BoxRec

granberry wrote:

Sir Psycho Sexy wrote:He is and he isn't. His record his nonsense. He got more gift decisions than anyone in history, but name another Heavyweight that has big wins over other good champions: Liston, Frazier and Foreman. I understand the hate, but don't confuse that with thinking Ali wasn't good. That is nonsense. He is a very boring fighter though in the ring although he was larger than life outside of it.

Frazier knocked Ali FLAT ON HIS BACK.

Did you miss that one?

No, he also won a fight, officially two.

BoxBuzz wrote:

KOJOE90 wrote:

barry wrote:>>>Don't we get this thread about every four months on this forum?<<<

I've seen where threads like this come from! Some kid is usually talking with their father, who himself knows nothing about boxing, and dad says...all Ali did was run from opponents, which dad most likely heard this from one of his clueless buddies and decided to take the stance...and from that the kid makes the kind of comments like the thread-starter here!!!

Reminds me of something that happened to me when I was about 18. I was in hospital recovering from an operation, 48 hours of lying in bed with minimum movement allowed etc.

In the same ward as me there were three blokes all in there 60's, they started talking about Henry Cooper. The topic of the first Ali fight came up. The three then had a long discussion about if Ali hadn't had 15 minutes to recover from the knockdown Cooper would have been crowned Heavyweight Champion of the World that night.

From my bed I shouted over to them and as polite as I could tried to point out the many, many errors in there statements. But they were not interested I was just a young teenager who wasn't even alive when the fight happen so knew nothing.

They just didn't want to listen to me, they were older than me so knew best.

The way I heard it was that it was just about sundown when Henry knocked Cassius down and Dundee snookered the ref into calling the fight on account of darkness, Ali was then given all night to rest while Henry was forced to wait in his corner......after a full nights rest Ali was ushered back into the ring and the two men then picked up the fight from the knockdown.

I've spent a lot of time studying US history, literature, art, etc... and when it comes to the mother tongue and US English I consider myself bi-lingual but I've never heard one of my American cousins use the word 'snookered' before. Either this word is common parlance in the US and has slipped under my radar or we have closet anglophile in our midst... someone warm up the beer. We may have a convert!!!!!

Care to help me out on this one, Buzz?

Sir Psycho Sexy wrote:

granberry wrote:

Sir Psycho Sexy wrote:He is and he isn't. His record his nonsense. He got more gift decisions than anyone in history, but name another Heavyweight that has big wins over other good champions: Liston, Frazier and Foreman. I understand the hate, but don't confuse that with thinking Ali wasn't good. That is nonsense. He is a very boring fighter though in the ring although he was larger than life outside of it.

Frazier knocked Ali FLAT ON HIS BACK.

Did you miss that one?

No, he also won a fight, officially two.

When Ali and Frazier got into the ring as undefeated fighters

Ali left the ring as a defeated fighter.

Frazier knocked Ali flat on his back in the 15th round.

Frazier also knocked Ali down in the 11th

but the 'referee', who had stuck his fingers in Frazier's eye in the previous round, called it a "slip."

For the rest of the 11th round, Ali staggered around so badly that even Ali salesman Ferdie Pacheco called it "the terrible 11th" in a book he wrote.

Frazier's manager and trainer Yank Durham was alive and present for that fight, so Eddie Futch had no opportunity to betray Frazier.

The other two fights are of no significance, except of course to Ali partisans who are desperate to hide from the fact that Joe Frazier (who no one ever called the greatest fighter of all time), beat the hell out of undefeated Ali and knocked him flat on his back.

They can't swallow that, so they awkwardly try to focus attention away from that.

granberry wrote:

Sir Psycho Sexy wrote:

granberry wrote: Frazier knocked Ali FLAT ON HIS BACK.

Did you miss that one?

No, he also won a fight, officially two.

When Ali and Frazier got into the ring as undefeated fighters

Ali left the ring as a defeated fighter.

Frazier knocked Ali flat on his back in the 15th round.

Frazier also knocked Ali down in the 11th

but the 'referee', who had stuck his fingers in Frazier's eye in the previous round, called it a "slip."

