BoxRec

Legacy wise, at present Hatton is slightly ahead (IMO). Although if they were to meet I'd fancy Calzaghe to beat Ricky, I just think his style is all wrong for Rick.

Wales wrote:Although if they were to meet I'd fancy Calzaghe to beat Ricky, I just think his style is all wrong for Rick.

yeah that would be a styles nightmare for ricky.

be a great battle though.

We're talking best p4p out of the two, and that's Ricky....

No question.

Calzaghe is a better boxer, but it's on achievement that you get to the top of the p4p list, and by beating other pound for pounders, Tszyu and Castillo for example.

Lacy was never in the p4p top 10, neither was Eubank, Reid, and no chance for Ashira!!

Terry D wrote:I think 'facile' can be used also. Although points within a debate are usually fielded as facile.

Futile could imply that the debate serves no purpose. Facile could mean that it is a simplistic debate where your answer is easily obtained by your prejudice for one or the other and there is no really clear answer.

Loynesy could have a point.

Both fighters have careers stacked with stats and names but both only have two names worth considering. Tszyu and Castillo versus Lacy and Eubank. Which double would you rather serve as a boxer.

Speaking personally I would give my left nut to beat a guy like Kostya.

I meant facile, as Terry correctly analysed. I do know the difference James

interesting fact (doa searxch and check it out), most of the people who post and back up that Zoo was shot, prior to the match up were the same folk who predicted Zoo winning by early KO.

make of that what you will other than its pretty inconsistent at best.

jamesmcdonnell wrote:
With you entirely there AB.

Longevity is one of my major criteria for judging a fighter. Unless someone faces utter palookas, it is very hard to stay on top for as long as Calzaghe has, and although some of his opponents were piss poor, enough of them were decent enough to suggest Calzaghe is a special fighter.

Hatton, with a lesser body of work, but some more impressive signature wins against very well regarded opponents, is on a very even footing.

The ring magazine have Hatton and Calzaghe both in the top 10, one at 9 and one at 8, there's not a lot in it.

Agreed - there's not gonna be much in it... P4P is never straight forward to agree on... I saw a top 10 p4p list without Cotto on it the other day... Not sure I agree with that... Equally, lets not forget that RJJ remained as P4P number 1 for dominating opponents, even though the quality of those opponents was considered inferior to some of those that others below him on the P4P list were beating... if you know what i mean

Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote:Tyszu had fought 3 rounds in 2 and a half years. He had suffered countless injurys that hampered his training during this excile. He was 35 (correct me if Im wrong). He had just impressively ko'd a B Class Mitchell - Tyson and Trinidad looked impressive on their comebacks ko'ing B Class opponents before not quite been able to handle an A Class opponent for 12 rounds.

Factors Tyszu hadn't shown in years - ability to fight for 12 rounds, ability to fight at a fast pace, ability to beat the top contenders - Mitchell wasn't because most had him losing to Ndou.

None of these factors would indicate Tyszu was in his prime, he wasn't shot to pieces by any means but in his prime and at his best for a 12round fight at 2am in a hostile Manchester? I would say NO

I understand the point that Tszyu wasn't the best prepared for doing 12 hard rounds with Hatton, but was he ever? And who would have been?

Tszyu was always, essentially, a twice a year fighter. To say otherwise is a fallacy. When you're only fighting once every six months and you have one of the hardest pound for pound punches in the world, you're hardly going to get many rounds under your belt. But that had never affected Tszyu before, so there’s no reason to think it would against Hatton.

I can understand you bringing Tszyu's injury situation to bear on the argument, but surely if they were going to affect him, it was going to be in coming straight into a championship fight against the Ring's number 1 ranked 140lb-er after 18 months or so out of action. But he didn't show even the slightest sign of ring rust in that fight. What was impressive was not so much his punch power, but his timing, range-finding and punch-picking, all of which were utterly immaculate in that fight.

After the Mitchell triumph he went, reputation enhanced, straight into the Hatton fight after his usual six month lay-off.

