Eubank and Benn

[chief]

Tszyu's boxing ability was well above Gmans, no question.. Tszyu had an outstanding amateur background as shown by this bout vs a taller, rangier Vernon Forrest.. Watch how once he figures Forrest out, Tszyu moves in and out of range, beating his opponent to the punch, quality...

Nb: the you tube vid is bad quality.. Go to this fellas myspace blog and check it out:

http://www.myspace.com/amysowers

[jamesmcdonnell]

Jim - Understand your point about Eubank being more of a character than Witter and you're right but in my opinion it's very hard to say how it could have turned out had Hatton/Witter had the same level of exposure from the off.

Let's imagine for a moment that all of Hatton's career had been on terrestrial tv. By the time he started defending his WBU title I think he would have been pretty big news on his own, I think the Magee fight would have been a big domestic showdown in it's own right.

And then Witter starts to get built up, fighting Hatton's old foes etc, a few one punch finishes in there to boot... As a couple of others have said, Eubank was involved in plenty of stinkers himself. Maybe Eubank did go to the well more but Witter hasn't really had to, again if my fantasy big fights with Hatton had happened on ITV at 8pm on Saturday night with 15m watching you might well have seen Witter go to previously unseen reserves.

Sure he hasn't got that almost theatrical prescence of a Eubank (who has?!!) but I still think Witter could have been built as a worthy domestic adversary to Hatton.

Anyway it's all bollox and totally hypothetical, it didn't happen, all of Hattons career has been on Sky (and most of Witters)

Right, so which of Hatton's old foes would Witter have dominated in impressive fashion.

Given that he looked terrible against Lynes and Kotelnik recently, and wasn't knocking ANYONE of any note out prior to the Judah fight, and then was feating on mostly absolutely patsies since then, give or take the odd fight, which of Hatton's old foes are you referring to?

Does it not occur to you, that given that allegedly is a very experienced promoter, that if there was much mileage in making Witter a star, Warren would have invested heavily in him? Warren made the decision early on it seems, that Hatton was the man with the future, and whislt Warren might have been wrong to do so, 20 years in the business would suggest he knows a little more about boxing promotion than you or I.

The likes of Magee or Thaxton for me, would have given Junior a very tough time. A fight with Magee would probably have been an absolute stinker, given that both are counter punchers, and Thaxton had the tools to get junior under pressure and make him work, which he doesn't like to do.

Witter hasn't gone to the well, because he fights ultra cautiously, which is precisely why for the public he is a bit of a turn off. Hatton by contrast, has always until recently gone barelling in there looking to smash his opponent up. Look at the early records of Hatton and Witter, Hatton was just bashing everyone put in front of him up, and in spectacular fashion too. That is why people turned up to see him fight in their droves.

[Goz]

I would have fancied Witter to cut something of a swathe through Stephen Smith, Pendleton, Roswell, Bailey, Rowland, Pep a couple of those Eastern European chaps and yes I would have fancied him to do Thaxton as well. I think he did Lauri quicker than Ricky as well.

I think Witter would have to go the well if he wanted to compete with Hatton.....

Does Warren know more about boxing promotion than me? Nah......

I just went into IT because it was more fun

[Phenomenal-Nutrition]

Here we go again, PN looking to grasp onto any opportunity to be-little Hattons achievement in beating Tszyu.

Remind me PN, what was your prediction of the Tszyu/Hatton fight?

Ahh that's right, Tszyu KO round 2.

Silly boy.

Hattons win over Tyszu was excellent and I was very suprised. Even Hattons biggest fans thought he wouldn't pull it off.

Hands up I picked it wrong BUT I've picked many fights right going against the rest of this board - ie Callazage-lacy, Taylor-BHOPs 1+2, DLH-Mayorga, Mosley-Collazo, Collazo-hatton (all the Hattonites went for an early night for Hatton I picked a close points fight). At the time most who knew boxing were going for Tyszu and without an iron chin Hatton would have been ko'd earlyish. In his prime Tyszu may well have Ko'd hatton. You can't be right everytime otherwise you'd be a betting millionaire. Whats your predictions looked like - right everytime?