For the rest of the 11th round, Ali staggered around so badly that even Ali salesman Ferdie Pacheco called it "the terrible 11th" in a book he wrote.

Frazier's manager and trainer Yank Durham was alive and present for that fight, so Eddie Futch had no opportunity to betray Frazier.

The other two fights are of no significance, except of course to Ali partisans who are desperate to hide from the fact that Joe Frazier (who no one ever called the greatest fighter of all time), beat the hell out of undefeated Ali and knocked him flat on his back.

They can't swallow that, so they awkwardly try to focus attention away from that.

Watching that 11th round now it's surprising it wasn't stopped. Watch the 11th and then watch Ali's TKO of Lyle and ask yourself who's taking the greater punishment.

yes,flat on his back...for what was it a 3 count? 4 maybe?

Ezzard wrote: Watching that 11th round now it's surprising it wasn't stopped. Watch the 11th and then watch Ali's TKO of Lyle and ask yourself who's taking the greater punishment.

Thank you for that, Ezzard.

The referee in Frazier-Ali I was Arthur Merchante, who was working as hard as he could for Ali throughout the fight.

So of course he wasn't going to stop it.

Merchante---

1---stuck his fingers in Fraziers eye in the 10th round

2---called a clear knockdown of Ali by Frazier at the beginning of the 11th round a "slip"

3---hacked at Frazier's arms constantly during the clinches even though Ali was making the clinches

4---threw his body frantically in front of Frazier and hugged him at the end of every round, as if he was terrified Frazier was going to hit Ali after the bell.
While he did this Merchante had his back to Ali each time.

Merchante was a piece of garbage as a referee.

Watch Merchante kick Ernie Shavers in the head (hard) when Shavers went down in the Quarry fight.

Bill Celender wrote:yes,flat on his back...for what was it a 3 count? 4 maybe?

Yes. FLAT ON HIS BACK.

Live with it, Bill.

Joe Frazier knocked Ali flat on his back.

have you ever heard of Ken Norton? He broke Ali's jaw in the 2nd round of their first fight. Believe it or not but the greatest of all time kept going, and hell he fought 10 rounds with a broken jaw, and lost a SD. So when you base the fact that Ali isn't the best of all time on a lucky punch, remember that fun fact

Bill Celender wrote:have you ever heard of Ken Norton? He broke Ali's jaw in the 2nd round of their first fight. Believe it or not but the greatest of all time kept going, and hell he fought 10 rounds with a broken jaw, and lost a SD. So when you base the fact that Ali isn't the best of all time on a lucky punch, remember that fun fact

I rate Ali #1 in my ATG HW list, but Norton clearly won that fight and pretty much mugged Ali. No one really knows in which round Ali suffered the broken jaw, but I doubt that it was as early as the 2nd.

granberry wrote:

Ezzard wrote: Watching that 11th round now it's surprising it wasn't stopped. Watch the 11th and then watch Ali's TKO of Lyle and ask yourself who's taking the greater punishment.

Thank you for that, Ezzard.

Amen. The Lyle fight was stopped WAY too quickly.

Bill Celender wrote:have you ever heard of Ken Norton? He broke Ali's jaw in the 2nd round of their first fight. Believe it or not but the greatest of all time kept going, and hell he fought 10 rounds with a broken jaw, and lost a SD. So when you base the fact that Ali isn't the best of all time on a lucky punch, remember that fun fact

Now you are quoting Ali shill Angelo Dundee's propaganda.

Ali had his jaw broken late in that fight.

It was Sonny Liston who fought for 6 rounds with a broken jaw against Marty Marshall. In a fight when he was a nobody.

But the SAME Sonny Liston quit in his corner with a sore shoulder to give up the heavyweight championship? Don't make me laugh.

Dundee and Ferdie Pacheco are shameless shills for the Ali industry.

They think selling Ali makes them look good, since they were connected with him.

Ali certainly quit quickly in his corner after Larry Holmes finally threw some serious punches at the end of the 10 round, didn't he. What a hero.

Tommy Morrison fought most of his fight against Joe Hipp with a broken jaw I seem to remember.

