BoxRec

This thread is an all time classic example of the clueless and their system of knowledge and "logic" on the topic.

Jack Dempsey and Gene Tunney seeing the fight as it took place sitting at ringside don't know what they are looking at.

But buzz and ifeelfine, who between them never had a fight with their own sister, know what happened.

That is rich.

The rationalizations and "logic" of the clueless on display in all its glory.

I Feel Fine wrote:Being a great fighter doesn't necessarily mean that you know how to score a fight. They were obviously influenced by the Garden crowd, which cheered wildly whenever Jones, the home town native New York fighter, would land even a jab. There was one instance where Clay landed four flush jabs and a right hand... Jones responded with only a glancing jab, and yet the crowd went nuts cheering for Jones; people who don't know how to score a fight might be influenced by that, especially when they don't like Ali. Jones really did not come close to winning the fight, Clay consistently out punched him throughout the fight, Jones did not throw or land enough punches, and Clay even stunned him a few times, contrary to your claims that Jones was never hurt in the fight. Jones didn't come close, and did not even approach winning 6 rounds. Giving him 4 rounds would be a bit generous. No competent official could give Jones the decision. He was the hometown fighter, an underdog who had the crowd support and did better than people expected against a fighter who people loved to boo, not much else.

You clearly don't know boxing if you don't think Liston was trying to win the first fight. I don't think fighters who throw fights throw and land bombs the way Liston did on Clay, work as hard as Liston did, and certainly don't try to blind their opponent and then pounce them in a last ditch effort to win the fight. It wasn't even that big a blowout, Liston did much better in the fight than some people give him credit for, he was much better than Tyson was against Douglas for example, or Baer against Braddock. Again, you're a moron, you don't know boxing or boxing history, you've probably never even seen these fights.

I agree with you on the Jones bout. Several days after the bout, they played it on TV and they turned off the sound, so you could score the bout yourself without hearing the MSG crowd.

Everyone in the studio had it for Clay (Ali). Just a few years ago, I gave the tape of the bout to some well known boxing Judges and they all had Clay (Ali) winning. If I added up all the scores and average score was 7-3.

I know most of the boxing judges in New Jersey, New York, Pennsylvania and Connecticut and not one of them that I gave the tape to had Jones winning.

.. granberry is wrong once again...i brought this up a long time ago, but hereit is again....boxbuzz did have a fight with his sister and she beat the crap out of him...

hhascup wrote:

I Feel Fine wrote:Being a great fighter doesn't necessarily mean that you know how to score a fight. They were obviously influenced by the Garden crowd, which cheered wildly whenever Jones, the home town native New York fighter, would land even a jab. There was one instance where Clay landed four flush jabs and a right hand... Jones responded with only a glancing jab, and yet the crowd went nuts cheering for Jones; people who don't know how to score a fight might be influenced by that, especially when they don't like Ali. Jones really did not come close to winning the fight, Clay consistently out punched him throughout the fight, Jones did not throw or land enough punches, and Clay even stunned him a few times, contrary to your claims that Jones was never hurt in the fight. Jones didn't come close, and did not even approach winning 6 rounds. Giving him 4 rounds would be a bit generous. No competent official could give Jones the decision. He was the hometown fighter, an underdog who had the crowd support and did better than people expected against a fighter who people loved to boo, not much else.

You clearly don't know boxing if you don't think Liston was trying to win the first fight. I don't think fighters who throw fights throw and land bombs the way Liston did on Clay, work as hard as Liston did, and certainly don't try to blind their opponent and then pounce them in a last ditch effort to win the fight. It wasn't even that big a blowout, Liston did much better in the fight than some people give him credit for, he was much better than Tyson was against Douglas for example, or Baer against Braddock. Again, you're a moron, you don't know boxing or boxing history, you've probably never even seen these fights.

I agree with you on the Jones bout. Several days after the bout, they played it on TV and they turned off the sound, so you could score the bout yourself without hearing the MSG crowd.

Everyone in the studio had it for Clay (Ali). Just a few years ago, I gave the tape of the bout to some well known boxing Judges and they all had Clay (Ali) winning. If I added up all the scores and average score was 7-3.

I know most of the boxing judges in New Jersey, New York, Pennsylvania and Connecticut and not one of them that I gave the tape to had Jones winning.

Tsk, what would real live judges know compared to Granberry.

Lol

granberry wrote:This thread is an all time classic example of the clueless and their system of knowledge and "logic" on the topic.

Jack Dempsey and Gene Tunney seeing the fight as it took place sitting at ringside don't know what they are looking at.

But buzz and ifeelfine, who between them never had a fight with their own sister, know what happened.

That is rich.

The rationalizations and "logic" of the clueless on display in all its glory.

By that logic I should suspend all judgement and automatically agree with George Foreman when he says that Trinidad will rally and stop Hopkins. Afterall, he's George Foreman, who am I to disagree...?

You're an idiot, dingleberry.

Fighters, when their being honest, are the best experts in my mind; but in truth, I've seen alot of ATG champions be completely biased against other men...Archie Moore, great fighter that he was, told alot of whoppers in his time too.

Kinda like how Larry Holmes for years and years said Tyson would beat Lewis, and really it was all based on Holmes' fight with Tyson; Holmes being all snobbish with the attitude 'If I couldnt beat him, who could?'

Or how Foreman stated that Lennox Lewis was greater than Muhammad Ali, but when Foreman was supposed to come back at age 55, someone asked him whether he would fight the 'real' champion in Lewis, Foreman said "Lennox needs to retire, he's too old!"

Hypocritical.

If you remember Tunney never fought a black man EVER, not even as an amateur, and not even in training....so wouldn't surprise me Tunney would feel that way against Ali, he has bigot written all over his forehead.