However I rate benns win over a prime McCellan above Hattons win over Tyszu and I'm not the only 1. McCellan was a monster of a fighter top6 P4P in the Ring in a good era and beat Jones Jr in the Ams. He was an amazing athlete and basically the next Tommy Hearns. Bare in mind I'm not a fan of McCellan at all, which you'll see from my comments on other threads.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Well, how come Witter didn't cut a swathe through his first 17 opponents then? How come he had just four knockouts in his first 17 fights?

Admittedly a lot of those were four and six rounders, but if he was as devastating a puncher as your comments suggest, he would have stopped more than 4 surely?

[Taki...]

Anyone remember that TV show where Eubank and Benn squared off in a 'Gladiators' like series of events? Damn, but Benn wanted to win that badly. He was clearly a man not at ease with himself.

[Phenomenal-Nutrition]

There's nothing anti-witter or pro hatton about it. Witter quite simply does not, and never has been a ticket seller.

How many people were at Witter's first fight in his home town? What was it 3,000? I forget the exact number, but whether you like it or not, the paying simply do not warm to Witter.

When he fought N'dou, he started well knocking N'dou down three times, and was then jeered and booed by the end of the fight, the evidence speaks for itself.

Witter is a good fighter, maybe he could beat Hatton, maybe he couldn't, who knows, not me, that's for sure, but the fact is, he is not exciting anyone. His performance against Corley was dismal to watch, and even a stoppage win against Morua was a bore.

Now perhaps you find Junior fantastically exciting to watch, good for you mate, but sadly, the paying public don't agree. I've nothing against Witter whatsoever, I wish him all the luck in the world, but this is nothing to do with Witter/Hatton and their respective merits, I am telling you facts, the facts are borne out by how many tickets Witter shifts, which is not a lot.

Now if someone can point out to me some statistics which disprove me, and show that in fact Witter is a hugely popular fighter with a massive following and millions of ticket stubs to his credit, then go ahead, I'm waiting.

In the meantime, face facts and swallow it.

You know nothing about boxing promotion mate, if you think that Eubank and Witter are in even the same solar system in terms of marketability.

Eubank had the heart of a lion, and went to war when needed, and he threw more shots in a single round than Witter does sometimes in entire fights.

You're comments, are, as usual, utterly risible, and utterly devoid of understanding of anything other than your blind admiration for Witter.

Answer this question:

WOULD WITTER BE A BIGGER NAME IF HE FOUGHT HATTON ON NATIONAL TV WITH HATTON BRINGING PRESSURE AND WITTER LANDING HUGE COUNTER AFTER HUGE COUNTER AND EVENTUALLY STOPPING HATTON AFTER THEY BOTH TOOK A BEATING? (Not saying that would happen just saying IF IT DID)

Lets fornicate up another thread into a Hatton-Witter argument.

STFU I don't know anything about the promotional side of boxing. Selling a fight isn't simply Fighter A fans+ fighter b fans = Sales - its about the significance of the fight itself. Witter-Hatton would be far bigger than Hatton against Collazo/Urango/Maussa. Its like saying Mayweather-DLH isn't any bigger than DLH-Mayorga because PBF draws about the same as MAyorga. Well DLH-Mayweather is fornicating huge because the fight has significance just like Witter-Hatton.

Congratulations on turning this into another Hatton-Witter debate because I wasn't going too till you started chattign shit

[Phenomenal-Nutrition]

[
Right, so which of Hatton's old foes would Witter have dominated in impressive fashion..

Well he took out Lauri allot faster

[Goz]

Sorry I started it!

James - I never said Witter was a devastating puncher, just that he had that run of ko's after the Judah defeat which if broadcast nationally to a less pugalistically educated audience would have created something of a stir?

I think you've been accused of being anti-Witter too many times mate, I'm not one of these pro-Witter guys or anti-Hatton or whatever, was just trying to say I think they could have made a big rivalry out of it over the last few years, in fact we should be right in the middle of it!

On the plus side, the advantage of Hatton & Witter not getting embroiled in domestic scraps is that we are now seeing them up against the best in the world (hopefully consistently) which we never really did with Benn & Eubank.

