BoxRec

Liston beat stronger fighters than Marciano, and in their prime.

this post puzzles me. ur saying the fighters he beat were better than rocky marciano?

Decagon wrote:Stronger doesn't equal better.

liston was incredible. i actually think a peak liston would beat muhammad ali, but hey 98% of boxing fans would disagree with me.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:

Decagon wrote:Stronger doesn't equal better.

liston was incredible. i actually think a peak liston would beat muhammad ali, but hey 98% of boxing fans would disagree with me.

Probably even more than that. I guess if you knew the percentage of boxing fans who are legally blind, then you'd know how many would favor a prime Liston over a prime Ali.

"Peak Liston" would beat Ali? If this is against a "Peak Ali" that is beyond stupid.

It's not about size . . .Marciano would have kicked the living crap out of Jameel McCline, for example.

It's b/c his strength, knockout power in both fists, solid defensive skills, one of the best left jabs ever, a granite jaw. Liston in a head to head basis at his very best loses to very few fighters. I would only favor a prime Ali, Jack Johnson, and possibly Louis and Dempsey to beat Liston, and Louis is my favorite HW but Liston poses major problems for him from a style perspective. Would've been a fascinating fight. Louis was a big fan of Sonny.

elmersalsa wrote:Liston would have been too big for Rocky. I pick Liston by stoppage in 8 rounds. Too bad that he is remembered more of the 2 Ali fights. But from 1958 to 1962, Liston beat stronger fighters than Marciano, and in their prime.

Heavyweight ratings: I pick Marciano over Liston
pound per pound ratings: The same
Head to Head matchup: Liston...Too big.

Tell us who was "stronger than Marciano."

LOL

Decagon wrote:Liston had an 84" reach. Marciano had a 68" reach. That's the real story.

The overhand right Marciano knocked Archie Moore down with for the first knockdown in their fight traveled a good ten feet.

Moore made the mistake of stepping back to avoid a Marciano left hook where he got clobbered by a Marciano right hand as Marciano STEPPED IN behind his right hand, something he was great at.

You should learn the fundamentals of the subject, decagon.

Make that a project for yourself.

Try to find out what Stepping In is.

Then you might want to find out what infighting is---where a fighter's longer reach is actually an impediment.

But off course in stage you are at in your knowledge of the subject you think that fighters ONLY stand at long range.

Decagon wrote:Stronger doesn't equal better.

well dec marciano happened to be one of the strongest hws ever and im not talking about p4p either. i cant think of a heavweight that liston fought that was stronger than marciano with the possible exception of muhammad ali. cleveland williams? maybe but he didnt apply his strength like marciano did

Ambling Alp wrote:"Peak Liston" would beat Ali? If this is against a "Peak Ali" that is beyond stupid.

No it's not. At their peaks it would have been a 50:50 fight. Ali said that Liston was the best fighter he ever faced and reckoned that at Sonny's best only he - Ali - could have beaten him.

j

At their peaks it would have been a 50-50 fight? At their peaks Liston wouldn't have have had a chance in hell.
Furthermore, they did fight fight and Liston could make it to the 7th round. Ali beat him easily. It happened. We don't have to speculate.

Both Ali Liston fights were so odd that they give us little guidance as to "what would have happened if".

That said, I find it hard to see any heavyweight in history beat the Ali who demolished Big Cat Willams or Earnie Terrell. Neither Williams or Terrell was in the class of Liston, of course (and Williams was beyond his peak), but they were still very competent heavyweights, and Ali did not get hit once while peppering his opponents with bucketloads of blistering quick combinations.

P

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:

Decagon wrote:Stronger doesn't equal better.

liston was incredible. i actually think a peak liston would beat muhammad ali, but hey 98% of boxing fans would disagree with me.

Oh yeah Liston was so past it when he fought Ali but Walcott, Louis Charles and Moore were all in their primes when they fought the Rock right!??....
...ever thought of standup??

pundit wrote:Both Ali Liston fights were so odd that they give us little guidance as to "what would have happened if".