I believe that given Tszyu's natural frequency of fighting, and a performance against Mitchell which indicated no ill effects due to injury or lay-off-time, it's almost impossible to say he wasn't the fighter he was. You either say that he was always a good technician with great power but never a great fighter, or you say he was a great fighter and a great fighter when he fought Hatton.

If Tszyu had a weakness, it was against fighters who smothered his work while maintaining a high workrate. He was beaten by Phillips in this manner, made to look poor against Leija, who did the same, and then beaten by Hatton.

I contend that Tszyu was an all time great who simply had, like most greats, a weakness against one style. Few would have been able to cope with the intensity of Hatton’s performance that night, and even fewer with his extreme physicality. But it was even worse for Tszyu, who had always had difficulty against this style, and it was this combination that led to his defeat – not a drop in his own level.

It's also worth nothing that Hatton took a real clattering in there that night, those huge right hands he took, would have done for most other 140 lbers that night, but Hatton just took them and kept on rumbling forward.

jamesmcdonnell wrote:It's also worth nothing that Hatton took a real clattering in there that night, those huge right hands he took, would have done for most other 140 lbers that night, but Hatton just took them and kept on rumbling forward.

Another good point that people forget. Hatton took a couple of bombs that night but kept the pressure on.

It's not as if Tszyu just stood there and took his beating. Hatton could just take what Judah and the rest couldn't, while dishing out a constant stream of punishment that finally broke the man down.

Tszyu, I seem to remember, was scanned after the fight and showed he had suffered from not one but two instances of bleeding on/bruising of the brain.

I think too many people are more ready to make up reasons as to why Hatton was able to win, rather than simply saying, 'because he's a damn good fighter'.

Castillo, however, was definitely near-shot.

Carbo wrote:

Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote:Tyszu had fought 3 rounds in 2 and a half years. He had suffered countless injurys that hampered his training during this excile. He was 35 (correct me if Im wrong). He had just impressively ko'd a B Class Mitchell - Tyson and Trinidad looked impressive on their comebacks ko'ing B Class opponents before not quite been able to handle an A Class opponent for 12 rounds.

Factors Tyszu hadn't shown in years - ability to fight for 12 rounds, ability to fight at a fast pace, ability to beat the top contenders - Mitchell wasn't because most had him losing to Ndou.

None of these factors would indicate Tyszu was in his prime, he wasn't shot to pieces by any means but in his prime and at his best for a 12round fight at 2am in a hostile Manchester? I would say NO

I understand the point that Tszyu wasn't the best prepared for doing 12 hard rounds with Hatton, but was he ever? And who would have been?

Tszyu was always, essentially, a twice a year fighter. To say otherwise is a fallacy. When you're only fighting once every six months and you have one of the hardest pound for pound punches in the world, you're hardly going to get many rounds under your belt. But that had never affected Tszyu before, so there’s no reason to think it would against Hatton.

I can understand you bringing Tszyu's injury situation to bear on the argument, but surely if they were going to affect him, it was going to be in coming straight into a championship fight against the Ring's number 1 ranked 140lb-er after 18 months or so out of action. But he didn't show even the slightest sign of ring rust in that fight. What was impressive was not so much his punch power, but his timing, range-finding and punch-picking, all of which were utterly immaculate in that fight.

After the Mitchell triumph he went, reputation enhanced, straight into the Hatton fight after his usual six month lay-off.

I believe that given Tszyu's natural frequency of fighting, and a performance against Mitchell which indicated no ill effects due to injury or lay-off-time, it's almost impossible to say he wasn't the fighter he was. You either say that he was always a good technician with great power but never a great fighter, or you say he was a great fighter and a great fighter when he fought Hatton.

If Tszyu had a weakness, it was against fighters who smothered his work while maintaining a high workrate. He was beaten by Phillips in this manner, made to look poor against Leija, who did the same, and then beaten by Hatton.