[Phenomenal-Nutrition]

P4P = whos best if there the same size. I think McCellan would murder tyszu if they were the same size. Lets match up McCellan and Tyszu:

Power - McCellan by far
Hand Speed - McCellan
Jab - McCellan
Workrate/Stamina - equal
Defense - McCellan
Combinations - McCellan
Technique - McCellan
Chin - equal
Overal Boxing Ability - McCellan
Bodyshots - both were brutal

P4P Tyszus competition was better but wasnt that fantastic, good but not great

Don't forget Benn faced a prime McCellan, Tyszu was old ring rusty and past prime and fighting at 2am.

So tell me, what did McClellan achieve at 168 prior to losing to Benn, oh that's right, fekk all. How long was Kostya THE MAN at 140?

McClellan DID NOT have better boxing ability than Tszyu, his power was also untested at 168. More power by far? Tszyu iced Judah with one shot.

McClellan was a bit hitter at 160, but he had no pedigree whatsoever at 168. It's like Tszyu moving up to 147, and then claiming he's the dog's bollocks even before he's had a fight there.

Tszyu was old and somewhat rusty, but he was also rusty when he annihilated Sharmba Mitchell, and Hatton didn't just eke out a win, he dominated Kostya and made him quit on his stool.

You cannot just match up McClellan and Tszyu like that, look at Tszyu's reign as champion, look at how long he was the dominant force.

McClellan was moving up into the unknown, he was a 160 lber moving into nigel's territory. That is a totally different proposition.

FIRSTLY I said it was my opinion McCellan was P4P better than Tyszu - you jumped on that so I'll back it up.

How good was McCellans power at 168? Well he was inches away from sparking Nigel in 1 round and ruined Benn as a fighter - I'd say it was pretty brutal. Especially as he was HUGE and drained at 160 and big at 168. Analyse punching - McCellan not only blew out fighters very quickly it was the way he did it. His punches had so much speed and bodyweight behind them they generated amazing force

I rate McCellan as having better ability than Tyszu as he just seemed superior at sticking and moving and beat Jones JR in the AMs - very impressive stuff.

So what if Tyszu beat Shamba Mitchell - every top contender including relatively light hitting Mayweather are stopping Mitchell these days. Tyszu may have been the linear champ at 140 but he was also semi-retired and had lost his hunger.

[mrbassie]

What are you on about mate! He quit on his stool didn't he? How the fphuck can you eke out a win if you force someone to quit, get real!

Do you think Tszyu quit because he was bored? He quit because he was getting well and truly bashed up, look at Tszyu's face after the fight, he looked like he'd bitten a rottweiller's nose.

I think he's right, dominate isn't the right word. I had Tszyu a point up when he retired. Also, although I'm sure people will say "it's not a tickling contest" or some other bland admonishion, but Hatton wasn't doing nearly so well before he smacked Tszyu right in the bollocks as hard as he could right in front of the referee. I'm not saying he necessarily would have, but I think Tszyu could have won had the fight been more competently refereed

[jamesmcdonnell]

Well, we're all entitled to our opinions. The fact however is that a stoppage win is by definition a dominant win. When one fighter refuses to continue, he has been soundly beaten.

I doubt the punch in the nuts was much of a factor, given that Tszyu drove several low blows in himself.

[lvlarc]

P-N, if you're going to compare Tszyu to McClellan P4P, why not use their standings in offical P4P lists?

Going into the Hatton fight, I believe Tszyu was rated 3rd P4P by The Ring, behind Hopkins & Mayweather. Kostya achieved more, I think he wins.

[STP]

McClellan's career was over before it began, lads. Tszyu is an all-time great.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Precisely. Anyone who considers McClellan a bigger scalp than Tszyu, even a faded one, is quite frankly, mental.

[mrbassie]

Well, we're all entitled to our opinions. The fact however is that a stoppage win is by definition a dominant win. When one fighter refuses to continue, he has been soundly beaten.

I doubt the punch in the nuts was much of a factor, given that Tszyu drove several low blows in himself.

well, we can disagree over semantics then, I would say that if a fight is competitive then it is automatically not a domination. Anyway that's just me, I'm a pedant.

[Phenomenal-Nutrition]

P-N, if you're going to compare Tszyu to McClellan P4P, why not use their standings in offical P4P lists?

Going into the Hatton fight, I believe Tszyu was rated 3rd P4P by The Ring, behind Hopkins & Mayweather. Kostya achieved more, I think he wins.

