BoxRec

granberry wrote:

Robinson wrote:Oh they did exist.

I just can't envison them winning.

Kym

Kym,

I can tell from your post on this boxing (?) site that you are an "expert" on boxing.

Draw on your you VAST knowledge of the subject to tell us more about Jack Dillon, Philadelphia Jack O'Brien, George Carpentier, Tommy Loughran, Jack Delaney, Kid Norfolk.

LOL

hey grangle....it's called an opinion. We all got 'em, we all are invited to express 'em...they are varied and sometimes controversial, and they are welcomed be they well studied and highly supportable such as ....hmm barry's....for instance. And others who are more of the "shot in the dark style" such as..........uh hmm never mind....some folks we shall leave un named for the moment.

Hey, did you ever get around to forming an opinion on that ol' Terrell-Ali affair? Just curious, I knew you were mulling it over and wondered if you'd come up with a thought. I'm in no hurry but am interested in what you have to say on the subject...take your time, just whenever you can get around to it.

Granberry

Im sorry we disagree, but I just dont see those old timers you listed beating the rangey Foster, with his sharp and short left hook and capable boxing style.

Carpentier seems like a brave and interesting character, but of the footage I have seen of him in his fights and of him training, he doesn't seem to have the speed and sophistication to beat Foster. He was great for his time. And will always be a legend no doubt. What does he have over Foster other than a charming smile.

Obrien, was a awesome guy for his era though he essentially was a 160-165lb fighter. Foster would tower over him and would have a long jab in his face all night long. MOst guys from Obriens era would struggle against a boxer-puncher especially a guy who can stick and move well. Whether the Burns fight was fake or not, Burns who at his peak was barely heavier than Foster managed to handle and out strength Obrien in there match up. What tools doe she have that would beat Foster ?

Loughran, who had some great wins and was a true all time great, also looked old fashioned in the late 1920s. His low guard, high chin, single punches and weighted down back foot made for a great counter puncher at the start of the 20th century. Braddock was barely out of the LHW when the pair met in a classic match. Against Foster, he would try to time the long range shots only to be dealing with a man who could throw crisp inside shots and who could use his footwoork well. Apart from great courage what does Lougran have to beat Foster ?

Delaney, like most LHW at the time chased after the HW crown, which when you are only outweighed by 10 or so pounds isn't that an elusive dream. Pawed his jab with little sting, threw his left hook just with the shoulder and no pivot. He did have a good cross which he was able to land well. Is this enough to close Fosters eyes ? He moved alot and could back up well especially in an era of flat footed stalking. What tools does he have that would defeat Foster?

Kid Norfolk, I have not seen any footage of Norfolk, and have only read articles and blotches here and there on him. What film have you seen ?
From what I can ascertain, he sounds like a old fashion Dwight Qawi. But this is just going from his build, wieghts and style description.

These are just my opinions. Im not a historian, nor am I an encyclopedia.

Im just a fan of the sport.

Whats your credentials ?

Kym

Jack Dillon, From what I have read is that he was a compact brawling machine, a smaller Dempsey. A guy who never quit and always went for the kill. Sure Foster who likes to crouch and neglect his height is susceptible to this, but would Dillon be able to maul and brawl after he meets a short cute left hook that stopped Tiger and many others so well ?

Toney would have found a way to win, maybe by KO......

The only way Toney would beat Foster is by bodysplash. Who did Toney ever beat that is in Bob Foster's league, especially at LHW?

There are several fighters who on a given night could beat Foster, but very few that you would want to bet on.
The only guys that would I would consider betting on against Foster would be the absolute best of the lightheavyweights: Langford,Tunney,Charles,Moore, and Michael Spinks.

However, I do want to address some comments Robinson made concerning some other top lightheavyweights,:
Tommy Loughran was a master boxer. He had a lot more than courage going for him. He beat heavyweights who hit harder than Foster. I'm not saying I would pick Loughran, but he wouldn't be an easy fight for any lightheavyweight.
Loughran didn't just throw "single punches": he threw great combinations.
The Loughran-Braddock fight wasn't a "classic matchup". Loughran won this fight very easily.

