BoxRec

Decagon wrote:Duran shouldn't have won the Barkley fight.

I didn't give a fornicate the first time you said that and I still don't..

theone wrote:

Duran over Barkley

I think this win a tad overrated actually. Probably due to Duran's popularity and the emotional aspect of him winning another title.

In fact almost every big win a fighter had over Duran is underrated.
whether its the Hearns fight, the second Leonard fight, and especially the Benitez's fight, People would argue that Duran must have been either out of shape, past his prime, sick, or somehow unmotivated for the fight or else things would have been different.

People look at Duran with such rose colored glasses that he is constantly given credit for his loss to Hagler as though it were a win!

I agree that Leonard, Hearns and Benitez should get credit for their wins, but I hardly agree that the Barkley win is overrated. Duran was a Lightweight fighting at Middleweight, Barkley was a Middleweight who ended his career at Heavyweight. And Duran was 37 years old. I actually thought Barkley deserved the decision, but Duran's performance was outstanding considering the size and age difference, and considering that Barkley fought such an excellent fight.

Duran's fight with Hagler is a big acheivment for Duran. Hagler is one of the two or three greatest Middleweights of all time, yet Duran who was, again, a former Lightweight champion, was the first challenger to Hagler's title to go the distance, and he fought a close, competitive fight with Hagler. Not sure how many Lightweight champions could have pulled that off.

I Feel Fine wrote:

theone wrote:

Duran over Barkley

I think this win a tad overrated actually. Probably due to Duran's popularity and the emotional aspect of him winning another title.

In fact almost every big win a fighter had over Duran is underrated.
whether its the Hearns fight, the second Leonard fight, and especially the Benitez's fight, People would argue that Duran must have been either out of shape, past his prime, sick, or somehow unmotivated for the fight or else things would have been different.

People look at Duran with such rose colored glasses that he is constantly given credit for his loss to Hagler as though it were a win!

I agree that Leonard, Hearns and Benitez should get credit for their wins, but I hardly agree that the Barkley win is overrated. Duran was a Lightweight fighting at Middleweight, Barkley was a Middleweight who ended his career at Heavyweight. And Duran was 37 years old. I actually thought Barkley deserved the decision, but Duran's performance was outstanding considering the size and age difference, and considering that Barkley fought such an excellent fight.

Duran's fight with Hagler is a big acheivment for Duran. Hagler is one of the two or three greatest Middleweights of all time, yet Duran who was, again, a former Lightweight champion, was the first challenger to Hagler's title to go the distance, and he fought a close, competitive fight with Hagler. Not sure how many Lightweight champions could have pulled that off.

Agree with this post

Decagon wrote:

Victor*KC wrote:

Decagon wrote:Duran shouldn't have won the Barkley fight.

I didn't give a eff the first time you said that and I still don't..

Find me six rounds that Duran won.

I'd be glad to when I have free time..I personally had it a draw but Durans KD made the difference in a close fight..

Duran's fight with Hagler is a big acheivment for Duran. Hagler is one of the two or three greatest Middleweights of all time, yet Duran who was, again, a former Lightweight champion,

Oh yeah thanks! thats one excuse i forgot, Duran was a natural lightweight his whole career so any loss above that weight shouldn't count.

theone wrote:

Duran's fight with Hagler is a big acheivment for Duran. Hagler is one of the two or three greatest Middleweights of all time, yet Duran who was, again, a former Lightweight champion,

Oh yeah thanks! thats one excuse i forgot, Duran was a natural lightweight his whole career so any loss above that weight shouldn't count.

That's nonsense. He was in his fifth weight class. Name another Lightweight that goes 15 with Hagler....

It wasn't Hagler-Leonard close, but it was closer than most of Hagler's defenses. The judges scorecards were too close, though, I think they actually had it even going into the 14th or 15th.

I was thinking more along the lines of Lightweight champions, but yeah, Robinson would go the distance with Hagler. I don't really agree with the others, though I guess Armstrong would have a chance. I think Hagler is one step too far for Whitaker, and I think Hagler is all wrong for Napoles, Napoles was stopped a couple of times on facial damage and cuts, and a few of Hagler's defenses ended on Hagler busting up his opponents faces. Of course, I haven't seen enough of Benny Leonard, I only recently saw real footage of him for the first time.

Being in his prime is irrelevant, Duran wasn't in his prime when he fought Hagler. Napoles was stopped on cuts by freaking Billy Backus, and was cut badly in the opening seconds of the rematch. I don't know that he was in his prime, but he wasn't shot either. It was only a year after he beat Cokes and Griffith. Point is, Napoles lost three championship fights, two on cuts and one against an all time great Middleweight who was too big and strong for him. Hagler was an all time great Middleweight, and had a track record of stopping title challengers on facial damage. If he doesn't stop him one way, he might stop him the other way.

I'm aware of Armstrong being durable but he didn't fight someone like Hagler either. Zivic stopped him in the rematch. Even if Armstrong made it the distance; its him, Duran and Robinson... that's rather select company among former Lightweights.

Decagon wrote:

I Feel Fine wrote:Name another Lightweight that goes 15 with Hagler....