That said, I find it hard to see any heavyweight in history beat the Ali who demolished Big Cat Willams or Earnie Terrell. Neither Williams or Terrell was in the class of Liston, of course (and Williams was beyond his peak), but they were still very competent heavyweights, and Ali did not get hit once while peppering his opponents with bucketloads of blistering quick combinations.

P

"Williams was beyond his peak"

I love it.

Williams was MISSING ONE KIDNEY, MISSING TEN FEET OF HIS SMALL INTESTINE, and HAD A SHRIVELED LEFT LEG from nerve damage from the bullet he was shot with from a magnum gun at point blank range a year and a half before he fought Ali..

Tell us, pundit, IF

Ali showed up for a fight MISSING ONE KIDNEY, MISSING TEN FEET OF HIS SMALL INTESTINE, and HAD A SHRIVELED LEFT LEG from nerve damage from the bullet he was shot with from a magnum gun at point blank range a year and a half before--

would you say he was "beyond his peak" ?

Keep the pure crap coming.

Ambling Alp wrote:At their peaks it would have been a 50-50 fight? At their peaks Liston wouldn't have have had a chance in hell.
Furthermore, they did fight fight and Liston could make it to the 7th round. Ali beat him easily. It happened. We don't have to speculate.

Well, you're entitled to your opinion and I'm entitled to mine. But are you trying to tell me that the Liston who fought Ali was the Liston who blasted out Williams, Valdes, Folley, et al...??

J

john2345 wrote:...But are you trying to tell me that the Liston who fought Ali was the Liston who blasted out Williams, Valdes, Folley, et al...??

J

No, he wasn't, although I think the difference was probably due more to his inactivity than his age. But are you telling me that you think that Ali was at his peak when he fought Liston!??! He was all of 22 and had only 19 pro fights.

pundit wrote:Both Ali Liston fights were so odd that they give us little guidance as to "what would have happened if".

That said, I find it hard to see any heavyweight in history beat the Ali who demolished Big Cat Willams or Earnie Terrell. Neither Williams or Terrell was in the class of Liston, of course (and Williams was beyond his peak), but they were still very competent heavyweights, and Ali did not get hit once while peppering his opponents with bucketloads of blistering quick combinations.

P

You may find the first fight odd, but the first Ali-Liston fight tells us everything we need to know. Ali toyed with Liston. Liston couldn't hit him, while Ali could hit and hurt Liston. Liston shouldn't have quit so easily, but he wasn't go the distance much less win. This is as plain as day.

john2345 wrote:

Ambling Alp wrote:At their peaks it would have been a 50-50 fight? At their peaks Liston wouldn't have have had a chance in hell.
Furthermore, they did fight fight and Liston could make it to the 7th round. Ali beat him easily. It happened. We don't have to speculate.

Well, you're entitled to your opinion and I'm entitled to mine. But are you trying to tell me that the Liston who fought Ali was the Liston who blasted out Williams, Valdes, Folley, et al...??

J

Yes I am. What evidence is there that Liston was slipping? He wasn't old, and hadn't taken much punishment in previous fights. If anything, Liston actually seemed to be getting better leading up to the fight with Ali.
He had completely destroyed Patterson (who was better than Williams,Valdes,and Folley) in his fights immediately before he lost to Ali. Williams, Valdes,Folley weren't nearly as good as Ali, and were much easier to hit than Ali.

Liston had trouble with Machen who had was quick and a good defensive fighter. It's not that suprising that he would be easily defeated by Ali who was much quicker and harder to hit than Machen.

Decagon wrote:Liston had an 84" reach. Marciano had a 68" reach. That's the real story.

Are you saying that Liston's arms would be an insurmountable problem for Sonny? And once Marciano got inside Liston would have no defense? I might have to disagree with that assumption.

granberry wrote:

pundit wrote:Both Ali Liston fights were so odd that they give us little guidance as to "what would have happened if".

That said, I find it hard to see any heavyweight in history beat the Ali who demolished Big Cat Willams or Earnie Terrell. Neither Williams or Terrell was in the class of Liston, of course (and Williams was beyond his peak), but they were still very competent heavyweights, and Ali did not get hit once while peppering his opponents with bucketloads of blistering quick combinations.

