BoxRec

160 has been the middleweight limit for a long time...certainly before Corbett ever stepped into the ring. That's why it was always a big deal when a middleweight stepped up against a heavyweight, but then again a heavyweight was anything above the middleweight limit until around 1903!

Looking at the records of the ENglish Bare Knuckle champions (HW's) does bring some raised eyebrows. While some of these men who held the title were passed the 176+ requirements of later years, the majority of the men fought around 160 pounds and were deemed HW's.

Here's a list of some fighters who prove the point:

Tom Cannon 'The Great Gun of Windsor'- 166 to 174 pounds

Harry Broome-147 pounds starting out and then reached 178 at his highest weight (won the WW and HW titles of england)

Tom Paddock- 166-168 pounds

Tom Sayers- Remarkably fought no higher than 152 pounds and started off at 112 pounds! (failed to win MW title but won the HW)

Jem Mace- Longest career ever of any fighter, fought from 135 to 175 pounds winning the MW, HW and WW titles, as well as the 'American HW'

This all leads me to believe that MW must have been somewhere around 148 to 160 (?) seeing that anyone higher than 165 was deemed a HW solely.

IrishRufusMurphy wrote:Corbett before making his actual first steps into a professional career (he had 'worked' with pros while as an amateur in exhibitions) was both a middleweight and heavyweight champion out on the west coast.

He fought from 173 pounds to 190+ pounds. Mind you at the time 176 pounds and up was HW and Middleweight was 165 pounds maximum. 166 to 175 was Light Heavyweight.

So pretty much Corbett went from MW to LHW to HW off and on throughout his career---though by today's standards he'd be a MW to Cruiserweight fighter.

The majority of his 'fights' were exhibitions, and most of those exhibitions can be seen on CyberBoxingZone and he fit into the MW class as well as the LHW and HW class for his time---today he wouldn't but wouldnt be missing it by much.

And as far as my threads on Ali---I have made constructibe criticism before on being a bad infighter and one certain things pertaining to his style and how he showed he had harder times in the ring with guys in the mold of Frazier/Marciano/Dempsey.

More incorrect information and ill- logic. 176 pounds and up was not heavyweight during almost Corbett's entire career. There was no lightheavyweight division until right before Corbett's very last fight of his career in 1903. By this time Corbett had been well over 175 for several years.
Even if you by believe the premise that the middleweight division was 165, if Corbett at his lowest weighed 173, that is still well over (by 8 pounds) the middleweight limit.
He was a heavyweight, not a middleweight or a lightheavyweight. It's as plain as day.

As for Ali, it hasn't been merely "constructible criticism of his being a bad infighter". It has been an excessive amount (at least 5 since December) of anti-Ali threads that IrishrufusMurphy has started. They are full of comments that are factually incorrect. They are also full of "logic" that makes no sense. He has demonstrated that he is very biased against Ali, and consistently doesn't bother to look up correct information.

This video doesn't seem to have been posted here yet. It far better footage of Corbett than what is normally seen around the place.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JLplicqexA

BitPlayer wrote:This video doesn't seem to have been posted here yet. It far better footage of Corbett than what is normally seen around the place.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JLplicqexA

Thanks for that, bitplayer.

The cleaned up film of Corbett-Fitzsimmons shows Corbett's speed of hand and foot, his accuracy, and his feinting ability.

The film of his sparring with Tunney when he was 58 or 59 shows the same feinting ability and speed

at about 1:37 of that clip Corbett even seems to do an Ali "shuffle" years before it even became famous.

I never thought of Ali as "extremely fast" ... He got nailed by Banks, Cooper, Frazier, Norton, and a lot of fighters with left hooks that quicker guys like Tunney and Joshua would get away from with ease.. In fact, Frazier hit Ali was a slew of left hooks that Joe couldn't get on Foreman -- who seemed to react more quickly to the hooks and counter them.. Just because you dance around showboating and shuffling your feet doesn't show me you're fast.

