BoxRec

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Announcers are wrong all of the time. Williams doesn't seem to have longer arms to me. I would go by a tape measure over a scale any day.

Foreman had much better skill than some people think. He had an odd style that people sometimes thjat wasn't textbook but worked for him.

As mentioned before, the stamina issue is way opver blown. Do you seriousy think Bowe would have survived against the Foreman that lost to Ali?

Do you seriously think that Bowe could throw bombs against Ali in extreme heat and last much longer than Foreman?

I love the Peralta example that people use. Foreman knocks almost everyone out easy and people say he doesn't have stamina. When he goes the distance against Peralta people critice him for not knocking him out. He wasn't ineffective in the Peralta fights. This is more proof that he had stamina.

Lyle had a good chin. He survived Earnie Shavers bombs and knocked him out.

Ali never stopped another fighter except for "title fight filler" after he stopped Lyle? Ali did stop a guy named Joe Frazier after he stopped Lyle. Frazier wasn't exactly a "title fight filler".

You can't count the loss to Lynn Ball against him as evidence that Lyle didn't have a good chin. Lyle was 38 years old by then.

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Bowe couldn't pick Holyfield apart, outside of the hepatitis fight, but he's going to knock Ali out now...?

Honestly, even if I wasn't an Ali fan I would be stunned by some of these anti-Ali comments.

Yeah, why do people automatically assume Ali would be rope-a-doping... Holyfield and Golota used lateral movement to beat Bowe, but Ali wouldn't..?

I know we're comparing Bowe to Foreman, but still... and its not as if Ali didn't use any movement against Foreman, either...

I agree.

When some says this silly comments like DaveV17 did, it's always a question of weather it's worth responding. I guess I will. Decagon and I Feel fine already mentioned the rope a dope question.

Foreman didn't fight a mindless fight against Ali. He threw bombs that would have knocked just about anyone one else out. He certainly would have knocked Bowe out with those punches.

Foreman was "ready to go toward the end" of the Peralta fight? What in the world are you talking about?

I know this is a little off the foreman-Bowe topic, but Frazier wasn't a great fighter when he fought Ali in the 2nd and 3rd fights? That's pretty convenient since Ali won these fights. He was younger than Ali and only had 34 fights when they fought the 3rd time. He was coming off of wins over Quarry and Ellis. He fought one of the best fights of his career.

The bottom line with Bowe-Foreman is that Bowe would get nailed. Unlike Holyfield or Golota, he wouldn't get off the hook. Once Foreman hurts him, its over.

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The only reason I brought up Bowe getting tired like Foreman eventually did if he fought that way against was in response to an earlier comment that you made that Foreman had stamina problems.

I completely disagree with everything you said. I think we are done here.

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The thing is too, its easy to point at Foreman and say he fought a stupid fight, but he was only following his gameplan. His plan was to cut off the ring, as decagon alluded to, and get Ali on the ropes. Ali obliged him, so Foreman went to work. His gameplan simply didn't work, but it wasn't mindless, there was a strategy behind it.

DaveV17 wrote:Alp wrote: "When some says this silly comments like DaveV17 did, it's always a question of weather it's worth responding. I guess I will. Decagon and I Feel fine already mentioned the rope a dope question."

No Alp, you are the one who wrote the silly question, you asked if Bowe could throw the shots at Ali that Foreman did? I just pointed out that Bowe would not do that because he was to well schooled as a fighter. I explained to you how Bowe would have fought Ali if Ali used the ropes. I did not say that is how Ali would have fought Bowe.

Foreman was falling around the ring in the last round of the Peralta fitght and was ready to go. Just watch the fight.

Frazier was around 10 pounds over his best fighting weight after the first Ali fight. It was not good weight, it was all around his belly. He never looked particulary good again after the first Ali fight. Frazier was small and needed to be in great shape to be at his best. After the first Ali fight he didn't get into that shape again.

I an not in awe of the 70s heavyweights like some of you. Holyfield, Bowe, Lewis and even the diminished Tyson (definitely peaked in the 80s) of the 90s were the best group of heavyweights I have seen in one era. They were bigger (even Holyfield would have been huge in the 70s), stronger, and all of them were well schooled.