As far as Dempsey goes, he had fought black men early on in his career, and even sparred and trained with black men, had exhibitions against them; despite never fighting Harry Wills, it doesn't seem to me that Dempsey was overly racist....

I think alot of it had to do with Ali being such a showman, making his predictions, acting crazy like a professional wrestler would and before him, NOBODY ever, ever did things like that. It made Ali a sort of villian in the eyes of his peers, contemporaries, etc and when he didn't make good on taking Jones out....he was booed unmercifully...he was hated all the more.

What people seem to forget is, Muhammad Ali, even before the 'draft dodging' and becoming 'Cassius X' and then later 'Muhammad Ali', was hated tremendously in the early-mid 1960's...there would be boos and catcalls of anger and rage when the other guy couldn't stop the "loudmouthed person from Louisville," and it was all because he took the advice of 'Gorgeous George' and he was black and most of all...he was good, he was DAMNED good.

BoxBuzz wrote:I disagree, I think granberry indeed knows very much about boxing, so much so I look forward to his contributions. However I think his quirks just completely obfiscate his ability to maintain rational balance when certain topics are mentioned.

Put a quarter in, mention topics A, B, or C and he becomes a one man entertainment megaplex of eclectic truth mixed with eccentric opinionated blathering.

But when those topics are not the issue....he reveals some pretty straight forward quality facts and insight. Some of which I have followed up and found to be substantiated by other sources that I highly respect.

So though sometimes it's a crapshoot, his offerings have been some of the more interesting stuff to arrive at this boxing portal over the past few years.

true ...granberry like decagon are ggrrreeaaatttt!!!

granberry wrote:

I Feel Fine wrote:You're a retard.

I actually saw Ali vs. Jones again the other week... not even in the vicinity of a controversial decision. No competent boxing scorer could score the fight for Jones. You don't know boxing.

Jack Dempsey (introduced in the ring before the Madison Square Garden fight)

said Jones won and the decision was a joke.

Gene Tunney (introduced in the ring before the Madison Square Garden fight)

said Jones won and the decision was a joke.

Harold Johnson said, "Doug Jones beat Clay."

But what do they know about boxing

compared the vast knowledge of ifeellikeafairy.

LOL

Jones beat the sh*t out of Clay

TWO FIGHTS before Clay was supposedly able to beat Liston.

I have seen that fight too. Jones was like the curate's egg, excellent in parts. A few fights after that he lost to Ernie Terrell in a challenge for Terrell's WBA Heavyweight title. And we all know what Ali did to Terrell.

Brute wrote:

granberry wrote:

I Feel Fine wrote:You're a retard.

I actually saw Ali vs. Jones again the other week... not even in the vicinity of a controversial decision. No competent boxing scorer could score the fight for Jones. You don't know boxing.

Jack Dempsey (introduced in the ring before the Madison Square Garden fight)

said Jones won and the decision was a joke.

Gene Tunney (introduced in the ring before the Madison Square Garden fight)

said Jones won and the decision was a joke.

Harold Johnson said, "Doug Jones beat Clay."

But what do they know about boxing

compared the vast knowledge of ifeellikeafairy.

LOL

Jones beat the sh*t out of Clay

TWO FIGHTS before Clay was supposedly able to beat Liston.

I have seen that fight too. Jones was like the curate's egg, excellent in parts. A few fights after that he lost to Ernie Terrell in a challenge for Terrell's WBA Heavyweight title. And we all know what Ali did to Terrell.

Not all of us know....

BoxBuzz wrote:

Brute wrote:

granberry wrote: Jack Dempsey (introduced in the ring before the Madison Square Garden fight)

said Jones won and the decision was a joke.

Gene Tunney (introduced in the ring before the Madison Square Garden fight)

said Jones won and the decision was a joke.

Harold Johnson said, "Doug Jones beat Clay."

But what do they know about boxing

compared the vast knowledge of ifeellikeafairy.

LOL

Jones beat the sh*t out of Clay

TWO FIGHTS before Clay was supposedly able to beat Liston.

I have seen that fight too. Jones was like the curate's egg, excellent in parts. A few fights after that he lost to Ernie Terrell in a challenge for Terrell's WBA Heavyweight title. And we all know what Ali did to Terrell.

Not all of us know....

Ali played with Terrell for 15 rounds like a cat with a mouse. He had the shits with Terrell for insisting on calling him Clay and for what Ali considered stealing from him by taking the WBA title. The only reason Terrell went the distance was because Ali wanted to punish him. He had plenty of opportunities to KO Terrell but chose not to. It was a brutal hiding.

The problem with the preceding post is that granberry will swear you are my understudy. My point was that I'm not sure granberry can bring himself to watch this fight as I have asked for his feedback on this matter many many times. Your connecting the dots will serve only to infuriate the man further.

Chuvalo also beat Jones, which set Chuvalo up for his "Fight of the Year" with Patterson. Frazier also beat him in later years.

Even if Jones hadn't lost to these guys, and there had been a rematch... what does Ali at 24-25 do to him... look at the improvement of Ali from the first Cooper fight to the second; he doesn't get hit with half as many punches, he doesn't get knocked down, he doesn't play quite as much, he even imposes his size a couple of times to keep Cooper under control... I thought Clay won the 63 Jones fight clearly, but Ali the champion would have embarassed Jones...

Same with Foster. Cranberry goes on and on about how Jones beat Foster... Foster had nine pro fights, and according to boxrec he was a substitute...

For me the guys most likely to beat Ali are (no particular):

Louis
Walcott
Dempsey
Johnson
Holmes
Holyfield
Frazier


Ali did say once that he believed Tunney to be a great fighter who used similar startegies to himself in the ring. Or somethign to that effect...