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Posted: 15 May 2007, 04:58
by Autobarn
thunderfromdownunder wrote:i would rather see taylor fight the Miranda/pavlik winner(that will be his mando, so he has to or be stripped). and joe fight mikkel.
promoters shit me to tears
absolutely. it makes so much sense to see Taylor solidify himself as champ - he's looked poor and may need a dangerous puncher to bring the best out of him. The best of middle and the best of s middle would fight in an ideal world, with the winner of each to face each other.
But that just makes too much sense.
I'd say the problem is Warren because he has a thing for Taylor, but Taylor was a millionaire before he turned pro and thus does not to conform to low rent SN opponents.
Posted: 15 May 2007, 05:08
by Sweet P
Marlin wrote:ben k wrote:Mundine said in an interview that his promoter is trying to make a deal with the Kessler camp, He also said he might have to travel for the fight as Kessler conceded home ground advantage last time.
That would be fair enough...
It will still be the same result as last time though...
I think it may be closer than last time, When Mundine actually attacked he had Kessler looking pretty bad .If he can fight with confidence like he has for his last 2-3 fights it could be very close.
Posted: 15 May 2007, 06:03
by overhand_right
Final Fight wrote:it sorts out the silly WBA title split.
Actually it doesn't. The WBA will immediately vacate the WBA title again, Kessler remain super champ and 2 undeserving fringe contenders will contest it.
Disband the WBA.
Posted: 15 May 2007, 06:23
by El Raincoat
I think Taylor is a better fight for Calzaghe he's a big name in America and brings more money. I also believe Calzaghe would look very good against Taylor and beat him.
Posted: 15 May 2007, 07:01
by Chambers2
El Raincoat wrote:I think Taylor is a better fight for Calzaghe he's a big name in America and brings more money. I also believe Calzaghe would look very good against Taylor and beat him.
Not too confident he'd beat Kessler then? Its difficult to split them IMO. JT is the easier fight, hes the naturally smaller man and I think JC wins a fairly wide UD.
To be honest as a fan I couldn't give a shiny shite how much Calzaghe earns, I just want to see him in the best clashes. The Supermiddle division has 2 fighters who are head and shoulders above the rest, they are both natural 12 stoners and are both claiming to be the best at the weight, true Champions/Warriors would put it all on the line and fight each other.
Posted: 15 May 2007, 07:07
by Autobarn
overhand_right wrote:Final Fight wrote:it sorts out the silly WBA title split.
Actually it doesn't. The WBA will immediately vacate the WBA title again, Kessler remain super champ and 2 undeserving fringe contenders will contest it.
Disband the WBA.
After Hopkins - super champ - hammered Joppy - regular champ - there was no more WBA regular nonsense.
Posted: 15 May 2007, 07:10
by Autobarn
Chambers2 wrote:El Raincoat wrote:I think Taylor is a better fight for Calzaghe he's a big name in America and brings more money. I also believe Calzaghe would look very good against Taylor and beat him.
Not too confident he'd beat Kessler then? Its difficult to split them IMO. JT is the easier fight, hes the naturally smaller man and I think JC wins a fairly wide UD.
To be honest as a fan I couldn't give a shiny shite how much Calzaghe earns, I just want to see him in the best clashes. The Supermiddle division has 2 fighters who are head and shoulders above the rest, they are both natural 12 stoners and are both claiming to be the best at the weight, true Champions/Warriors would put it all on the line and fight each other.
we certainly shouldn't care. Calzaghe's never minded what turds he tried to polish for the public, such as fights with Ashira, Manfredo, Jiminez, Sobot.
I think Joe's left it too late to get credit for what he does. Beating Lacy, who becomes nothing more than limited come forward left hooker in retrospect. Beat Taylor, who will become negative jabber who backs up way too much with poor stamina and lack of assertiveness.
Posted: 15 May 2007, 08:39
by Taki...
Coming, as it does, from a man who lives inside Kessler's protector that comment was very predictable.
Posted: 15 May 2007, 09:49
by pundit
Taki... wrote:
Coming, as it does, from a man who lives inside Kessler's protector that comment was very predictable.
Ah, these little boys who think they sound tough and grown-up when the resort to bathroom language....
Posted: 15 May 2007, 10:01
by J
yeah of course you are right pundit this is all JKC and FW ducking Palle and Kessler.
Dont be so naive, this posturing occurs for months before deals are ironed out, and both sides will be doing what they can to secure any advantage for their man.