The Great John L wrote:

granberry wrote:

Ezzard wrote: Watching that 11th round now it's surprising it wasn't stopped. Watch the 11th and then watch Ali's TKO of Lyle and ask yourself who's taking the greater punishment.

Thank you for that, Ezzard.

Amen. The Lyle fight was stopped WAY too quickly.

Lyle's cornerman Chickie Ferraro said to Don Dunphy after the fight,

"It wasn't kosher."

granberry wrote:It was Sonny Liston who fought for 6 rounds with a broken jaw against Marty Marshall. In a fight when he was a nobody.

But the SAME Sonny Liston quit in his corner with a sore shoulder to give up the heavyweight championship? Don't make me laugh.

It’s an interesting thought that many others have posted as well, but the key to the puzzle is probably contained in your post. It’s much more likely for a fighter to fight through pain and adversity when they are a nobody trying to establish themselves and make money, than when they are already established and have money. There was nothing in the Ali fight that indicated that Liston would have been able to win, and it’s understandable that he would look for a way out after chasing Ali and hitting mostly air.

More remarkable are some of the beatings that Ali endured later in his career when he was relying on guile and toughness to compensate for his diminishing skills.

The Great John L wrote:

granberry wrote:It was Sonny Liston who fought for 6 rounds with a broken jaw against Marty Marshall. In a fight when he was a nobody.

But the SAME Sonny Liston quit in his corner with a sore shoulder to give up the heavyweight championship? Don't make me laugh.

It’s an interesting thought that many others have posted as well, but the key to the puzzle is probably contained in your post. It’s much more likely for a fighter to fight through pain and adversity when they are a nobody trying to establish themselves and make money, than when they are already established and have money. There was nothing in the Ali fight that indicated that Liston would have been able to win, and it’s understandable that he would look for a way out after chasing Ali and hitting mostly air.

More remarkable are some of the beatings that Ali endured later in his career when he was relying on guile and toughness to compensate for his diminishing skills.

Sounds like you missed Liston's fights against Cleveland Williams (twice), Mike DeJohn, Zora Folley, Eddie Machen, etc.

The fake first Liston-Ali fight was greeted with derision at the time it happened.

Since that time the Ali industry has taken on the task of trying to justify that garbage as legitimate.

Ali had just been beaten up by Doug Jones and Henry Cooper, both 25 pounds smaller than he was.

Either his last two fights right before he "won" the title, with Doug Jones and Henry Cooper were fakes on Ali's part,

or the Liston fight following was a fake on Liston's part.

No one who struggled with Doug Jones and Henry Cooper as Ali did would have a chance against the real Liston.

granberry wrote:Sounds like you missed Liston's fights against Cleveland Williams (twice, Mike DeJohn, Zora Folley, Eddie Machen, etc.

Did you even read my post, or maybe you aren’t aware that those fights occurred before Liston won the title? I’m sure that Liston made good money for those fights, but the really big money didn’t come into play until he squashed Floyd and became the champ. And like many before and since, I’m sure his desire dropped a notch or two once he reached the top. It’s a pretty simple concept, and much more likely than Sonny throwing the fight.

The Great John L wrote:

granberry wrote:Sounds like you missed Liston's fights against Cleveland Williams (twice, Mike DeJohn, Zora Folley, Eddie Machen, etc.

Did you even read my post, or maybe you aren’t aware that those fights occurred before Liston won the title? I’m sure that Liston made good money for those fights, but the really big money didn’t come into play until he squashed Floyd and became the champ. And like many before and since, I’m sure his desire dropped a notch or two once he reached the top. It’s a pretty simple concept, and much more likely than Sonny throwing the fight.

How much do you know about the mob?

What contact have you had with the mob?

Liston was with the mob.

He did what he was told.

I detest Ali but I have nothing on this granberry guy You woud think Ali was Hitler.

Sir Psycho wrote:I detest Ali but I have nothing on this granberry guy You woud think Ali was Hitler.

Ali was a fighter who was beaten up by Doug Jones and Henry Cooper but then was supposedly able to beat Sonny Liston.

After his fake one punch knockout over Liston, in his very next fight
Ali showed he had no punching power at all against a sore-backed Patterson.

