adversity. To me, that is as great an asset (if not greater) to a fighter as a sweet left hook or a classical stance.
Clazaghe might look like his technique slaps when he punches and he wouldn’t beat Francis in a body building contest, but he has that indisputable quality in that he is a winner, and a champion, who has overcome tough awkward challenges time and again to prove his worth.
Francis’ long running shoulder problems could be viewed (cruelly)as a weakness in his physical make up that would have always prevented Dean reaching the summit of the sport. Whilst we can dismiss his early career loss as an oversight on his part, or lack of physical maturity, for me it’s a signpost that as a fighter he wasn’t on the same level as Calzaghe.
That was a good finish. Hardly threw a right again until the end, in the Boxing News preview he said of the last try that he said the shoulder was ok when deep down he knew it wasn't. He says it's fine now, could it be just as bad?
TerribleTerry wrote:I don’t want to undersell Francis or deride what he has achieved, because as I said, I am a fan. But by the same token I don’t think we can say he was Calzaghe’s equal or better (as VM is) because he never rose to the same heights his domestic rival did.
‘I coulda been a contender’ is an often quoted lament in this sport and characters like Francis and Bernard ‘Super Bad’ Mays will forever give us debates as to what might have been, but for me I prefer fighters who deliver under the most intense pressure situations and over come adversity. To me, that is as great an asset (if not greater) to a fighter as a sweet left hook or a classical stance.
Clazaghe might look like his technique slaps when he punches and he wouldn’t beat Francis in a body building contest, but he has that indisputable quality in that he is a winner, and a champion, who has overcome tough awkward challenges time and again to prove his worth.
Francis’ long running shoulder problems could be viewed (cruelly)as a weakness in his physical make up that would have always prevented Dean reaching the summit of the sport. Whilst we can dismiss his early career loss as an oversight on his part, or lack of physical maturity, for me it’s a signpost that as a fighter he wasn’t on the same level as Calzaghe.
well, we can't be sure, but Francis has to go down as one of our best ever prospects thanks to his 1997 to 1998 fights. Baker was a great win - many felt he beat Woods. Starie, Carr, Seillier aren't the calibre of fighters you should be defending world titles against. But they are terrific names to move a prospect and Francis beat them better than Calzaghe/Ottke and Collins.
TerribleTerry wrote:I don’t want to undersell Francis or deride what he has achieved, because as I said, I am a fan. But by the same token I don’t think we can say he was Calzaghe’s equal or better (as VM is) because he never rose to the same heights his domestic rival did.
‘I coulda been a contender’ is an often quoted lament in this sport and characters like Francis and Bernard ‘Super Bad’ Mays will forever give us debates as to what might have been, but for me I prefer fighters who deliver under the most intense pressure situations and over come adversity. To me, that is as great an asset (if not greater) to a fighter as a sweet left hook or a classical stance.
Clazaghe might look like his technique slaps when he punches and he wouldn’t beat Francis in a body building contest, but he has that indisputable quality in that he is a winner, and a champion, who has overcome tough awkward challenges time and again to prove his worth.
Francis’ long running shoulder problems could be viewed (cruelly)as a weakness in his physical make up that would have always prevented Dean reaching the summit of the sport. Whilst we can dismiss his early career loss as an oversight on his part, or lack of physical maturity, for me it’s a signpost that as a fighter he wasn’t on the same level as Calzaghe.
Nah, it was Undra White's fault. He jinxed Francis, same way he jinxed Taylor (TD) a few years ago.
Neri1983 wrote:That was a good finish. Hardly threw a right again until the end, in the Boxing News preview he said of the last try that he said the shoulder was ok when deep down he knew it wasn't. He says it's fine now, could it be just as bad?
Who knows. But his left looks better than ever. Definitely though, he needs that right hand.
He's very well balanced and has top quality footwork. To me, Francis is a good-looking (in style/temperament) a British fighter as I've seen. In the 2nd Rasani fight, he fires a combo, pivots to his left, rattles off another combo when the guy's blindsided. Clever stuff.
Stunning performance from Francis. He's beaten a prime McKenzie in really emphatic style. No one has done this before.
I've always thought Dean's best weight was light heavy, so as always, depending on his shoulder he can still make an even bigger impression in this division.