Sugar Ray Robinson, Benny Leonard, Henry Armstrong, Pernell Whitaker, Jose Napoles.

Pernell Whitaker struggled at Light-Middleweight from what I remember do you think he would cope with Hagler for 12/15 rounds?

I have my doubts. Pernell Whitaker was a special fighter but sometimes size does matter.

Pernell Whitaker struggled at Light-Middleweight from what I remember do you think he would cope with Hagler for 12/15 rounds?

Whitaker had two of his last three fights at the weight when he was absolutely finished as a top fighter.
His only other Jr middle fight was an easy title winning effort against the very tough Julio Cesar Vasquez.

torodecayey wrote:Calzaghe over Jeff Lacy

How the hell is this underrated?? Lacy is shit. He had no names on his record going into the JC fight and all he did during the fight was walk forwards in a straight line and throw haymakers.

If anything, this win is OVERrated.

Again, my point was really in reference to Lightweight champions and not really Lightweights in general, but yes, I'm sure some former Lightweights could go the distance with Hagler. That neither means they will be as competitive as Duran was, nor does it negate what Duran did in going the distance with Hagler, when none of Hagler's naturally bigger title challengers were able to, besides Leonard. And besides possibly Armstrong, I don't see other Lightweight champions going the distance with Hagler. Duran is one of the two greatest Lightweights of all time, Hagler is one of the two or three greatest Middleweights of all time, I think it speaks to Duran's abilities as a great pound for pound fighter that he was able to have the fight that he did with Hagler.

Decagon wrote:Jim Henry debuted at lightweight, and he went the distance with Hagler in 1977. Then it would be Armstrong, Duran, Robinson and some clubfighter with a losing record.

Duran debuted at Bantamweight. So all of the examples still leave him alone in that reguard.

Hagler was intimidated facing Duran in his first big fight. I love Duran, but he was winded fairly early in the fight and Hagler probably would have stopped him if he pressed at his normal pace.

I had it 10-5. Though the 12th round was one of Hagler's worst rounds ever.

He didn't go 15 rounds with him.

I am more impressed by the Basrkley fight then I am the Hagler fight. Duran/hagler was fairly boring and a lot of people just use the judges pro duran cards after 12 to make points for them.

Duran certainly was competitive for 12 rounds. But he was behind and if Marvin pressed like he did in the last 3 it would have been a very long night.

At his best, Duran was the best damn fighter I have ever seen.

Decagon wrote:Bah. The Barkley fight. The Hagler fight. Meaningless! It's what he did at 135 that made him truly great.

Absolutely. People are talking about him fighting at Middleweight.

The Leonard fight was his greatest performance imo. If not it would be Dejesus 3.

I don't think anyone is claiming that Duran is a great fighter because of his fights with Hagler and Barkley. He's a great fighter for what he did as Lightweight champion.... his fights at Middleweight only enhance his legacy in that you don't expect him to be able to compete that high in weight, and because he was not in his prime when he was at that weight. I think he was around 33 when he fought Hagler, and he was 37 when he fought Barkley. And I agree with mark that Duran probably won no more than 5 rounds, but compared to Hagler's other bigger, younger challengers that's really not bad... Leonard being the exception.

He clearly lost to Hagler. The Barkley fight could have went either way.

Should I rank Ali lower because I think he "lost" to Jones,Young,Norton & Shavers?

Decagon wrote:I thought he very clearly lost to both Hagler and Barkley, and I don't rank fighters based on losses.

I don't recall asking for your approval. He clearly lost to Hagler and I thought he lost to Barkley. There are certain losses that I would say can enhance a fighter.

markl wrote:Should I rank Ali lower because I think he "lost" to Jones,Young,Norton & Shavers?

Watch the Jones fight again with the sound off. I agree with the others, except for Norton II.

I have seen thousands upon thousands of fights. I don't score based on sound. I scored it for Jones. Very close fight, not calling it a robbery. just making a point.

I had Norton/Ali 2 a very easy to score Draw. 1st 6 for Ali and the second 6 for Kenny.

Kirkland Laing -v- Roberto Duran.

Decagon wrote:

markl wrote:I have seen thousands upon thousands of fights. I don't score based on sound. I scored it for Jones. Very close fight, not calling it a robbery. just making a point.

I had Norton/Ali 2 a very easy to score Draw. 1st 6 for Ali and the second 6 for Kenny.

My scorecard:

Round----Norton----Ali-----
1------------9--------10-----
2------------9--------10-----
3------------9--------10-----
4------------10-------9------
5------------10-------9------
6------------9--------10-----
7------------10-------9------
8------------9--------10-----
9------------9--------9------
10-----------10-------10----
11-----------10-------9-----
12-----------9--------10----
------------------------------
Total------113------115----

Well, If there was a point deduction in the 9th round. I have no credability whatsoever. I haven't watched it in years. But I will tonight.

Decagon wrote:I think that should've been a 10-9.

I am going to rewatch it anyway.

The most underrated win must be Leotis Martin -v- Sonny Liston.

That was a tremendous performance from Martin to KO Liston.

It's the only time Liston was ever truly KO'd.

