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Posted: 07 Aug 2007, 14:09
by stujones
Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote:
Tyszu, Castillo and Phillips had all seen better days themsevles.
In terms of a prime elite level operator Mayweather is Hattons first like Barrera was Hameds first.
I don't think you can really compare Tszyu and Johnston, Vasquez and Soto.
1) Soto hadn't seen better days, just was never any good.
2) Even though Tszyu might have been in some quarters an aging fighter... He hadn't shown it. In recent fights leading up to the Hamed one Tom Johnston and Wilfredo Vasquez (especially Vasquez) were VERY lucky to call themselves champions. Alot of journo's thought the average Jose Badillo beat Johnston and I think everyone thought Rios beat Vasquez (I didn't even think Vasquez won a round).
Castillo in some ways could be considered at a similar stage to Barrera when Hamed fought him... This is what the Boxing experts though. 1) Both fighters moving up 2) Both been in a recent all time war 3) Many experts thought they had left something behind after the war.
Posted: 07 Aug 2007, 14:17
by Autobarn
stujones wrote:Autobarn wrote:It's hard to say Barrera was exposed by Junior Jones. Lost a couple of fights, came back a better fighter...He just faced a guy who had his number. Got absolutely hammered, nearly won the rematch (only stopped from being gun shy understandably after fight 1) and then obviously went on to beat some tremendous fighters as he had done before.
I don't think Hatton was exposed by Collazo. It was poorly planned vs a style that gave him fits in the Magee fight (southpaw counter puncher with flat feet). He still won it.
Sure Hatton can fight more than one way. A guy like Castillo, who's slow but well schooled, is pretty much stuck with what he was vs a slick type. Hatton's way faster on his feet, has the speed and balance that lets him come in at different angles. If he doesn't do this, it's because Mayweather has lulled him. Mayweather can't lull everyone into fighting his fight.
What I meant by Barrera being exposed was that viewpoint of many boxing experts before the Hamed fight (certainly before the first Morales fight).... Remember he was hyped as the successor to Julio Cesar Chavez butafter Junior Jones he was hyped as "okay, not that good".... A bit like Lacy is now. Naturally he showed after that he was truly a great fighter and a worthy successor to Julio Cesar Chavez. It is my belief that had Barrera not fought Junior Jones he would have started that Hamed fight as the favourite.
As for Hatton being exposed vs Collazo... I think you answered the question he cannot fight "flat footed, southpaw" counter punchers.... So yes, Collazo futher exposed this.
As for Hatton fighting more than one style, I cannot read the evidence that he can. I was merely meaning it in the context of this "Barrera vs Hamed" comparison.... Do you seriously think Hatton could counter punch Floyd to a decisive decision win? No chance.
I prefer the term Achilles heel
on Barrera-Hamed, I remember Hamed being patronising about Barrera & getting all chummy with Jones. He was telling everyone, look Barrera can't avoid a right hand. Very satisfying that Barrera would hit Naz with plenty of them.
Posted: 07 Aug 2007, 14:19
by Carbo
stujones wrote:Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote:
Tyszu, Castillo and Phillips had all seen better days themsevles.
In terms of a prime elite level operator Mayweather is Hattons first like Barrera was Hameds first.
I don't think you can really compare Tszyu and Johnston, Vasquez and Soto.
1) Soto hadn't seen better days, just was never any good.
2) Even though Tszyu might have been in some quarters an aging fighter... He hadn't shown it. In recent fights leading up to the Hamed one Tom Johnston and Wilfredo Vasquez (especially Vasquez) were VERY lucky to call themselves champions. Alot of journo's thought the average Jose Badillo beat Johnston and I think everyone thought Rios beat Vasquez (I didn't even think Vasquez won a round).
Castillo in some ways could be considered at a similar stage to Barrera when Hamed fought him... This is what the Boxing experts though. 1) Both fighters moving up 2) Both been in a recent all time war 3) Many experts thought they had left something behind after the war.
Perhaps Barerra had left something behind. He certainly abandoned the style that he used to fight McKinney, Morales and Jones. It is to his credit that he had learned enough about the game and had the ability to turn himself into a diferent kind of boxer, and it was this that lengthened his career. I'm not sure if he had it in him to go toe to toe anymore, and he certainly took on some easy meat inbetween his bigger fights.
Posted: 07 Aug 2007, 17:05
by Autobarn
Yeah, Tszyu only dominated a whole weight class and knocked out most of his challengers not to mention stifle a pair of wel hyped yanks via stoppage.
He really had the long frame to go up the weight classes. If he was going to be great he needed to win titles (even if from paper champs) in divisions above him. Above all, that's just not FASHIONABLE, is it?
Posted: 07 Aug 2007, 17:15
by stujones
Carbo wrote:
Perhaps Barerra had left something behind. He certainly abandoned the style that he used to fight McKinney, Morales and Jones. It is to his credit that he had learned enough about the game and had the ability to turn himself into a diferent kind of boxer, and it was this that lengthened his career. I'm not sure if he had it in him to go toe to toe anymore, and he certainly took on some easy meat inbetween his bigger fights.
Barrera showed in the 3rd Morales that he could/can still fight that way if he wanted too... But probably thought "fecked it, I don't need too" and most of the time he was right. A bit like Gatti, the fight brought home the realisation of "why bother fight like this, I don't need to".... Don't blame him. However, I don't think he wasn't capable.
While some thought he looked "gun shy" vs Jesus Salad (post Morales, pre Hamed).... Manny Steward himself knew he was impressive.
Posted: 07 Aug 2007, 19:35
by Grilling Machine
jamesmcdonnell wrote:Yeah, Hamed really acted like a complete prick in the run up to that fight. He was so confident he didn't even bother training properly.
My outstanding memory is of Eubank's visit, when Hamed dismissed the tactics folder Chris had brought.
I would've listened.
Posted: 07 Aug 2007, 21:06
by SticknMove
Autobarn wrote:Yeah, Tszyu only dominated a whole weight class and knocked out most of his challengers not to mention stifle a pair of wel hyped yanks via stoppage.
He really had the long frame to go up the weight classes. If he was going to be great he needed to win titles (even if from paper champs) in divisions above him. Above all, that's just not FASHIONABLE, is it?
This is a feature of the modern game that I do not particularly favour. It becomes very difficult to know where these fighters stand within the frame of reference of the sport in general.
I rather have a long reigning fighter at one weight, or maybe two, that snares the big names that are available. This weight-hopping lark, in boxing, detracts from the very nature of why weight categories were created from the sports inception (especially given that nowadays there are too many versions of a title on offer).
Some fighters will always be suited to moving up through the weights and can take their skillset with them, but unless they clean out those divisions I will always treat their achievement will an element of scepticism.
Posted: 07 Aug 2007, 21:25
by SticknMove
Grilling Machine wrote:jamesmcdonnell wrote:Yeah, Hamed really acted like a complete prick in the run up to that fight. He was so confident he didn't even bother training properly.
My outstanding memory is of Eubank's visit, when Hamed dismissed the tactics folder Chris had brought.
I would've listened.
I think it was Chris' carefully considered phlosophical poetic delivery of something that he probably just became acquainted with that led to a hushed silence and rather succinct reply from Nas 'Chris, you do talk a lot of shit', that may well suggest that Naz was not in tune with the Bard of Brighton.
