Ezzard wrote:There are certain fighters who rarely get picked against in mythical match ups.
I'm interested in guys generally rated well below the greats mentioned here who you would pick to win.
Ali
Who are the potential Ken Nortons out there?
I think 2 types of fighter spring to mind: swarmers and defensive minded fighters.
The left hook seems so important in beating Ali. Considering the blue print of Frazier I'd have to go with Jack Dempsey having a great chance at beating Ali. The other fighter who reallys stands out as having the tools and style is Jersey Joe Walcott.
Louis
Louis would seem to be vulnerable to great punchers who were also great finishers and a skilled mover could also give him plenty of trouble.
Of the latter category I'd fancy Tunney as a very tricky match up for Louis. If Joe had met Ezzard Charles in his prime he'd have been the favourite but could Charles have boxed his way to a decision?
Whilst Joe got up to wreak havoc on the not so great fighters who floored him could he have done the same thing if he'd have been dropped by a Foreman or Liston? A great finisher like Dempsey might once again have a great chance of an upset here. Tyson was also a great finisher and could get the job done early if he managed to drop and shake Louis up. Demspey and Tyson are a dman sight better than Tony Galento or Jimmy Braddock when it comes to finishing an opponent (and almost everything else too for that matter)...
I wouldn't say Louis was particularly vulnerable to great punchers. He got dropped as much as he did b/c he was an offense minded fighter who would let loose combinations with both hands, and while you are in the middle of a two-fisted attack you are vulnerable to a sharp counter-punch to put you off balance. But besides the Marciano fights, when did Louis not get RIGHT back up and start kicking ass (or in the Walcott fights at least come up with his head perfectly cleared)? Even vs Schmeling after getting badly hurt in the 4th he rallied back to win a number of the middle rounds and took an incredibly large number of flush right hands before the final KO.
Tyson and Foreman themselves would be coming into the danger zone big time if they tried to trade directly with Louis. Louis had the faster hands, better timing, better punch-placement, much better counter-puncher. Joe might go down but over the long haul no way foes Foreman not get decapitated. Tyson isn't even in Louis's league to be honest.
I give Liston a fair shot b/c he wore guys down with his heavy jab before going in for the kill. But I give a prime Liston a shot vs anybody.
I think everyone underestimates or chooses to ignore how incredibly quick an powerful an defensivly sound tyson was in his younger days with kevin rooney. I think he would be up there with any one but would back ali to take him if anyone could tyson wouldve taught louis a lesson louise dropped his hands schmelling an marciano proved that mike tyson second best hevyweight ever.
Ezzard wrote:There are certain fighters who rarely get picked against in mythical match ups.
I'm interested in guys generally rated well below the greats mentioned here who you would pick to win.
Ali
Who are the potential Ken Nortons out there?
I think 2 types of fighter spring to mind: swarmers and defensive minded fighters.
The left hook seems so important in beating Ali. Considering the blue print of Frazier I'd have to go with Jack Dempsey having a great chance at beating Ali. The other fighter who reallys stands out as having the tools and style is Jersey Joe Walcott.
Louis
Louis would seem to be vulnerable to great punchers who were also great finishers and a skilled mover could also give him plenty of trouble.
Of the latter category I'd fancy Tunney as a very tricky match up for Louis. If Joe had met Ezzard Charles in his prime he'd have been the favourite but could Charles have boxed his way to a decision?
Whilst Joe got up to wreak havoc on the not so great fighters who floored him could he have done the same thing if he'd have been dropped by a Foreman or Liston? A great finisher like Dempsey might once again have a great chance of an upset here. Tyson was also a great finisher and could get the job done early if he managed to drop and shake Louis up. Demspey and Tyson are a dman sight better than Tony Galento or Jimmy Braddock when it comes to finishing an opponent (and almost everything else too for that matter)...
