Alltime Australian top 20

[shell09]

Don't worry about it, the last lines proves shell has zero credibility...

MARLIN, Why don't you show us your invaluable knowledge and post a list?

You're quick to criticise but fail to offer much in terms of substance, except that Vic Darchinyan should be considered if he happend to win a few more titles at different weight divisions

No shit Einstein ? Are you sure that would be enough ???

[Marlin]

Don't worry about it, the last lines proves shell has zero credibility...

MARLIN, Why don't you show us your invaluable knowledge and post a list?

You're quick to criticise but fail to offer much in terms of substance, except that Vic Darchinyan should be considered if he happend to win a few more titles at different weight divisions

No shit Einstein ? Are you sure that would be enough ???

Good one shell. That is just the same as saying Mundine fits in with the all time greats in five years. (Would that be five years worth of 'tune ups'?)

I said right at the start I am too young to really come up with an All Time List... but I am old enough to know that Anthony Mundine is no all time great and that fighting 'tune ups' for an entire career to hone his skills (because after eight years and eight “World Title” fights he is far too inexperienced to take on a real challenger) won’t get him there.


Keep trying

[shell09]

MARLIN the difference is that I simply stated that Mundine will be ranked an alltime Australian great within 4 to 5 years. That's an statement based on personal opinion.

You stated that Vic "could" be rated an Australian ATG "IF" he achieved a level of legendary status....greatness that would leave little doubt in most peoples minds.

Keep fishing Marlin, I aint biting anymore.

CAP, Bob Fitzsimmons is considered by most as an Englishman. That said I wouldn't rate Joe Bugner Australian so I'll leave that one.

I'd be surprised if Peter Jackson ever considered himself an Australian so I'm not going to either, even if others do. It's a bit like Phar Lap I guess, if they were no good they wouldn't be considered as Aussies...very selective.

Joe Goddard was a very interesting one because he had a great record until the later part of his career and I must admit I gave him no consideration. After going over his record I doubt that I could have found a spot for him alongside the 15 I mentioned, the same reason I left out guys like Ambrose Palmer, Tommy Burns, Barry Michaels and Lester Ellis.

It's all very subjective and revolves around one's exposure to the sport.

[Marlin]

MARLIN the difference is that I simply stated that Mundine will be ranked an alltime Australian great within 4 to 5 years. That's an statement based on personal opinion.

You stated that Vic "could" be rated an Australian ATG "IF" he achieved a level of legendary status....greatness that would leave little doubt in most peoples minds.

Keep fishing Marlin, I aint biting anymore.

Yeah silly me for thinking that Vic could be considered an all time great if he actually achieved something... besides my real question was "I wonder how much more Vic Darchinyan would have to do to be considered?". I was wondering what you would have to achieve to break into that all time status. Not every Title holder is an all time great. Some of us even think you have to do more than beat Rashid Matumla and Rico Chong Nee to be considered an all time great!

Oh and BTW here is my original post:

Can't wait to see a few lists posted here. I think I am really to young to contribute myself. I would be going off records and old tapes. However I think I can pick a few of the more notable names that will appear, Darcy, Carruthers, Fenech, Kostya, to name just a few. I wonder how much more Vic Darchinyan would have to do to be considered? If he can unify or win Titles in a couple more weight classes he would have to be knocking on the door...

Not sure where I mentioned "level of legendary status....greatness that would leave little doubt in most peoples minds". As I mentioned earlier not every Title holder is an all time great...

Keep up the good work shell

[shell09]

Not sure where I mentioned "level of legendary status....greatness that would leave little doubt in most peoples minds". As I mentioned earlier not every Title holder is an all time great...

Keep up the good work shell

If I was talking to you I would speak more slowly but seeing as though I'm writing I'm not sure what to do

I-s T-h-i-s B-e-t-t-e-r ?