I contend that Tszyu was an all time great who simply had, like most greats, a weakness against one style. Few would have been able to cope with the intensity of Hatton’s performance that night, and even fewer with his extreme physicality. But it was even worse for Tszyu, who had always had difficulty against this style, and it was this combination that led to his defeat – not a drop in his own level.

Maybe any version of Tyszu would have lost to Hatton. As we age we lose stamina and speed first before anything else. Maybe Tyszu lost too much of both or maybe Hatton would always be superior in these 2 areas.

Tyszu did claim months down the line that his left shoulder injury prevented him from throwing left hooks and uppercuts inside. Was this just an excuse? Maybe but we know he needed operations for injurys

As for Shamba Mitchell he showed against Ndou, Tyszu, Mayweather, Paul Williams he is not a top tier fighter, at least not anymore. If he was before is debateable with his lightweight losses. Basing Tyszus prime on this fight is a stretch. Tyszu looked fantastic against a once slick fighter who stupidly decided to stand in front of him and paid for it.

In my opinion Tyszu was past his best but not shot. This doesn't mean it wasn't a great performance by Hatton and have to take my hat off to him. He needs to fight a prime great fighter now though like Mayweather or Cotto

Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote:

Carbo wrote:

Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote:Tyszu had fought 3 rounds in 2 and a half years. He had suffered countless injurys that hampered his training during this excile. He was 35 (correct me if Im wrong). He had just impressively ko'd a B Class Mitchell - Tyson and Trinidad looked impressive on their comebacks ko'ing B Class opponents before not quite been able to handle an A Class opponent for 12 rounds.

Factors Tyszu hadn't shown in years - ability to fight for 12 rounds, ability to fight at a fast pace, ability to beat the top contenders - Mitchell wasn't because most had him losing to Ndou.

None of these factors would indicate Tyszu was in his prime, he wasn't shot to pieces by any means but in his prime and at his best for a 12round fight at 2am in a hostile Manchester? I would say NO

I understand the point that Tszyu wasn't the best prepared for doing 12 hard rounds with Hatton, but was he ever? And who would have been?

Tszyu was always, essentially, a twice a year fighter. To say otherwise is a fallacy. When you're only fighting once every six months and you have one of the hardest pound for pound punches in the world, you're hardly going to get many rounds under your belt. But that had never affected Tszyu before, so there’s no reason to think it would against Hatton.

I can understand you bringing Tszyu's injury situation to bear on the argument, but surely if they were going to affect him, it was going to be in coming straight into a championship fight against the Ring's number 1 ranked 140lb-er after 18 months or so out of action. But he didn't show even the slightest sign of ring rust in that fight. What was impressive was not so much his punch power, but his timing, range-finding and punch-picking, all of which were utterly immaculate in that fight.

After the Mitchell triumph he went, reputation enhanced, straight into the Hatton fight after his usual six month lay-off.

I believe that given Tszyu's natural frequency of fighting, and a performance against Mitchell which indicated no ill effects due to injury or lay-off-time, it's almost impossible to say he wasn't the fighter he was. You either say that he was always a good technician with great power but never a great fighter, or you say he was a great fighter and a great fighter when he fought Hatton.

If Tszyu had a weakness, it was against fighters who smothered his work while maintaining a high workrate. He was beaten by Phillips in this manner, made to look poor against Leija, who did the same, and then beaten by Hatton.

I contend that Tszyu was an all time great who simply had, like most greats, a weakness against one style. Few would have been able to cope with the intensity of Hatton’s performance that night, and even fewer with his extreme physicality. But it was even worse for Tszyu, who had always had difficulty against this style, and it was this combination that led to his defeat – not a drop in his own level.

Maybe any version of Tyszu would have lost to Hatton. As we age we lose stamina and speed first before anything else. Maybe Tyszu lost too much of both or maybe Hatton would always be superior in these 2 areas.