I wouldn't say Louis was particularly vulnerable to great punchers. He got dropped as much as he did b/c he was an offense minded fighter who would let loose combinations with both hands, and while you are in the middle of a two-fisted attack you are vulnerable to a sharp counter-punch to put you off balance. But besides the Marciano fights, when did Louis not get RIGHT back up and start kicking ass (or in the Walcott fights at least come up with his head perfectly cleared)? Even vs Schmeling after getting badly hurt in the 4th he rallied back to win a number of the middle rounds and took an incredibly large number of flush right hands before the final KO.
Tyson and Foreman themselves would be coming into the danger zone big time if they tried to trade directly with Louis. Louis had the faster hands, better timing, better punch-placement, much better counter-puncher. Joe might go down but over the long haul no way foes Foreman not get decapitated. Tyson isn't even in Louis's league to be honest.
I give Liston a fair shot b/c he wore guys down with his heavy jab before going in for the kill. But I give a prime Liston a shot vs anybody.
I think everyone underestimates or chooses to ignore how incredibly quick an powerful an defensivly sound tyson was in his younger days with kevin rooney. I think he would be up there with any one but would back ali to take him if anyone could tyson wouldve taught louis a lesson louise dropped his hands schmelling an marciano proved that mike tyson second best hevyweight ever.
Ezzard wrote:There are certain fighters who rarely get picked against in mythical match ups.
I'm interested in guys generally rated well below the greats mentioned here who you would pick to win.
Ali
Who are the potential Ken Nortons out there?
I think 2 types of fighter spring to mind: swarmers and defensive minded fighters.
The left hook seems so important in beating Ali. Considering the blue print of Frazier I'd have to go with Jack Dempsey having a great chance at beating Ali. The other fighter who reallys stands out as having the tools and style is Jersey Joe Walcott.
Louis
Louis would seem to be vulnerable to great punchers who were also great finishers and a skilled mover could also give him plenty of trouble.
Of the latter category I'd fancy Tunney as a very tricky match up for Louis. If Joe had met Ezzard Charles in his prime he'd have been the favourite but could Charles have boxed his way to a decision?
Whilst Joe got up to wreak havoc on the not so great fighters who floored him could he have done the same thing if he'd have been dropped by a Foreman or Liston? A great finisher like Dempsey might once again have a great chance of an upset here. Tyson was also a great finisher and could get the job done early if he managed to drop and shake Louis up. Demspey and Tyson are a dman sight better than Tony Galento or Jimmy Braddock when it comes to finishing an opponent (and almost everything else too for that matter)...
I wouldn't say Louis was particularly vulnerable to great punchers. He got dropped as much as he did b/c he was an offense minded fighter who would let loose combinations with both hands, and while you are in the middle of a two-fisted attack you are vulnerable to a sharp counter-punch to put you off balance. But besides the Marciano fights, when did Louis not get RIGHT back up and start kicking ass (or in the Walcott fights at least come up with his head perfectly cleared)? Even vs Schmeling after getting badly hurt in the 4th he rallied back to win a number of the middle rounds and took an incredibly large number of flush right hands before the final KO.
Tyson and Foreman themselves would be coming into the danger zone big time if they tried to trade directly with Louis. Louis had the faster hands, better timing, better punch-placement, much better counter-puncher. Joe might go down but over the long haul no way foes Foreman not get decapitated. Tyson isn't even in Louis's league to be honest.
I give Liston a fair shot b/c he wore guys down with his heavy jab before going in for the kill. But I give a prime Liston a shot vs anybody.
My thoughts were that Louis would seem to be vulnerable to punchers who were great finishers. A one shot power hitter like a Shavers would not be a danger. A man who could drop him and follow up might well be. When we're talking about big punchers who could but accurate combinations together then if Joe gets dropped, no matter how good his recuperative skills, a great finisher could inflict some real damage.
My point is that he jumped back up and kicked ass against formidable punchers but not what I'd consider especially great finishers.