What I was saying was that IF he achieved what you suggested he MAY, then......(now this is where I'm chipping in) it would be considered legendary status, greatness that would leave little doubt in most peoples minds.

This was in response to you suggesting he COULD be considered IF he won titles in multiple divisions.

In other words there is no "could" about it. He WOULD be ranked.

Understanding?

[Marlin]

So you think every multi weight champion is automatically ranked in the top 15 of all time... Yeah I understand... that is a good one

[shell09]

So you think every multi weight champion is automatically ranked in the top 15 of all time... Yeah I understand... that is a good one

We are talking about the Alltime Australian Top 20 aren't we?

You find me an Australian that has won world titles in multiple weight divisions and I'll find you a place in that group.

Your comments are quite bizarre at times. Are you lonely and looking for a date or is this your way of sparring?

[Marlin]

So you think every multi weight champion is automatically ranked in the top 15 of all time... Yeah I understand... that is a good one

We are talking about the Alltime Australian Top 20 aren't we?

You find me an Australian that has won world titles in multiple weight divisions and I'll find you a place in that group.

Your comments are quite bizarre at times. Are you lonely and looking for a date or is this your way of sparring?

You said you only wanted to do 15 so I kept it to that.

Danny Green is a multi weight title holder having held the WBC Interim Super Middleweight Title (which is probably more legitimate than the WBA 'regular' belt that Mundine holds) and the WBA Light Heavyweight Title. Now I am a big Danny Green fan but I'm not sure he is an all time great...

I also tried to explain that not every Title holder is an all time great, in the same vein not every multi weight title holder deserves 'legendary status'... hence my reasonable question which you have tried to blow out of proportion.

You can always tell someone is struggling for a valid points when they turn to personal insults and only reply to part of your post.

Have a nice Australia day mate

[Cap]

MARLIN the difference is that I simply stated that Mundine will be ranked an alltime Australian great within 4 to 5 years. That's an statement based on personal opinion.

You stated that Vic "could" be rated an Australian ATG "IF" he achieved a level of legendary status....greatness that would leave little doubt in most peoples minds.

Keep fishing Marlin, I aint biting anymore.

CAP, Bob Fitzsimmons is considered by most as an Englishman. That said I wouldn't rate Joe Bugner Australian so I'll leave that one.

I'd be surprised if Peter Jackson ever considered himself an Australian so I'm not going to either, even if others do. It's a bit like Phar Lap I guess, if they were no good they wouldn't be considered as Aussies...very selective.

Joe Goddard was a very interesting one because he had a great record until the later part of his career and I must admit I gave him no consideration. After going over his record I doubt that I could have found a spot for him alongside the 15 I mentioned, the same reason I left out guys like Ambrose Palmer, Tommy Burns, Barry Michaels and Lester Ellis.

It's all very subjective and revolves around one's exposure to the sport.

Wait a sec. I know I'm only a Canuck, but you include Kostya Tszyu, a Russian, but don't want to include Bob Fitzsimmons and Peter Jackson who both learned their craft and fought their first pro fights in OZ? Tres bizarre. During their early days they were both considered Aussies, and I believe Jackson ended up there.

You include George Powell. The same guy who lost to Griffo and got ko'd by George Mackenzie? Yet you fail to find a spot for Joe Goddard who fought a draw with the great Peter Jackson, went unbeaten for four years, knocking out, amongst others, HOFer Joe Choynski and Big Joe McAuliffe? His loss to Denver Ed Smith was more due to alcohol abuse and lack of condition than anything, and he later knocked out Smith in 4 rounds. Goddard, the Barrier Champion, was one of the giants of the 19th century.

Any list of all time Australian greats has to include Bob Fitzsimmons, Peter Jackson, Frank Slavin, and Joe Goddard right off the top.

Cap

[Brute]

Actually, I seem to be the first to mention these other fellows. I'm surprised Slavin and Palmer got mentioned when they ignore the other old time greats.