Tyszu did claim months down the line that his left shoulder injury prevented him from throwing left hooks and uppercuts inside. Was this just an excuse? Maybe but we know he needed operations for injurys

As for Shamba Mitchell he showed against Ndou, Tyszu, Mayweather, Paul Williams he is not a top tier fighter, at least not anymore. If he was before is debateable with his lightweight losses. Basing Tyszus prime on this fight is a stretch. Tyszu looked fantastic against a once slick fighter who stupidly decided to stand in front of him and paid for it.

In my opinion Tyszu was past his best but not shot. This doesn't mean it wasn't a great performance by Hatton and have to take my hat off to him. He needs to fight a prime great fighter now though like Mayweather or Cotto

After Mitchell was bombed out by Tszyu he obviously lost it. But let's not pretend he was anything other than the test people wanted to place on Tszyu.

Mitchell hadn't lost a fight in ages and ages, and whatever you say, his fight against N'Dou was very close, and he was under par because he thought he was going to face Tszyu, only to find Kostya was injured and he'd have to take a stand in. It was a fight, in many ways, similar to Hatton -- Collazo in its closeness.

Apart from that, he hadn't lost in a good while and was widely considered to be the best fighter in the division after Tszyu. Now, after waiting an age to get his big chance, and then being blown out emphatically, his career went on the slide. And of course, he was thrown in against the best pound for pound fighter in the world, and then, at the fag end of his career against big hitting, hungy Williams. But that shouldn't cloud anyones vision as to what his position was pre-Tszyu.

Anyway, maybe Tszyu had lost some stamina, but there's no proof, because until he faces a rempaging Hatton, it didn't once look the case, and we have no point of reference post Hatton.

Therefore you can say he was at his peak with as much certainty as you can say he was past it.

I personally think Tszyu would have dealt with any of the other 140 lbers out there at the time. Witter claimed he would have stopped him inside 6, but I don't think even Junior believed that. Kostya had uncanncy accuracy in his punching, and though he wasn't fast, his timing was excellent, look at how he threaded that punch onto Judah's chin and detonated a bomb, despite the fact Judah was dashing around the ring at high speed.

Hatton started fast, forced Tszyu to fight on the inside, then took the bombs when Tszyu started finding his range, and continued the onslaught despite the fire coming back.

good post Carbo.

Captain Hook wrote:We're talking best p4p out of the two, and that's Ricky....

No question.

Calzaghe is a better boxer, but it's on achievement that you get to the top of the p4p list, and by beating other pound for pounders, Tszyu and Castillo for example.

Lacy was never in the p4p top 10, neither was Eubank, Reid, and no chance for Ashira!!

Disagree, its a mix of all things. If its achievment only, how high do you have Evander H? Hasnt Barrera achieved much much more than Ricky?

Also, If you compare Rickys opponents over the years, they aint that much better than Calzaghes. What up and coming predicted superstar has Ricky beaten along the way. And lets be fair, thats what many saw Lacy as.

I meant by current achievement, most recent fights, calibre of opponents etc, otherwise Tommy Hearns would be in the top 5 :)

Lacy was overhyped, that can't be said of Castillo or Tszyu, Hatton has beat legitimate guys or champs in two weight divisions (even though they were B-rate they were still champs)......

Calzaghe has looked good beating up on domestic rivals, crap like Ashira, or slightly worn fighters like Mitchell and Brewer....or a hyped Lacy, whose biggest name was Reid, who Calzaghe beat almost 8 years previously

That said I am a fan of Joe, not just because I'm Welsh....He has so much talent and I hope he gets 2/3 big fights to create the legacy he deserves

Captain Hook wrote:Lacy was overhyped, that can't be said of Castillo or Tszyu, Hatton has beat legitimate guys or champs in two weight divisions (even though they were B-rate they were still champs)......

Calzaghe has looked good beating up on domestic rivals, crap like Ashira, or slightly worn fighters like Mitchell and Brewer....or a hyped Lacy, whose biggest name was Reid, who Calzaghe beat almost 8 years previously

"Lacy was Overhyped" - easy to say after the event, isnt it. Couldnt the same be said towards Tszyu and Castillo "They were past it" - easy to say after the event, but how many said it before?