I Feel Fine wrote:I don't think Ali was particularly bothered by swarmers... who didn't he fight that didn't come after him? You can point at him having trouble with Chuvalo and Frazier... whom he both beat twice... but you could also point to him beating swarmers in Liston and Foreman and Bonavena and whoever else... you could probably count in one hand the number of fighters who weren't the aggressors in an important Ali fight...
I agree that the left hook is the best punch against Ali, but Dempsey never beats Ali... Walcott would have to get Ali out of shape...
To me Lennox would probably give Ali the most problems.. though I'm not sure it would qualify as an upset if Ali lost to Lewis. I wouldn't favor Lennox in a series of fights, but in one fight Lewis could win. I think the Witherspoon who should have beaten Holmes might give Ali some trouble... could be tough...
I'm sure Liston, Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Holmes, prime Tyson, Lewis, maybe Holyfield would all have a shot at beating Louis... though, again, not sure that those qualify as upsets per se. I don't think Ezzard Charles could have beaten Louis in his prime. I don't see Tunney doing it, though it'd be a good fight. I think Louis would eat Shavers up... but I guess Shavers has a punchers chance with anybody.
I don't understand how anyone who has ever seen their fights could say Louis knocks out Ali.
I wouldn't categorise Liston and Foreman as swarmers.
Dempsey was a better fighter than Chuvalo. His left hook was one of the best ever seen in the division. If Norton can beat Ali then Dempsey can definitely win one too.
In your list of fighters who have a shot against Louis why have you written 'prime' in front of Tyson? Do the others not have to be in their prime to get a win?
Decagon wrote:Benny Briscoe arguably did beat Carlos Monzon, reportedly. Most people'd be hard-pressed to put him in their top 30 at 160 - I don't - but I wouldn't preclude him from beating Monzon.
I assume you mean their draw in 67? I have heard more than one person say Bennie was a little unlucky that night.
Bad Bennie would I am sure be somewhere in my top 30 Middleweights of all time.
I Feel Fine wrote:I don't think Ali was particularly bothered by swarmers... who didn't he fight that didn't come after him? You can point at him having trouble with Chuvalo and Frazier... whom he both beat twice... but you could also point to him beating swarmers in Liston and Foreman and Bonavena and whoever else... you could probably count in one hand the number of fighters who weren't the aggressors in an important Ali fight...
I agree that the left hook is the best punch against Ali, but Dempsey never beats Ali... Walcott would have to get Ali out of shape...
To me Lennox would probably give Ali the most problems.. though I'm not sure it would qualify as an upset if Ali lost to Lewis. I wouldn't favor Lennox in a series of fights, but in one fight Lewis could win. I think the Witherspoon who should have beaten Holmes might give Ali some trouble... could be tough...
I'm sure Liston, Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Holmes, prime Tyson, Lewis, maybe Holyfield would all have a shot at beating Louis... though, again, not sure that those qualify as upsets per se. I don't think Ezzard Charles could have beaten Louis in his prime. I don't see Tunney doing it, though it'd be a good fight. I think Louis would eat Shavers up... but I guess Shavers has a punchers chance with anybody.
I don't understand how anyone who has ever seen their fights could say Louis knocks out Ali.
I wouldn't categorise Liston and Foreman as swarmers.
Dempsey was a better fighter than Chuvalo. His left hook was one of the best ever seen in the division. If Norton can beat Ali then Dempsey can definitely win one too.
In your list of fighters who have a shot against Louis why have you written 'prime' in front of Tyson? Do the others not have to be in their prime to get a win?
Yeah, I was thinking more along the lines of "aggressors." Liston was swarming a bit though in their fight, if you want to look at it that way.
Dempsey and Norton are nothing alike. Dempsey was of course better than Chuvalo, but I think Dempsey would be out matched against Ali and a lot of future champions for that matter. None of Dempsey's opponents, even Tunney, could box like Ali...
Yeah, I think they would all have to be in their primes, except for maybe Lewis who some would say was better when he got older, and Ali himself who could have beaten Louis in his comeback. But its always good to be specific about Tyson.