To suggest its all one side causing all the issues is plain ridiculous and shows a lack of understanding of the way these things work.
For the record I hope Kessler fights JC and sparks him. SO i have no axe to grind here but your constant whining over this matter that has been going on and on for over a year is boring everyone to death, have a day off will you.
Posted: 15 May 2007, 10:03
by Taki...
pundit wrote:Taki... wrote:
Coming, as it does, from a man who lives inside Kessler's protector that comment was very predictable.
Ah, these little boys who think they sound tough and grown-up when the resort to bathroom language....
Are you only speaking in Hypocrisy and Irony these days?
Either way it was Palle who pulled out before he even heard what Warren had to say.You can't really sugar coat that and say it wasn't Palle's fault and just blame Warren.
Posted: 15 May 2007, 10:42
by pundit
J wrote: yeah of course you are right pundit this is all JKC and FW ducking Palle and Kessler.
Dont be so naive, this posturing occurs for months before deals are ironed out, and both sides will be doing what they can to secure any advantage for their man.
Well I hope you are right. I'm just tired of Sportsnetworks' games that during the past 10 years have regulalry resulted in the big fights NOT being made.
Posted: 15 May 2007, 10:47
by pundit
Taki... wrote:pundit wrote:Taki... wrote:
Coming, as it does, from a man who lives inside Kessler's protector that comment was very predictable.
Ah, these little boys who think they sound tough and grown-up when the resort to bathroom language....
Are you only speaking in Hypocrisy and Irony these days?
Either way it was Palle who pulled out before he even heard what Warren had to say.You can't really sugar coat that and say it wasn't Palle's fault and just blame Warren.
Was is there to "say". Warren has nothing to "say", he has to sit down and negotiate the fight. Instead he is obviously looking once agagin for different -- and easier -- opponents. Palle's reaction to this farce seems perfectly appropriate to me.
Btw, Kessler vs. Mundine is the second or third best fight that can be made at 168. Which distinguishes it rather drastically from, say, Calzaghe vs. Manfredo.
Posted: 15 May 2007, 19:24
by lvlarc
Taki... wrote:Well, if true, that proves once and for all that Warren and Palle are as bad as each other. I think fingers need to be pointed in both directions if Calzaghe/Kessler never happens.
Exactly. This news is a big letdown, Taylor is still a great fight to make but Calzaghe-Kessler needs to happen. Can you imagine the response had it been Warren that pulled out of the meeting? Double standards on here make me laugh.
Posted: 15 May 2007, 20:31
by pundit
lvlarc wrote:Taki... wrote:Well, if true, that proves once and for all that Warren and Palle are as bad as each other. I think fingers need to be pointed in both directions if Calzaghe/Kessler never happens.
Exactly. This news is a big letdown, Taylor is still a great fight to make but Calzaghe-Kessler needs to happen. Can you imagine the response had it been Warren that pulled out of the meeting? Double standards on here make me laugh.
Of course people react with more scepticism to Warren's moves than to those of well-reputated promoters like Pallen. After the experiences of the past 10 years, one would have to be a moron not to do so.
Posted: 15 May 2007, 20:48
by Max Molyneux
Don't make me educate you Mr Pundit.
The god of the moon can educate you very easily.
Posted: 15 May 2007, 20:58
by pundit
Tsukiyomi wrote:Don't make me educate you Mr Pundit.
Go ahead my old buddy!
Don't forget the spellcheck.
Posted: 16 May 2007, 07:47
by Autobarn
God, Calzaghe is such a bore. Why should we care about his quest to find a defining fight? Until he gets one, that's it, I just have no interest in the matter.
Posted: 16 May 2007, 12:11
by J
GREAT POST TERENCE.
Posted: 16 May 2007, 12:19
by jamesmcdonnell
Terry D wrote:Ten years of Calzaghe's reign and still no SM Champion worth the name, unless it is Kessler, possibly.
All the people who have passed through or passed over the division and Team Joe get a single defining fight with a guy who hurtled towards it with no thought or subtly save (funny as that is how Lacy fights) the, noble, one of wanting to fight the best ASAP.
All these possible fights to name a few, starting with ones that could be made at LH (where Joe has been moving for the past three years or so):
Calzaghe - Jones
Calzaghe - Johnson
Calzaghe - Tarver
Calzaghe - Dawson
Calzaghe - Hopkins
Calzaghe - Ottke
Calzaghe - Beyer
Calzaghe - Mundine
Calzaghe - Kessler (may as well add this one eh?)
