BoxRec

Decagon wrote: didn't know the difference between a "win" and a "newspaper win."

I know exactly what a "newspaper decision" is, I'm just using your own logic that claims "most people thought Greb was robbed", when most media in attendance gave 2 bouts to Tunney. Exposed.

..for the record...charles beat maxim five times.

re: charles/moore...damn...i get so sick out of reading that maybe moore should have gotten the decision in fight #2. they were close to even at the end of six. charles knocked moore down in round seven and moore went into his shell and just stopped fighting. re; the kayo in fight three. yes, archie did have ezzard in trouble right before the kayo by charles, but as archie himself said in a book and to a magazine.....(paraphrased)...."ezz set a trap for me after i had him hurt and i fell for it...and he knocked me out...with a terrific punch" ezz was in trouble, but he was not necessarily on the way out.....he was clear headed enough to "trap" archie,as the old mongoose admitted...some years later.

are there films of these fights. yes and no. no official ones, but bootlegs of the first two....i'm not sure about three.

yeah...lesnevich defended twice againt the phoney billy fox. then he went to london to defend against mills, who decisioned him. it was the day after this fight that the charles camp said ezzard would go after the heavyweight title, knowing there was no way he'd get a shot at mills. lesnevich went all the way to england to avoid a charles match. he probably would have defended against charles had he won against mills......finally accepting the rising fortune (for the time) his camp kept turning down against him. gus was thinking retirement at this time. after mills, he fought maxim for the "American Light heavy " title in cincinnati against maxim and maxim totally outclassed him. but....lesnevich got a gauranteed purse of $50,000 for this one....and the total gate was....just under $50,000 so the promoter one of the becker brothers, lost a ton. this was a major story at the time.

i don't know where i'd rate maxim in terms of a specific number...i'll just say ...sigh...as i've said before....he fought in one of the best light heavy eras ever and fought heavies as well.....and i'd rate him in the second group, under charles, moore, bivins, etc.

Jaclem wrote: i don't know where i'd rate maxim in terms of a specific number...i'll just say ...sigh...as i've said before....he fought in one of the best light heavy eras ever and fought heavies as well.....and i'd rate him in the second group, under charles, moore, bivins, etc.

Try telling that to the Maxim haters and Sam Langford nuthuggers.

Jaclem wrote:..are there films of these fights. yes and no. no official ones, but bootlegs of the first two....i'm not sure about three.

Wow, interesting. I'd love to see those.

the lightheavyweight division is different than most of the other divisions. It's more wide open as to who should be #1. I think there are 6 different guys that you could make a strong case for:
Spinks
Charles
Tunney
Moore
Langford
Foster

Because we don't know what Langford actually weighed in most of his fights, it's understandable that people don't think of him as a lightheavyweight. However, it's likely that he wasn't over 175 for most of his career.

After that there is another tier. Once again there are several guys that are pretty close:
Harold Johnson
Jones
Fitzsimmons
Qawi
Eddie Mustapha Muhammad
Saad Muhammad
Loughran
Conn
Rosenbloom
Lewis
Greb
Burns
O'Brien
Gibbons
Bivins

You could arrange these guys in almost any order. I myself have Johnson as the best of this group.

Some times it seems that people just aren't familar with all the great lightheavyweight fights of the late 1970's and early 1980's. The division was never stronger, yet you hardly ever hear people talk about these guys.

I'd have Gene Tunney as my number 1, with Tommy Gibbons definitely in the top 10.

..alp..i think tiers make much more sense than trying to rate fighters in numerical order. without going into the ones you've chosen, i'd put maxim in the second tier. highy skilled....great chin....stronger than might be obvious, and an excellent record against tough opposition. very honest guy and knew his own abilities. when a writer asked if if he ever had trouble with bad hands....as so many fighters do, he said, "no....i didn't punch that hard."

top 10 Light Heavyweights? That's a tough one to call.

Certainly a few boxers are up there: (It's criminal if they not mentioned)

Not in any order:

Archie Moore.
Ezzard Charles.
Billy Conn.
Gene Tunney.
Michael Spinks.
Harry Greb:

What about the likes of;
Joey Maxim?
Jimmy Bivins?
Evander Holyfield?

Crease wrote:top 10 Light Heavyweights? That's a tough one to call.

Certainly a few boxers are up there: (It's criminal if they not mentioned)

Not in any order:

Archie Moore.
Ezzard Charles.
Billy Conn.
Gene Tunney.
Michael Spinks.
Harry Greb:

What about the likes of;
Joey Maxim?
Jimmy Bivins?
Evander Holyfield?

As far as maxim goes see most of this thread, Holy never fought at light heavy

Decagon wrote:

Ambling Alp wrote:Some times it seems that people just aren't familar with all the great lightheavyweight fights of the late 1970's and early 1980's. The division was never stronger, yet you hardly ever hear people talk about these guys.

Yes and no. I'll go through periods where I'll have the Muhammads and Qawi in my top 20 or 25, and I keep unfortunately knocking them down because their flaws were all right there for everyone to see.

They had flaws but so does everyone.
It should be a nobrainer that Mustapha Muhammad and Qawi would be in the top 25. They should be borderline Top 10.
Saad Muhammad is seen as a "flawed fighter" (he was defensively challenged) by some, but he had some great assets that helped make him a great fighter. He has to be Top 25.
Galindez and Marvin Johnson are arguably Top 25 as well.

My top ten light heavies:

1. Archie Moore
2. Bob Foster
3. Tommy Loughran
4. John Henry Lewis
5. Michael Spinks
6. Billy Conn
7. Tommy Burns
8. Jack Delaney
9. Joe Choynski
10. Dwight Braxton

Cap

Cap's Journal

J-C wrote: Holy never fought at light heavy

Holyfields first few fights were billed as Light-Heavyweight fights although he usually weighed a few pounds over the division limit.

Cap wrote:My top ten light heavies:

1. Archie Moore
2. Bob Foster
3. Tommy Loughran
4. John Henry Lewis
5. Michael Spinks
6. Billy Conn
7. Tommy Burns
8. Jack Delaney
9. Joe Choynski
10. Dwight Braxton

Cap

Cap's Journal

Wow, no Charles at all?

...i'm assuming that cap is considering ezzard as a heavyweight and not counting his light heavy career. if i'm wrong then i'm assuming this is omission caused by his typing error.

Ambling Alp wrote: They had flaws but so does everyone.
It should be a nobrainer that Mustapha Muhammad and Qawi would be in the top 25. They should be borderline Top 10.
Saad Muhammad is seen as a "flawed fighter" (he was defensively challenged) by some, but he had some great assets that helped make him a great fighter. He has to be Top 25.
Galindez and Marvin Johnson are arguably Top 25 as well.

I definitely think Muhammad and Qawi are top 20. Muhammad is near my top 10 to be honest.

Jaclem wrote:...i'm assuming that cap is considering ezzard as a heavyweight and not counting his light heavy career. if i'm wrong then i'm assuming this is omission caused by his typing error.

Check my cruiserweight list in another thread.

Cap

1. Michael Spinks
2. Ezzard Charles
3. Archie Moore
4. Gene Tunney
5. Harold Johnson
6. Bob Foster
7. Billy Conn
8. Tommy Loughran
9. Dwight Muhammad Qawi
10. Roy Jones Jr

#1- Ezzard Charles

#2- Gene Tunney

#3- Archie Moore

#4- Billy Conn

#5- Michael Spinks

#6- Bob Foster

#7- Tommy Loughran

#8- Joe Choynski

#9- Philadelphia Jack O'Brien

#10- Bob Fitzsimmons