It wasn't disadvantage for Loughran not to have his hands up all the time. If a fighter has great reflexes and knows what he is doing it's actually smart for him not to hold them up high. Tunney, Ali, and Jones to name a few did this and were very difficult to hit during their primes.

The 1920's was a great era for lightheavweights, Loughran beat several and beat several top heavyweights.
You seem have severe bias against fighters against who fought long ago. There are plenty of flaws that you can point out in recent fighters, even the best ones.

Concerning the comment (when talking about Delaney) "Like most HVW, at the time chased after the HW crown, which when you are outweighed by 10 or more pounds isn't that elusive of a dream;
Oh really? Guess what, no lightheavyweight champion moved up to win the the heavyweight title until 1985. Then Spinks won the heavyweight title, Moorer won the heavyweight title, Jones won the heavyweight title.

O'Brien,Delaney,Norfolk, Carpentier were all great fighters who would be competitve against almost any lightheavyweight in any era.

There were great,good,average, below average, and poor fighters in every era. Some times a given era will be strong in one weight class and weak in another, however, overall the individual eras are pretty close.

Robinson wrote:Granberry

Im sorry we disagree, but I just dont see those old timers you listed beating the rangey Foster, with his sharp and short left hook and capable boxing style.

Carpentier seems like a brave and interesting character, but of the footage I have seen of him in his fights and of him training, he doesn't seem to have the speed and sophistication to beat Foster. He was great for his time. And will always be a legend no doubt. What does he have over Foster other than a charming smile.

Obrien, was a awesome guy for his era though he essentially was a 160-165lb fighter. Foster would tower over him and would have a long jab in his face all night long. MOst guys from Obriens era would struggle against a boxer-puncher especially a guy who can stick and move well. Whether the Burns fight was fake or not, Burns who at his peak was barely heavier than Foster managed to handle and out strength Obrien in there match up. What tools doe she have that would beat Foster ?

Loughran, who had some great wins and was a true all time great, also looked old fashioned in the late 1920s. His low guard, high chin, single punches and weighted down back foot made for a great counter puncher at the start of the 20th century. Braddock was barely out of the LHW when the pair met in a classic match. Against Foster, he would try to time the long range shots only to be dealing with a man who could throw crisp inside shots and who could use his footwoork well. Apart from great courage what does Lougran have to beat Foster ?

You are honestly going to say Foster had better footwork than Loughran? Loughran had some of the finest footwork in all of boxing. Beautiful to watch.

BoxBuzz wrote:

granberry wrote:

Robinson wrote:Oh they did exist.

I just can't envison them winning.

Kym

Kym,

I can tell from your post on this boxing (?) site that you are an "expert" on boxing.

Draw on your you VAST knowledge of the subject to tell us more about Jack Dillon, Philadelphia Jack O'Brien, George Carpentier, Tommy Loughran, Jack Delaney, Kid Norfolk.

LOL

hey grangle....it's called an opinion. We all got 'em, we all are invited to express 'em...they are varied and sometimes controversial, and they are welcomed be they well studied and highly supportable such as ....hmm barry's....for instance. And others who are more of the "shot in the dark style" such as..........uh hmm never mind....some folks we shall leave un named for the moment.

Hey, did you ever get around to forming an opinion on that ol' Terrell-Ali affair? Just curious, I knew you were mulling it over and wondered if you'd come up with a thought. I'm in no hurry but am interested in what you have to say on the subject...take your time, just whenever you can get around to it.

Buzz, you are in error.

It is not an "opinion."

It is a blowing out of gas,

by someone who doesn't have CLUE who these people are.

Robinson wrote:Jack Dillon, From what I have read is that he was a compact brawling machine, a smaller Dempsey. A guy who never quit and always went for the kill. Sure Foster who likes to crouch and neglect his height is susceptible to this, but would Dillon be able to maul and brawl after he meets a short cute left hook that stopped Tiger and many others so well ?

Dillon was never knocked out in his entire career.

Dillon beat a lot of heavyweights, including Frank Moran when Moran had just fought champion Willard to a no decision.

Foster lost to every half way decent heavyweight he ever got in the ring with.