P

"Williams was beyond his peak"

I love it.

Williams was MISSING ONE KIDNEY, MISSING TEN FEET OF HIS SMALL INTESTINE, and HAD A SHRIVELED LEFT LEG from nerve damage from the bullet he was shot with from a magnum gun at point blank range a year and a half before he fought Ali..

Tell us, pundit, IF

Ali showed up for a fight MISSING ONE KIDNEY, MISSING TEN FEET OF HIS SMALL INTESTINE, and HAD A SHRIVELED LEFT LEG from nerve damage from the bullet he was shot with from a magnum gun at point blank range a year and a half before--

would you say he was "beyond his peak" ?

Keep the pure crap coming.

Williams was still good enough to go 10 rounds with Chuvalo in the early 70s.... he was still a decent fighter even then!...

Marciano was made for Liston... Sonny would either blast him out early or batter him to a pulp with his jab...

Ambling Alp wrote:

pundit wrote:Both Ali Liston fights were so odd that they give us little guidance as to "what would have happened if".

That said, I find it hard to see any heavyweight in history beat the Ali who demolished Big Cat Willams or Earnie Terrell. Neither Williams or Terrell was in the class of Liston, of course (and Williams was beyond his peak), but they were still very competent heavyweights, and Ali did not get hit once while peppering his opponents with bucketloads of blistering quick combinations.

P

You may find the first fight odd, but the first Ali-Liston fight tells us everything we need to know. Ali toyed with Liston. Liston couldn't hit him, while Ali could hit and hurt Liston. Liston shouldn't have quit so easily, but he wasn't go the distance much less win. This is as plain as day.

What you describe applies at best to the sixth round. Overall the fight was dead even by the time Liston quit.

Don't forget that Liston was also favorite before the second fight. If Ali would have "toyed" with Liston the first tme around, it's hard to see how people would have come to that assessment before the rematch.

pundit wrote:What you describe applies at best to the sixth round. Overall the fight was dead even by the time Liston quit.

Yes it was even on the official’s cards, but the fight was not even.

Pundit, have you actually seen this fight?
The only round that Liston won was the 5th when Ali had trouble seeing for most of the round. During the rest of the fight Ali was in control. Liston knew he wasn't going to win and quit. What the odds were for the rematch is irrelevant.

Ambling Alp wrote:Pundit, have you actually seen this fight?

Sorry, but evaluating fighters based on boxrec stats only and without real knowledge of their fights is your specialty...

The only round that Liston won was the 5th when Ali had trouble seeing for most of the round. During the rest of the fight Ali was in control. Liston knew he wasn't going to win and quit. What the odds were for the rematch is irrelevant.

You have a way of presenting things as quasi-facts that very much reflect your own opinion rather than facts.... The only rounds Ali won clearly were the 3rd and the 6th, probably also the 4th. But Liston arguably won the first two rounds -- they were rather eventless, but Liston was the agressor.

It's true that by the sixth round Ali seemed to be in control -- but don't forget that Liston fought with an injured shoulder by then.

It is NOT irrelevant at all that Liston was the betting favorite also before the second fight. It shows the evaluation of people of the Ali's and Liston's strenghts based on tyhe first fight, and WITHOUT hindsight of the second fight and Ali's ensuing career. And based on the first fight only people still thought Sonny was the better heavyweight.

Nice. What a class act. I'm sorry that I don't have your real knowledge of fights.
I'm not presenting quasi-facts. I going by what really happened in the fight.
You seriously think the fight was even? Wow. No, Liston didn't win the first two rounds. It doesn't matter who is the aggressor, it matters who is effective.

You seriously think that Liston really had a sore shoulder? Come on. I didn't think anyone really believed that. the sore shoulder sorry was an excuse. He was getting hurt, he was getting marked up, he knew he couldn't hit Ali cleanly. He knew he wasn't going to last 9 more rounds. He quit because he knew he wasn't going to win.

So what if people still thought Liston would win the rematch? People thought he would win the first one as well. What people think is going to happen isn't important. What really happened does.