That's why two 1970s guys, overweight and in their 40s. were able to come back in the 90s and not only be perennial top 10 contenders, but one become HW champion of the world!!

dempseyfire wrote:

DaveV17 wrote:Alp wrote: "When some says this silly comments like DaveV17 did, it's always a question of weather it's worth responding. I guess I will. Decagon and I Feel fine already mentioned the rope a dope question."

No Alp, you are the one who wrote the silly question, you asked if Bowe could throw the shots at Ali that Foreman did? I just pointed out that Bowe would not do that because he was to well schooled as a fighter. I explained to you how Bowe would have fought Ali if Ali used the ropes. I did not say that is how Ali would have fought Bowe.

Foreman was falling around the ring in the last round of the Peralta fitght and was ready to go. Just watch the fight.

Frazier was around 10 pounds over his best fighting weight after the first Ali fight. It was not good weight, it was all around his belly. He never looked particulary good again after the first Ali fight. Frazier was small and needed to be in great shape to be at his best. After the first Ali fight he didn't get into that shape again.

I an not in awe of the 70s heavyweights like some of you. Holyfield, Bowe, Lewis and even the diminished Tyson (definitely peaked in the 80s) of the 90s were the best group of heavyweights I have seen in one era. They were bigger (even Holyfield would have been huge in the 70s), stronger, and all of them were well schooled.

That's why two 1970s guys, overweight and in their 40s. were able to come back in the 90s and not only be perennial top 10 contenders, but one become HW champion of the world!!

I didn't even notice that part of his post, but good point, my sentiments exactly. Foreman in his prime would have mauled Holyfield, at least going by their tough fight in the 90's. Holmes seemed capable of giving Holyfield a rough time, and Holmes wasn't half of what he had been. Imagine what they would do to him in his prime, or what Ali and Frazier would do. And don't get me started on what they would do to Tyson...

Lewis I think would have the best chance against 70's Heavyweights, but I would not favor him over Ali and Holmes.

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DaveV17 wrote:And Foreman's big punches should have still been there when he was older. In fact since he was bigger, he probably hit harder than he did when he was younger.

This is one of the more interesting and well thought out posts in a long time. I guess using Dave's logic the current 400+ lb Butterbean must be just about the hardest puncher of all time.

I'll leave the rest of his comments to stand on their own merit.

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DaveV17 wrote:No, John, most boxing people say that a fighter's punch is the last thing to go. Foreman was bigger and stronger than he was in his first career. Hence, his punch was probably harder. There is no way to prove it was or it wasn't, just an observation.
But it is different hitting a bigger, stronger man than it is hitting people much smaller than yourself. In Foreman's second career, he was hitting guys who weighed 225 and up and in some cases were very physically strong. They did not fold as easily as some in his first career did.
Since Foreman was never quick, being bigger and stronger just made him better. I believe Foreman has said that he was better in his second career than in his first.

As I said before, I'll leave your comments to stand on their own merit.

Dave, once again, what in the world are you talking about? Foreman was much, much better in his first career.
His power was was much greater in his first career. Putting on weight doesn't mean that you punch harder, in fact often it's the reverse.
The extra weight that Foreman put on was fat. He was a much stronger man in the 1970's. It made him slower. He didn't have the timing that he did when he was younger.

The 1970's Foreman was probably the hardest hitting heavyweight champion who ever lived.
He was much slower in his 2nd career. There were openings that he couldn't take advantage of because he simply couldn't pull the trigger. He also couldn't throw punches in bunches like he could in his earlier career. There were times in his 2nd career, when he would stun a guy, and wouldn't be able to follow up.
Foreman simply couldn't overwhelm his opponents when he was older like when he was younger, he simply didn't have the energy. He had to fight a much slower pace.

You seem to think that bigger fighters automatically can take a punch better. That is often not the case. Watch 190 pound Dempsey destroy the 245 pound Willard or the 195 pound Louis destroy the 260 Carnera.
Joe Frazier certainly had a much better chin than Wladimir Klitschko.

You also seem to have no concept of what age does to a fighter. When you get older, you lose speed, reflexes,and yes eventually your power.