Ali's magic Liston "punch" was also completely absent as he struggled for 39 rounds with Ken Norton, 30 rounds with Leon Spinks, and tried as hard as he could to KO Terrell with his circular slaps without ever scoring a knockdown.

We are instructed to thrill to Ali's win over Cleveland Williams, who was missing one kidney, ten feet of his small intestine, and had a shriveled left leg from the nerve damage from the bullet he was shot with a year and a half before he "fought" Ali.

Joe Frazier knocked Ali flat on his back and beat him thoroughly, Jimmy Young gave Ali a boxing lesson to end all boxing lessons

but the news media, who collectively never had a single fight out on the playground at school, instruct us that their Ali was the greatest of all time (whatever that means).

granberry wrote:[and tried as hard as he could to KO Terrell with his circular slaps without ever scoring a knockdown.
).

HILARIOUS!!! Pure unadulterated Trolling at it's finest.....

My suggestions?

1. Crack open a book

2. put down the crack

3. strive for comprehension

He is over the top but so called respected writers or so called experts totally shill the career of Ali. He had a great career so don't lump me in with granberry but I have heard expert basically masturbate over Ali career and particular fights in which he was vastly unimpressive or received complete gift decisions. Anyone who claims ALI BEAT sHAVERS, nORTON IN THE third fight or Young has an agenda and should not be taken seriously on Ali's career. Additionally, people who don't question at least one of the Liston fights have an agenda as well. Liston took a dive and the fact that the second fight is even debated shows you how biased the media is. They are more intrested in creating a myth than covering an event.

Joe Bugner went the distance with Ali and Frazier so is he the best heavyweight ever

BoxBuzz wrote:

granberry wrote:[and tried as hard as he could to KO Terrell with his circular slaps without ever scoring a knockdown.
).

HILARIOUS!!! Pure unadulterated Trolling at it's finest.....

My suggestions?

1. Crack open a book

2. put down the crack

3. strive for comprehension

You think Ali DID KO Terrell ?

And you accuse others of being on crack?

granberry wrote:

BoxBuzz wrote:

granberry wrote:[and tried as hard as he could to KO Terrell with his circular slaps without ever scoring a knockdown.
).

HILARIOUS!!! Pure unadulterated Trolling at it's finest.....

My suggestions?

1. Crack open a book

2. put down the crack

3. strive for comprehension

You think Ali DID KO Terrell ?

And you accuse others of being on crack?

Granberry Granberry Granberry.....I said no such thing....You are quite correct he did not score a knockdown or a knockout. And we will leave it at that. Good to know that you percieve that these are the details of that particular fight that are worth focusing on. Probably tells the whole story of that fight. When we need relevant information about a particular event it appears we can turn to you for the cliff notes, highlights and sentinel moments of such encounters. Enjoy the rest of your recreational high.

granberry wrote:

Sir Psycho wrote:I detest Ali but I have nothing on this granberry guy You woud think Ali was Hitler.

Ali was a fighter who was beaten up by Doug Jones and Henry Cooper but then was supposedly able to beat Sonny Liston.

After his fake one punch knockout over Liston, in his very next fight
Ali showed he had no punching power at all against a sore-backed Patterson.

Ali's magic Liston "punch" was also completely absent as he struggled for 39 rounds with Ken Norton, 30 rounds with Leon Spinks, and tried as hard as he could to KO Terrell with his circular slaps without ever scoring a knockdown.

We are instructed to thrill to Ali's win over Cleveland Williams, who was missing one kidney, ten feet of his small intestine, and had a shriveled left leg from the nerve damage from the bullet he was shot with a year and a half before he "fought" Ali.

Joe Frazier knocked Ali flat on his back and beat him thoroughly, Jimmy Young gave Ali a boxing lesson to end all boxing lessons

but the news media, who collectively never had a single fight out on the playground at school, instruct us that their Ali was the greatest of all time (whatever that means).

Hilarious.

I suggest you try and obtain copies of those fights as you obviously haven't seen any of them.

See if you can get someone who actually knows something about boxing to watch them with you and explain such things as what a jab is, how long a round is, which fighter is which etc.

Clown.