In terms of achievements Tyszu is higher than McClellan in terms of whos the better fighter its McClellan all the way for me. Hopkins also had a better career than McClellan but I'd rank Benns win as greater than Jermaine Taylors recent wins.

The manner of a vistory and the state of the champion is important - no ones calling Leon Spinks an all time great Heavyweight for his victory over Ali. Fighting a young prime hungry fighter is different to fighting an old ring rusty fighter.

On a P4P scale McClellan was no6 while Tyszu was no3. Thats doesn't change the fact I'd rate McClellan as a better all round fighter. Look at the manner of his victories aswell as the fighters he fought - Julian Jackson and Mugabi were good wins but the manner of them was what elevates McClellan.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Whatever. It's pointless arguing with you, even when backed into a corner you come up with ever more spurious criteria to back up your initial fallacious assertion....yawn.

[Phenomenal-Nutrition]

In what way am I backed into a corner? You can't debate the points I make. I prove you wrong time and again and as always you mouth off but run from the debate/points when your proved wrong.

[Autobarn]

That he blew out a faded Mugabi and a half blind Jackson - in the 1st fight Carl King was guiding him, as if he couldn't see his opponent! - is great but it also highlights that McClellan didn't know what to do if a fight got long or rough. Something Tszyu - who's beaten all styles - knows plenty about.

Tszyu had skill, precision, patience and power. Few fighters have that special combination. Rare fighters like Lewis, Rafael Marquez, Ricardo Lopez, have that going for them.

Hopkins certainly hasn't had much destructive capabilities.

[caster]

Without question, the Mclellan who fought Benn was far more dangerous than the Tsyzu who fought Hatton - absolutely no doubt about it.

Tsyzu was well past his best, fought in another mans back garden , weight drained and also ring rusty...

[Taki...]

Without question, the Mclellan who fought Benn was far more dangerous than the Tsyzu who fought Hatton - absolutely no doubt about it.

Tsyzu was well past his best, fought in another mans back garden , weight drained and also ring rusty...

Most people base saying 'Tszyu was WELL past his best' on his performance against Hatton. Tszyu was an overwhelming favourite going in because he destroyed Sharmba Mitchell (which showed he still had both his power and timing) in very short fashion.
Tszyu spent much of his time fighting in other mens back gardens... it did Zab Judah no favours.
About the only thing you could argue is that Tszyu had lost some desire and possibly conditioning.

[caster]

Sharmba Mitchell was on the slide - its well known that Tsyzu had weight making problems. The other issues, such as ring rust, age etc are IMO facts. Tsyzu was nearly 36 when he fought Ricky - which is very old for a lower weight boxer.

Tsyzu never made any excuses about losing to Hatton - great Champions don't.

Hatton makes a lot of excuses when performing under par against carefully selected opponents.

[Autobarn]

Sharmbah Mitchell was still quality and still had fast hands. Look at the N'dou fight. Sure N'dou deserved to nick that one but it was close and if Mitchell was shot he'd have been badly bashed up.

Tszyu had been inactive but gave his last great performance vs Mitchell. Sure there were elements that made him out of sorts vs Hatton - 2am, Manchester, dropped in sparring by Emmanuel Augustus, didn't make weight 1st time - it wasn't his night - but NO ONE was lining up to face Tszyu.

Mayweather was in an absolute career fog, beating up his girlfriend, having his hoods break bottles on ppl's heads, being negative in the ring with unambitious opposition, not even consideirng fighting Tszyu. Gatti and Harris went for vacant paper titles.

Beating Tszyu is nothing to be taken for granted. Look at the state of Hatton's face at the end. Ricky's never been quite the same, has he - and no one expects him to be as good a champ as Tszyu despite beating him.

[Phenomenal-Nutrition]

1. dropped in sparring by Emmanuel Augustus, didn't make weight 1st time - it wasn't his night -

2. But NO ONE was lining up to face Tszyu..

1. Hadn't heard that, is it a good source?
2. Thought there was a few offers - a Mayweather fight was mooted but Mayweather wanted more than Tyszus handlers were prepared. There was a Harris fight they were talking about. And they were talking about a career end of fighting Spinks/Mosley/DLH. As crazy as it sounds now some were saying Tyszu could jump up to 154 and beat Winky Wright because the way Tyszu handles southpaws