Watch Holyfield, or Bowe or Tyson's at the end of their career's. They weren't remotely as good as they once were.

When Foreman fought a prime Holyfield, he was 42 years old. No the fight wasn't that close, but for Foreman to do as well as he did was eye opening. He was able to hurt Holyfield. If you get hurt by a prime Foreman, you are done.

Call it a lucky punch against Moorer, but the bottom line is that a far past his prime 46 year old Foreman won the heavyweight championship.

Btw, Tua knocked out Moorer 8 years after Foreman did. Moorer was way past it when he fought Tua. Watch the clip from youtube. Moorer didn't get hit hard at all by Tua.

A far past his best Larry Holmes gave a prime Holyfield a lot of trouble, and beat Mercer.

These is more indications that the heavyweights of the 1970's were better than the heavyweights of the 1990's.
It's not like there were middle aged heavyweights who were in their prime in the 1950's competing with and sometimes beating the top 1970's heavyweights.

The 1990's were a pretty good decade for heavyweights, (would have been a little better if the top guys would have fought each other more often) but it wasn't as good as the 1970's.

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Interesting that you ignored most of my points but anyway:

Yes, it seems that most people see a different fighter than the one that you see. We see probably the hardest hitting heavyweight champion ever. We see a guy who destroyed a great champion in Joe Frazier (how often to you see a guy fly up in the air after being punched?) as well as Ken Norton. He also hurt stopped Chuvalo who had a great chin.
The fight against Lyle was a great win, not something to criticize him for. First of all, Foreman was coming off a 15 month layoff. This was a extremely rare fight with two hard hitting heavyweights throwing bombs. Foreman showed a lot of heart and ability getting off the floor when it looked hopeless, and coming back to knockout Lyle.

The loss to Ali was nothing to be embarrassed about. He would have beaten almost anyone else that night.

Foreman certainly wasn't perfect. However, he had some tremendous strength that you seem to be disregarding.

Foreman did look bad against Young, but that was mainly because the prime Young was a great boxer who made Foreman look bad. Young was quick, great defensively, and was good at hitting his opponent and getting out. Very few guys could do that.
There are only a few heavyweights in history of boxing who were in the prime Young's league as far being a pure boxer.
Riddick Bowe isn't one of them. Bowe wouldn't be difficult at all for Foreman to hit. When he did nail, him it would be over.

Interesting that you pick Foreman's worst fight (against an opponent that is nothing like Bowe). How about Bowe's fights against Golota? Should that define Bowe's career?

The older Foreman didn't have a better chin. Where is the evidence that the older Foreman could take a better punch? I hope you don't think that Holyfield and Moorer could punch harder than Ron Lyle and Joe Frazier (but somehow you probably do). Your chin isn't going to be better in your 40's than it was in your 20's. Your recuperative powers would certainly be worse.
Holyfield, who didn't hit remotely as hard as the young Foreman, shook up the older Foreman.
The old Foreman against the young Foreman would be a massacre. Thje cross arm defense isn't going to help much. A good fighter could hit the older Foreman at will. The younger Foreman destroyed Norton who had the cross arm defense. The older Foreman wouldn't make it past the 2nd round. this would be brutal.

I realize that you have to say that the older Foreman was better than the younger Foreman. Otherwise it really looks bad for the 1990's heavyweights since the much older, and diminished Foreman was able to win the heavyweights championship and do as well as he did in other fights against fighters who were 20 years younger than him.
However, it's just ludicrious. Foreman was a much, much, better fighter in the the 1970's than he was in the 1990's.

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DaveV17 wrote:Alp, again you missed the point. You said that if Foreman hurt a fighter, he finished him. Well he hurt Young bad, but Young recovered and beat Foreman easily.

I believe that Foreman himself said that he was better when he was older. He was certainly a limited fighter when he was young. I would pick Bowe to beat him easily. Norton did not do well against any fighter who made him back up and Frazier was a fat over confident fighter when he met Foreman the first time, the second time he was even fatter and more shot. Chuvalo had been stopped by the young Frazier years before Foreman stopped him. Bowe has absolutely nothing in common with Frazier, Norton, or Chuvalo. Bowe was a bigger, more skilled man with all of the physical tools and boxing technique to make Foreman look like a novice.