Cap

Considering that in a ten year career, Ambrose Palmer only lost seven fights and four of them were disqualifications against men he later beat, the other three being against Gus Lesnevich, Young Stribling and "Deacon" Leo Kelly (who he beat in two other fights) it was a bit hard to leave him out.

[Cap]

Poor wording on my part. I meant that I was surprised that two old timers like Slavin and Palmer were mentioned while other old timers were ignored. Seemed to be lists of mostly modern guys.

Cap

[Brute]

Fair enough. Ambrose was a successful trainer too, taking Johnny Famechon to the World Featherweight title.

[shell09]

Wait a sec. I know I'm only a Canuck, but you include Kostya Tszyu, a Russian, but don't want to include Bob Fitzsimmons and Peter Jackson who both learned their craft and fought their first pro fights in OZ? Tres bizarre. During their early days they were both considered Aussies, and I believe Jackson ended up there.

You include George Powell. The same guy who lost to Griffo and got ko'd by George Mackenzie? Yet you fail to find a spot for Joe Goddard who fought a draw with the great Peter Jackson, went unbeaten for four years, knocking out, amongst others, HOFer Joe Choynski and Big Joe McAuliffe? His loss to Denver Ed Smith was more due to alcohol abuse and lack of condition than anything, and he later knocked out Smith in 4 rounds. Goddard, the Barrier Champion, was one of the giants of the 19th century.

Any list of all time Australian greats has to include Bob Fitzsimmons, Peter Jackson, Frank Slavin, and Joe Goddard right off the top.

Cap

As I stated, being subjective it depends on personal opinion, including who you believe fits under the banner of an Australian fighter. There's no right or wrong answer and that goes for your demand that Frank Slavin and Joe Goddard be included which I disagree.

As for the "Australian issue" My opinion is that considering KOSTYA TSZYU FOUGHT EVERY PROFESSIONAL FIGHT UNDER THE AUSTRALIAN BANNER he fits my criteria, not so with Bob Fitzsimmons who fought the better part of his career under the banner of an Englishman. Is that simple enough for you?

Peter Jackson is questionable although as I said previously, "Do you think he considered himself Australian?" If so then sure although I'm of the belief he considered himself an "Island Boy" as many of those from the region that come to Australia still do.

As for George Powell, his record on Boxrec is incomplete as is his newphew's (Artie Powell) to such an extent that it gives a very poor indication of what both really achieved. George Powell's fight with Young Griffo was exceptionally close and he was one of the best at the time.

From one of Sydney's leading papers 1912 under the title ARTIE POWELL;

"This boy comes from good fighting stock being newphew of Ned and George Powell. Ned was one of the greatest knuckle fighters Australia has produced. He seconded and trained Peter Jackson for the contest with Farnan. Peter and Ned became unfriendly, and meeting some days after the contest, at the foot of Market Street, they quarrelled. Although the sable warrior was my ideal of a boxer and a man, I have to admit that he had not the better of the argument that followed for I saw the fight. I do not mean to say that Ned Powell would have had a chance with the mighty Peter. He would not make middle-weight; but while they were at it there was nothing in it, and that tells you what sort of antagonist Powell was.

Artie's uncle George was one of the best feathers we ever produced-in other words one of the best feather-weights the world ever saw, for he was in the days of Griffo, Murphy, Peakes and company the best feather-weights that ever lived. The late Tim Hegarty, worthy of being bracketed with this famous quartet, came just a little bit later. So much for Artie's forbearars. As regards the youth himself, he is taller than the average, fast and cleaver beyond the average, and now that he has finished growing has the stamina necessary for him to see the journey through. He is the goods."

* ********************* *

No, I don't think the article magically insinuates that he should now be presented into the Hall of Fame and a statue erected outside Newtown Railway station. I just thought some would find it interesting while giving an indication that he was at least worthy of consideration of an Australian ATG ranking.

BTW, the article was copied word for word including some bizarre punctuation that may or may not be incorrect.