It's a victory that is massively underrated IMO.

I think Syntax has posted 2 really good examples of underrated wins.

Laing gets dismissed a lot. His win is often brought up by people criticising Duran but when Laing put it altogether his talent and ability was really something.

He could be undone by a KO puncher (like Jones) but Duran didn't really posess this above 135.

The fact that nobody really credits Martin with a good win shows just how underrated it is. Liston may have been past his best but he was still formidable.

Decagon wrote:I thought he very clearly lost to both Hagler and Barkley, and I don't rank fighters based on losses.

From TIME magazine.

Not So Wonderful Marvelous
Monday, Nov. 21, 1983 By TOM CALLAHAN
The winner loses some aura, the loser wins some respect

In his gentlemanly fight last week with Roberto Duran, undisputed Middleweight Champion of the World Marvin Hagler was both an evident winner and an obvious loser, perversely confirming the curious viewpoint of the Las Vegas judge who scored six of the 15 rounds for nobody. The fight was not as close as the scores indicated (on two of three cards, Duran could have taken the decision in the last round), but it was close enough to reprieve Duran as a personification of shame and to reduce Hagler as a figure of terror.

Before the battle, per that charming custom, past champions trooped through the ring, showing their beautifully squashed old faces. Beau Jack, Kid Gavilan, Jake LaMotta, Gene Fullmer, Carmen Basilic, Carlos Monzon. The last four are former middleweights, who must wonder about the state of the 160-lb. division.

Now Duran, of course, was a lightweight in his prime, and as champion for nearly seven years he batted out 135-lb. contenders with a feral joy. But by 1979 the little Panamanian monster had eaten his way up to the welterweights (147), none of whom fell apart when he hit them, least of all Sugar Ray Leonard. Pulling something unknowable out of himself, Duran defeated Leonard in 1980, but leaving it there five months later, he quit against Leonard in disgrace. "No más" became the most notorious phrase in any language. Roberto lost two subsequent fights, but then knocked out former Welterweight Champion Pipino Cuevas to get a chance at Davey Moore's junior middleweight title. When he stopped Moore in June, Duran had come back virtually to Leonard, actually to Hagler.

Leonard's retirement last year was prompted by a detached retina he suffered in training, but dread of Hagler was thought to be at least a secondary consideration. A Hagler sampler: "Don't play with them, bust them up." No one could blame Hagler for the shortage of competition leading up to and during his three championship years, but the fact remained that Duran, such as he was, represented Hagler's first eminent opponent and premium payday (possibly $10 million apiece). For a change, people feared for Duran's safety. Recalling "No más," even Hagler supposed, "He could be wanting to stand up and take a beating now," a theory that faded a few days before the fight when Duran eyed Hagler and pronounced, "Two days, no more champion." Smiling uncomfortably, Hagler said, "I thought the man couldn't speak English."

The first round was more a prologue to a fight than a fight. Giving away three years (32 to 29), 1 lb. (156½ to 157½), 2 in. in height (5 ft. 7½ in. to 5 ft. 9½ in.) and 8 in. in reach, Duran clearly meant to box Hagler, who began timidly. "I was a little tight," the champion said. "I tried not to give him too much respect. But he was very clever." Dipping and dodging, Duran forced him to miss, and counterpunched through the second and third rounds. But the fourth was better for Hagler, and come the fifth he began bringing Duran to his toes with uppercuts inside. Other than lightly noting Duran's familiar low blows, Greek Referee Stanley Christodoulou stayed out of it.

In the the sixth, switching leads left and right, sucker-punching at every crossover, Hagler celebrated the biggest round of the fight. Duran did not answer at all until the ninth, and not too loudly then, but the eleventh, twelfth and 13th were Duran's as Hagler's trickling left eye bubbled over and nearly closed. The Panamanians who had cursed Duran in 1980 were waving small flags and cheering, not in one voice but in pockets of song scattered about the 15,200-seat stadium outside Caesars Palace. The closed-circuit and cable audience was estimated to be 2.5 million.

Some time in the middle rounds, Duran's right hand began to ache, and anyway, Duran did well to keep his manos de piedras up to defend himself in the last two rounds. "Hagler had just this much better conditioning," he told his manager, Luis Spada, honestly. "Next time," Roberto pledged. The fighter was in good shape, but he will try for better. There should be no outcry for another one of these, but Duran will fight again, and again, because he is Duran.

Hagler is less secure in what he does, strangely so. "Come on, you've got to give it to me," he implored. The champion who had petitioned a court so that he might be called Marvelous asked for acceptance and almost for forgiveness. "Duran laid back, counterpunching," he said. "He's a three-time champion, a very gutsy warrior. I couldn't go in there and get foolish."

Marvelous Marvin Hagler possesses many of the virtues of the old fighters and even comes from an old fighter's town, Brockton, Mass., Rocky Marciano's town. He works out like an old fighter, hard and lonely, on the sand dunes at Provincetown. But when Hagler referred to his sore eye at the last, saying, "I didn't expect to come out pretty anyway," it was the first time he seemed at all like the old champions who had preceded him into the ring. —By Tom Callahan