Ali was only 29 when he fought Frazier in the Garden.. He got cut off and trapped on the ropes.. Hiding behind your gloves doesn't show me you're fast either.. In the 60's there weren't any PRIME Heavyweights around who had the size, height, skill, speed, power, strength, and overall game to challenge Ali -- til Frazier came along -- and unfortunately Ali was out of the game just then.. Tunney was quicker and didn't get hit as much.. Joshua has only 19 fights so far and did get tagged up a bit in his last fight against a guy with 5 X the amateur and professional experience.. But he was fast enough to shed most of the follow up efforts and easily ducked the big bombing left hooks that plowed Pulev..

Dancers and runners are often described as fast when it's more of a showboat routine.. It would be ridiculous for Joshua to prance about the ring shuffling his feet -- and getting tagged with big left hooks.. He's a natural attacker.. Super aggressive fighters are often not given credit for their speed. Corbett was a runner, but for me he was a lot faster than Ali because he countered more accurately and didn't get hit as much -- going by the extremely poor footage that exists.. I'd love to view his first Jeffries fight -- which would have been a Corbett victory if it were a 12, 15, or 20 round fight. He got shot down in the 23rd.

BitPlayer wrote:This video doesn't seem to have been posted here yet. It far better footage of Corbett than what is normally seen around the place.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JLplicqexA

Nice post thank you - it is the best footage of the Corbett-Fitzsimmons fight I have seen; some of the other footage looks like it might be from the Corbett-Courtney fight, (from The Kinetoscope Exhibiting Co.) - an exhibition fight with a staged KD.

Louis retained his punching power in 1946. I think it's certainly possible he could still blast out Frazier at this stage.

The Louis who face Baer at 21 had the best chance. He was sharp as Hell and trained to the minute... The '46 version led a very sloppy and indulgent lifestyle. He certainly wasn't sharp or a world class athlete.... After the exit of Schmeling, Louis lacked a competitive field and got away with murder.

Many say Patterson had the fastest hands of all.

Ali the quickest feet.

Corbett was highly scientific and fast for his era, but his speed was probably exaggerated because fighters of that time were often plodders. He supposedly was kicking the lumbering James J. Jeffries rear for more than 20 rounds before getting nailed with the KO punch.

He had problems with guys who were decent boxers and possessed quickness, such as Fitzsimmons and also one of the great black fighters of the era, Peter Jackson.

I think Corbett had a remarkably short career, especially during a period when fighters often fought several times weekly.

It would be difficult to get a true grasp on his abilities and actual speed, especially in comparison to today's boxers or Ali.

Whoever was faster, the much bigger and stronger Ali would have had little problem with the smallish turn of the 20th century Corbett.

SenorPipino wrote: ↑01 Nov 2017, 17:15 Many say Patterson had the fastest hands of all.

Ali the quickest feet.

Corbett was highly scientific and fast for his era, but his speed was probably exaggerated because fighters of that time were often plodders. He supposedly was kicking the lumbering James J. Jeffries rear for more than 20 rounds before getting nailed with the KO punch.

He had problems with guys who were decent boxers and possessed quickness, such as Fitzsimmons and also one of the great black fighters of the era, Peter Jackson.

I think Corbett had a remarkably short career, especially during a period when fighters often fought several times weekly.

It would be difficult to get a true grasp on his abilities and actual speed, especially in comparison to today's boxers or Ali.

Whoever was faster, the much bigger and stronger Ali would have had little problem with the smallish turn of the 20th century Corbett.

From the newspaper accounts Corbett lost largely because he started trading with Jeffries whenever he thought the crowd was getting bored. I posted decent quality video so you can get a bit of an idea yourself though the footage is quite limited.

WRONG!!! ... You never think anything. Your skull has a vacancy sign on it.

Joe Frazier became known to the world because he's an Olympic Gold Medalist at Heavyweight (Ali never was) and because he clubbed the crap out of Chuvalo, Mathis, Quarry, and Ellis to become undisputed Heavyweight Champion... They cashed in on each others' fame, basically.

NO boxer ever became world famous without interacting with other boxers... But Ali fought Frazier after Joe's fame had been firmly established.