[Brute]

MARLIN the difference is that I simply stated that Mundine will be ranked an alltime Australian great within 4 to 5 years. That's an statement based on personal opinion.

You stated that Vic "could" be rated an Australian ATG "IF" he achieved a level of legendary status....greatness that would leave little doubt in most peoples minds.

Keep fishing Marlin, I aint biting anymore.

CAP, Bob Fitzsimmons is considered by most as an Englishman. That said I wouldn't rate Joe Bugner Australian so I'll leave that one.

I'd be surprised if Peter Jackson ever considered himself an Australian so I'm not going to either, even if others do. It's a bit like Phar Lap I guess, if they were no good they wouldn't be considered as Aussies...very selective.

Joe Goddard was a very interesting one because he had a great record until the later part of his career and I must admit I gave him no consideration. After going over his record I doubt that I could have found a spot for him alongside the 15 I mentioned, the same reason I left out guys like Ambrose Palmer, Tommy Burns, Barry Michaels and Lester Ellis.

It's all very subjective and revolves around one's exposure to the sport.

Wait a sec. I know I'm only a Canuck, but you include Kostya Tszyu, a Russian, but don't want to include Bob Fitzsimmons and Peter Jackson who both learned their craft and fought their first pro fights in OZ? Tres bizarre. During their early days they were both considered Aussies, and I believe Jackson ended up there.

You include George Powell. The same guy who lost to Griffo and got ko'd by George Mackenzie? Yet you fail to find a spot for Joe Goddard who fought a draw with the great Peter Jackson, went unbeaten for four years, knocking out, amongst others, HOFer Joe Choynski and Big Joe McAuliffe? His loss to Denver Ed Smith was more due to alcohol abuse and lack of condition than anything, and he later knocked out Smith in 4 rounds. Goddard, the Barrier Champion, was one of the giants of the 19th century.

Any list of all time Australian greats has to include Bob Fitzsimmons, Peter Jackson, Frank Slavin, and Joe Goddard right off the top.

Cap

Kostya Tszyu became an Australian citizen as soon as it was permitted under immigration laws. He has been an Australian citizen or resident for his entire professional career. Bob Fitzsimmons was born in England, but moved to New Zealand as a very young child, and as far as I know never returned to England. He started his professional career in Sydney and later fought his most important fights in North America, but his home was always in New Zealand. Peter Jackson came to Australia with his family as a two year old. A natural athlete, he was working on the ferries in Sydney when he learned to box from Larry Foley in George Street, Sydney. He won the Australian Heavyweight title before going to America to chase the world champion Sullivan, who ducked him. After fighting in America and England he returned to Australia to die and is buried in Brisbane. I would say that he considered himself Australian.

[shell09]

Peter Jackson came to Australia with his family as a two year old. A natural athlete, he was working on the ferries in Sydney when he learned to box from Larry Foley in George Street, Sydney. He won the Australian Heavyweight title before going to America to chase the world champion Sullivan, who ducked him. After fighting in America and England he returned to Australia to die and is buried in Brisbane. I would say that he considered himself Australian.

I wanted to wait until I talked to the in-laws before I responded to this as I was unaware of certain claims made in this post.

When the time came I started off explaining that I had posted a "Top 15 greatest ever Australian fighters" and being as smart as I am, first mentioned that that I had placed George Powell within the group.

Not much said although the nodding of the heads told me that they agreed (as one would expect.)

I then explained that I had left out Peter Jackson based on the fact that he was not born in Australia, and due in part to the prejudices towards "coloured persons" in this country at the time and a pride instilled by his parents towards his place of birth....

By then those within earshot were staring at me with an incredulous gaze, except my husband who had quitely left to room in an attempt to avoid any implication with such stupidity. I had no other option but to finish with the words, "but after discussing it with others on the forum I thought I could be mistaken so I just wanted to check it out with you guys."

Guess I better find a spot for him.