Calzaghe - Froch
Calzaghe - D-Man
Calzaghe - Wright
Calzaghe - Taylor (so far)
Calzaghe - Green
Calzaghe - Lucas
What is the common denominator in not making these fights? (Nope, not that there are a lot of guys out there sh*t scared of Joe, is he scarier than Tito or Adamek were?) Give up? No not allegedly allegedly. As much as it pains the guys who run the sport boxers are not chattel, be it allegedly sent by recorded delivery or pony express you can refuse to sign that contract.
So what is the common factor in none of these fights getting made? Joe Calzaghe.
Max can bleat things like "Oh Hopkins was scared and negotiated himself out of the contract, Kessler refused to be ready by June/July (where is this Summer superfight Max?) etc" but that does not wash.
A ten-year reign should sort out something, instead we have a division that is still basically fragmented, Kessler is at least bringing some cohesion, Joe has nothing to show from the Lacy fight anymore, the good will towards him as gone and so has the title he picked up.
All we are left with is fights not made and excuses, sorry but we had all that for ten years. For one Lacy fight read how many Starie nights?
Joe as one of the greatest British fighters of all time? On what evidence?
Quite correct Terrence, as I've been saying for a long time now, Warren gets all the flak for the careers of his fighters, but nobody is forcing them to resign those contracts are they, and at the end of the day, he got Tszyu over for Hatton, and paid him bloody well for the priviledge. Now Hatton must have taken a massive pay cut to make that fight happen, and apparently Calzaghe did for the Lacy bout, but christ, a ten year reign.
Calzaghe doesn't feel any need to prove he is the best, because in his own mind, it is beyond doubt. Sadly for the punters, that's not really the makings of an exciting career, and in truth, the Lacy peformance aside, Calzaghe has been a big dissapointment ever since beating Byron Mitchell, which was the fight which should have been his springboard to megafights in the US. How long ago was that now, 4-5 years? I've lost count.
Calzaghe's career has been a sorely wasted opportunity. I say that because I think Joe has all the talent in the world, but lacks the desire to really establish a legacy. He's had a good career has Joe, but he could have had a great career and that's the crying shame of it all.
Of course I'm sure Warren is happy with the status quo, but why wouldn't he be, a promoter is there to enrich his fighter and himself, the burden is not on Warren to carve out a fantastic career for Joe, that's down to the fighter.
Well done with that list, puts it all into perspective. All of those were respectable opponents who would have enhanced his reputation, and the fact that none of them happened, says it all.
Posted: 16 May 2007, 12:30
by jamesmcdonnell
Yep, all true.
I forget which fight it was now, but they put a camera in Joe's dressing room before the fight, showing him warming up, and it's one of the most mawkish things I've ever seen, it was as bad as watching Blind Date.
Joe was there with a big cheesy grin on his face trying to give it the big one, and I swear he was blushing, it just looked so forced and trite.
Joe is a very talented fighter, in terms of talent one of our very best I think, but as you say, he lacks the charisma or the intent to make the most of that.
Several years ago now, Calzaghe was at least bowling them over, now they are turning into either whitewashes against hugely inferior opposition, or distance fights where Calzaghe wins hands down without exciting.
The Lacy fight shows just how good Calzaghe is, but that and the Eubank fight are really the two only really impressive performances against top notch opposition in his career. The mitchell win was good also.
Posted: 16 May 2007, 12:49
by jamesmcdonnell
Terry D wrote:I think it was the Ashira fight, a KO was promised.
Joe and his dad seem alright sorts. Unfortunately very few decent fights over a big career does not get you the respect and perks Joe wants. He wants the big-time fighter build without building a big-time fighter career.
Joe is acting a bit like a jazz trumpeter who wants to go off on big, showy solos without a decent bassline and drum beat underpinning him (not sure if that analogy works but fook it, I want to keep it for future use).
Taylor gets a bit of stick but in three fights he bested Joe's career (Hopkins I and II and Wright) in terms of quality. Sure Jermain is fighting a couple of blown-up LH's yet they are LH's who won titles, Joe fought Ashira who did nothing nowhere. Taylor fights quality when he takes on smaller guys, Joe does not.
Joe needs Taylor. Who could blame Jermain if he said 'sod it' and decided to spare himself the torture of 'negotiating' (if you can call slinging press statements about negotiation) with SN and opted to take on Pavlik instead?