Robinson wrote:

Loughran, who had some great wins and was a true all time great, also looked old fashioned in the late 1920s. His low guard, high chin, single punches and weighted down back foot made for a great counter puncher at the start of the 20th century. Braddock was barely out of the LHW when the pair met in a classic match.
Kym

You are incompetent, Kym.

Braddock fought Loughran for the lightheavyweight title.

I have the film of the fight. All fifteen rounds.

(I have had it for years).

By the way, your hero Ali held his hands down at his waist. LOL
But that was just fine when he did it, huh?

I bet Braddock and a lot of other fighters who were beaten by Loughran wished he did have a "weighted down back foot."

LOL

Kym, your "qualifications" are that you don't have a clue what boxing is all about.

You are "winging it," and making an ass out of yourself.

Doug Jones DID beat Foster.

His chin was so good Foster couldn't beat him, even though Foster landed in the early rounds.

Clay couldn't hurt Doug Jones TWO FIGHTS before Clay was supposedly able to beat Liston.

Clay was a head taller than Doug Jones and outweighed Jones by 25 pounds, yet Clay was the one in constant danger as Jones staggered him with a right hand 15 seconds into the first round and hurt Clay several other times, while the much bigger Clay's punches had no effect on Jones.

granberry wrote:Doug Jones DID beat Foster.

His chin was so good Foster couldn't beat him, even though Foster landed in the early rounds.

.

Granted, that was over the light heavyweight limit.

I also had the chance to watch for the first time Foster's fight against Terrell, he also picked him apart... Ernie was at the top of his game, sharp and surprisingly fast for his weight. Except for the first couple of rounds Foster never had a chance.

Broncano wrote:

granberry wrote:Doug Jones DID beat Foster.

His chin was so good Foster couldn't beat him, even though Foster landed in the early rounds.

.

Granted, that was over the light heavyweight limit.

I also had the chance to watch for the first time Foster's fight against Terrell, he also picked him apart... Ernie was at the top of his game, sharp and surprisingly fast for his weight. Except for the first couple of rounds Foster never had a chance.

Terrell was a 6'6" tall heavyweight.

The fact that Foster fought Terrell showed that Foster had no manager on his side. As was continually true of fighters from Washington DC (Holly Mims, Adrian Davis are other examples).

I always regarded it as a fluke that Foster, with his incompetent managers, managed to get a title shot.

Foster was too scrawny to fight real heavyweights.

He couldn't take body punches from heavyweights.

And as a heavyweight he was just a good puncher,

not a great puncher as he was fighting 175 pounders.

Foster was a freak as a lightheavyweight because of his height.

Terrell just leaned his weight on Foster and Foster was completely out of gas in a few rounds. Ali did the same thing.

Meanwhile Frazier, who could punch, almost killed Foster with two left hooks in a two round KO.

Foster's best fight was his three round KO of Eddie Cotton, a top level fighter who I thought was impossible to KO.

granberry wrote:
Foster's best fight was his three round KO of Eddie Cotton, a top level fighter who I thought was impossible to KO.

A couple of years ago in Peru I spoke to a man by the name of Otto Salas. He must be 90 years old now and he has seen everything (and everyone) that has taken place in Peruvian rings since the 1920s. He told me that from all the foreign fighters who had visited Peru (which includes names like Loughran, Gavilan and Joe Louis (exhibitions), Charley Burley, Artie Towne, Bob Foster, etc..) his favorite by far was Eddie Cotton.
As an avid reader of boxing literature in those pre-television days he said he finally understood what American boxing scribes meant by the term "sweet science" when he saw Cotton in action.

Broncano wrote:

granberry wrote:
Foster's best fight was his three round KO of Eddie Cotton, a top level fighter who I thought was impossible to KO.

A couple of years ago in Peru I spoke to a man by the name of Otto Salas. He must be 90 years old now and he has seen everything (and everyone) that has taken place in Peruvian rings since the 1920s. He told me that from all the foreign fighters who had visited Peru (which includes names like Loughran, Gavilan and Joe Louis (exhibitions), Charley Burley, Artie Towne, Bob Foster, etc..) his favorite by far was Eddie Cotton.
As an avid reader of boxing literature in those pre-television days he said he finally understood what American boxing scribes meant by the term "sweet science" when he saw Cotton in action.

Thanks for the comment from Otto Salas.