Hatton looked crap beating Urango & Collazo. He was also shoddy against Maussa. Infact. of those 3 opponents I'll bet 95% of people on this board had only seen Maussa fight Harris and Cotto. Urango and Collazo had hardly registred on anyones radar.

So, to turn it around, Hatton has looked good beating shot past it fighters. He hasnt even beaten his domestic rival(s).

As for the two-weight class issue. Unhealthy obsession at the moment with jumping weights. Joe will be (hopefuly) the greatest SMW champion of all time. Hatton challenged the worst WW champion and made a right hash of it.

As mentioned previously, I actualy DO think Hatton is just edging it on legacy, buit I think Joe is the better fighter.

Someone made a good point further down. RJJ was p4p number 1, but people lower down the list were beating better opposition.

Hatton for me, because Calzaghe's never ever going to let us find out, and at 35 he's wasted his best chance to

I wasn't one of the ones who fell for Lacy after a couple of wins, and I don't believe a fighter is "past it" because he gets beaten by a better young fighter.

Tszyu put up a good fight that night, Lacy didn't, he didn't win a round.

Wales wrote:

Captain Hook wrote:We're talking best p4p out of the two, and that's Ricky....

No question.

Calzaghe is a better boxer, but it's on achievement that you get to the top of the p4p list, and by beating other pound for pounders, Tszyu and Castillo for example.

Lacy was never in the p4p top 10, neither was Eubank, Reid, and no chance for Ashira!!

Disagree, its a mix of all things. If its achievment only, how high do you have Evander H? Hasnt Barrera achieved much much more than Ricky?

Also, If you compare Rickys opponents over the years, they aint that much better than Calzaghes. What up and coming predicted superstar has Ricky beaten along the way. And lets be fair, thats what many saw Lacy as.

Well, current form must be taken into account obviously, that goes without saying.

I don't see Collazo as being such a bad opponent, either. First, Collazo won is title, stepping in at short notice, against a man who soon after won the WBA belt at 154.

Second, Collazo was a style-matchup nightmare for Hatton. He was bigger and just as strong as Ricky, taking away one of his main weapons. Not only that, but Collazo was a skillful fighter, used to roughing it with far bigger men than Hatton, and a southpaw, a style against which Hatton's always struggled.

Third, Hatton was stepping up in weight with only 6 weeks notice after being slated to fight Lascano

Yet despite almost everything that could go against him going against him, Hatton still eeked out the victory.

Of course, Collazo is no world-beater, but he's no journeyman, either, and I don't prescribe to the theory that his convinving defeat to Mosley makes him sub-par. Not many at welter could cope with the resurgent Mosley right now.

Mind, the closeness of the fight serves Team Hatton right for fornicating around with opponents, cynically milking the American debut and eventually being forced into a corner with Collazo. If they'd paid the dosh and closed the deal, they needent have taken the risk.

Can we have another poll to decide if Loynesy should have said 'facile' or 'futile'?

It's a very hard one to call, I think Joe has shown more versatility through his career but against a lower level of opposition as many have already pointed out.

Hatton's best 2 wins probably trump both of Joe's, Hatton is younger and has also operated outside of his own weight division.

But were they the same weight I think Calzaghe would give Hatton all the trouble he could handle.

Would probably be a very good fight actually!

jamesmcdonnell wrote:I personally think Tszyu would have dealt with any of the other 140 lbers out there at the time. Witter claimed he would have stopped him inside 6, but I don't think even Junior believed that. Kostya had uncanncy accuracy in his punching, and though he wasn't fast, his timing was excellent, look at how he threaded that punch onto Judah's chin and detonated a bomb, despite the fact Judah was dashing around the ring at high speed.

Hatton started fast, forced Tszyu to fight on the inside, then took the bombs when Tszyu started finding his range, and continued the onslaught despite the fire coming back.

tszyu would have countered junior's head in the air style all night.

he could come out of retirement and beat him now.

Such wise words Hitman...