Nice analogy, but I'd say Joe's more like a trumpet player in a brass band, who wants Dizzy Gallespie to his local church hall so they can play together.
In every single megafight that's been mooted, Joe has always come over as being the Mountain to every potential Mohammad, and if concessions couldn't be made, then it was 'aaaaa fucck'em then like, I'd beat'em anyway.'
I'm not saying it's Joe's fault as such, I know a lot of these fights are hard to make, but the willingness to make concessions and go that extra mile to make the fights happen, which could have made the difference, simply wasn't there.
Imagine for instance if Joe had taken a pay cut, gone over to germany, and beaten Ottke, which I think Joe would have done though maybe a bit harder than some thing. He would have been a much bigger name and would have been able to call the shots and earn some massive paydays, rather than waiting until right near the end of his career, beating Lacy and then cashing in against Manfredo after a couple of meaningless fillers.
Posted: 16 May 2007, 13:47
by steve689
Plenty of good points being banded about here. Joe at his prime had the beating of Beyer and probably Ottke (who was slippy in his prime and would have been more difficult than people think). Why didn't he cash in and go and massacre Beyer to unify many moons ago?
After all he went to Germany to beat Mario Veit in one of the most pointless rematches of all time so the tiresome old chestnut "i'll get robbed on the cards" didn't wash. The payday would have been huge and a neutral set of officials and a big TV audience would have given Calzaghe a safety net against being shafted IMO
Posted: 17 May 2007, 05:17
by Max Molyneux
pundit wrote:Tsukiyomi wrote:Don't make me educate you Mr Pundit.
Go ahead my old buddy!
Don't forget the spellcheck.
Spelling Is Irrelevant Mr Pundint.
Proper debate Is what matters.
You may be tired of Sports Networks business but why not be tired with Palle's antics too?
He doesn't have to defend against Mundine for 18 months under WBA super champ rules.
Posted: 17 May 2007, 05:23
by Max Molyneux
Terry D wrote:Ten years of Calzaghe's reign and still no SM Champion worth the name, unless it is Kessler, possibly.
All the people who have passed through or passed over the division and Team Joe get a single defining fight with a guy who hurtled towards it with no thought or subtly save (funny as that is how Lacy fights) the, noble, one of wanting to fight the best ASAP.
All these possible fights to name a few, starting with ones that could be made at LH (where Joe has been moving for the past three years or so):
Calzaghe - Jones
Calzaghe - Johnson
Calzaghe - Tarver
Calzaghe - Dawson
Calzaghe - Hopkins
Calzaghe - Ottke
Calzaghe - Beyer
Calzaghe - Mundine
Calzaghe - Kessler (may as well add this one eh?)
Calzaghe - Froch
Calzaghe - D-Man
Calzaghe - Wright
Calzaghe - Taylor (so far)
Calzaghe - Green
Calzaghe - Lucas
What is the common denominator in not making these fights? (Nope, not that there are a lot of guys out there sh*t scared of Joe, is he scarier than Tito or Adamek were?) Give up? No not allegedly allegedly. As much as it pains the guys who run the sport boxers are not chattel, be it allegedly sent by recorded delivery or pony express you can refuse to sign that contract.
So what is the common factor in none of these fights getting made? Joe Calzaghe.
Max can bleat things like "Oh Hopkins was scared and negotiated himself out of the contract, Kessler refused to be ready by June/July (where is this Summer superfight Max?) etc" but that does not wash.
A ten-year reign should sort out something, instead we have a division that is still basically fragmented, Kessler is at least bringing some cohesion, Joe has nothing to show from the Lacy fight anymore, the good will towards him as gone and so has the title he picked up.
All we are left with is fights not made and excuses, sorry but we had all that for ten years. For one Lacy fight read how many Starie nights?
Joe as one of the greatest British fighters of all time? On what evidence?
The only fighter I'd leave out of that possible list Is Froch due to him only being a prospect still and having done nothing beyond European.
Maybe Winky too due to the size factor as Joe would be accused of beating on a light middle If he wins.
People always find excuse once Joe beats them.
How does Hopkins pricing himself out exactly not wash? Kessler could of been well ready for July but he made the Summer Holiday excuse but lucky for him Joe's china hands went. Kessler's excuse didn't wash either.
On pure talent and the fact no Brit fighter has shown to be that good or dominant I'd put him down as one of the best British fighters of all time.