Eddie Cotton beat Jose Torres thouroughly for the light heavyweight title.

The decision in that fight for Torres was the worst I have ever seen, other than the Jimmy Young-Ali "decision."

Cotton broke Torres in half with body punches, which was supposed to be Torres' specialty.

Harold Johnson told me that when he saw Cotton for the first time, at the weigh-in for their bout, he knew Cotton was a good fighter because Cotton's face was unmarked.

By the way, I wonder if a film of that fight is available.

I just looked up Johnson's record on cyberboxing, and the description of Johnson there by Tracy Callis is disgusting in its ignorance of how good Johnson actually was, and its repetition of of tired, sour media talking points spouted by those who were for some reason antagonistic to Johnson.

Dick Tiger also hurt Jose Torres with body shots. Maybe he saw the Cotton fight?

Harold Johnson may well have had the best physique I have ever seen on a 175lbs fighter.

KOJOE90 wrote:Dick Tiger also hurt Jose Torres with body shots. Maybe he saw the Cotton fight?

Harold Johnson may well have had the best physique I have ever seen on a 175lbs fighter.

Johnson told me he did lift weights.

His physique made a problem for him through his career. Many women went crazy over his muscles.

As Mauro Mina, another who could beat Bob Foster was Jose Carattoli (who KO'ed Guillermo Silva, Isidoro Gastañaga, Pedro Mancieri, Víctor Avendaño [first Latin American Olympic Champion], Vicente Olivieri, Alberto Icochea, and outpointed Tommy Loughran); with his famous left hand, Carattoli could knocked out Foster

granberry wrote:


Harold Johnson told me that when he saw Cotton for the first time, at the weigh-in for their bout, he knew Cotton was a good fighter because Cotton's face was unmarked.

By the way, I wonder if a film of that fight is available.

I haven't seen it on any trader lists. The Machen, Marty Marshall, Doug Jones, Ezzard Charles and Pastrano bouts are available however.
Soon enough it might start making the rounds, thanks to the internet and digital media, films that leak out are making their way faster into collectors hands these days.

Broncano wrote:

granberry wrote:


Harold Johnson told me that when he saw Cotton for the first time, at the weigh-in for their bout, he knew Cotton was a good fighter because Cotton's face was unmarked.

By the way, I wonder if a film of that fight is available.

I haven't seen it on any trader lists. The Machen, Marty Marshall, Doug Jones, Ezzard Charles and Pastrano bouts are available however.
Soon enough it might start making the rounds, thanks to the internet and digital media, films that leak out are making their way faster into collectors hands these days.

I have the first Harold Johnson-Bob Satterfield fight. (only the first six rounds).

Very clear film.

Satterfield was a very different fighter at that (earlier) point in time.

He was very slick, moved around a lot from the waist as he stood in one place, similar to Archie Moore.

Broncano wrote:

granberry wrote:


Harold Johnson told me that when he saw Cotton for the first time, at the weigh-in for their bout, he knew Cotton was a good fighter because Cotton's face was unmarked.

By the way, I wonder if a film of that fight is available.

I haven't seen it on any trader lists. The Machen, Marty Marshall, Doug Jones, Ezzard Charles and Pastrano bouts are available however.
Soon enough it might start making the rounds, thanks to the internet and digital media, films that leak out are making their way faster into collectors hands these days.

Broncano,

Tell me when you get a film of the Harold Johnson-Mauro Mina fight.

That would be something to see.

You probably mean Cotton-Mina, correct?

As you may know, Johnson was to fight #1 Mina on June of 63. Mina's handlers had to pull him out because in March they discovered he had a dettached retina.

Harry Greb would give Foster a real nightmare of a fight I would imagine.

dr_devious wrote:The only way Toney would beat Foster is by bodysplash. Who did Toney ever beat that is in Bob Foster's league, especially at LHW?

What has this to do with it, If Toney never fought at LH and skipped to cruiser I still would give him a chance. We are talking peaks and I would go so far as to say that Toney from the Barkley night would beat Foster...

Beating Iran Barkley is one thing, beating Bob Foster is quite different.

How would the Toney who lost to Griffin and somehow got the decision against Tiberi do against Foster?