Age is not the limiter that you believe it to be. Foreman lived clean, he lifted weights, pushed cars, made himself stronger. He knew that strength was his game and that the stronger he was the better he was. That is why he didn't lose weight. Take away Foreman's strength advantage in either career and if he just relies on his skills, he is a club fighter. Foreman was bigger and stronger in his second career. That is obvious to anyone.

Dave, ask any scientist if you can be better physically at 42 than 25 (and considering you'd be a professional athlete it both time periods) . . .there is no fountain of youth, it is literally impossible.

WHy he didn't lose weight? B/c the guy had balooned up to over 300 friggin' lbs, and in his 40s after a decade of preaching and eating KFC it would have been dangerous for him to crash back down to the 220s. He tried at 235 vs Cooper (or Qawi, I can't remember) and he looked awful, completely drained.

And regarding the 7th round vs Young, I think at least 8 out of 10 refs today don't even let that fight continue after the first 20 seconds and Foreman gets a TKO. And credit to Young, the guy had GREAT survival skills and a top notch chin. VERY hard to knock out at his best . . look at who he went the distance with for crying out loud.

Dempseyfire, I don't think he gets it. He doesn't understand age at all. He also doesn't seem to understand that weight isn't always an advantage and can i fact be a disadvantage. A 25 year old muscular 225 pound man isn't going to be stronger when he is a fat 260 pound man in his forties.
Foreman lived clean in his 40's? Maybe he didn't smoke or drink but he certainly didn't train hard, Foreman certainly didn't train harder in his 40's than he did when he was in his 20's.

How many fighters in history have been in their best in their 40's?
Going through record books or the boxrec database. After you go through several different fighters, you will see a pattern. Fighters get worse when they hit their mid 30's, sometimes earlier. Most are smart enough to retire. The few that don't seldom are near as good as they used to be.
As I have said before, is Bowe was remotely close to the level of his 20's when he was in late 30's?
How about Tyson?
Do you seriously think Holyfield is anywhere near the fighter now that he once was?
So what if Foreman said he was better in his 40's. Do you believe everything George says? Have you ever listened to his commentary. He is a great guy who loves to BS. Hardly anyone really believes this.

My point about Foreman stopping Chuvalo, Frazier,Norton, and Lyle was that he stopped guys that were very hard to stop.
Chuvalo was stopped one other time in a 93 fight career.
Frazier was tough as nails. Except for the thrilla in Manila he was never stopped by anyone else.
Norton didn't do well against any fighter who made him back up? Like who? He was only stopped by one other guy until he got old, and that was early in his career. In 3 fights with Ali, against a prime Larry Holmes, against Quarry, he was never even knocked down.
Lyle had a great chin as well.
He would be able to stop Riddick Bowe.

Both Lyle and Norton had some things in common with Bowe, certainly were more similar to Bowe than Jimmy Young.

If Foreman didn't have strength he would have been just a club fighter? By strength that includes punching power. Well, he have these strength and punching power which he wisely used. He certainly wasn't a novice. A novice doesn't win an Olympic Gold Medal.

These comments are becoming more and more absurd.

No matter what spin is put on it, Foreman of the 70's was a superior fighter than the 90's. He was fresher, faster, stronger and a better finisher. He had better stamina, but old George simply paced himself better. You cannot beat the clock and to say that George at 41-45 was better is simply wrong. I bet the 70's Foreman KO's the 90's version very early. Anf the 70's version beats Holy, Bowe, Tyson, Lewis and all of them. He was simply too powerful and this whole stamina issue is deceiving. He went 8 rds of power punching V Ali in extreme heat. Against Lewis and Bowe and Holy in his prime he is simply too strong and has enough stamina to hurt these guys bad and take them out.

Bowe still poses the toughest fight IMO, becaues he had the speed and chin. Holy had the speed and chin, but was a little too small and didn't hit hard enough to beat a peak Foreman. He wasn't strong enough either. Lewis has no chin, so he has to be an underdog as he was also very hittable

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