BoxRec

Just out of curiosity, how many people from this forum are going to Witter-Harris?

Terry D wrote:Witter seems to be a cult Internet hero with fans who will shout and scream that he should take on Hatton in the UK without actually wanting to support his fights prior to a Hatton bout.

The general line of argument from guys like Max and Chambers is that Witter-Hatton in the UK will sell yet Witter's 'net fans will not dig deep and support Witter's three UK based title fights so far. They just assume that 80,000 will turn out for Hatton-Witter. Maybe this will be the case but with 75,000 for Hatton and 5,000 for Witter the purse split would be a slap in the face for Witter, and his stay at home fans.

Witter-Harris is a very good bout yet some of the louder Witter fans are saving their money for Hatton-Mayweather, a bout that takes place abroad.

With fans like that no wonder you don't sell out venues.

I'm not having a pop, it just seems that the many Witter fans want the world to be brought to their fighter on a silver platter.

I must admit I don't go to much live boxing, the view is better on the settee, it's less hassle to get to the settee, its cheaper from the settee and I can smoke pot on the settee. Plus if its a choice of playing poker and shagging whores at the MGM in Las Vegas or shagging a fat bird from Donny in a Travel Inn???????

Whether my agrophobic tendencies mean that I shouldn't be bandying Witters corner is another debate, I just see Hattons 5 year avoidance of his arch-rival as being an injustice to British boxing and its fans. I now accept that if the fight was going to happen it would have already done so, so I'll STFU..........til I get the next urge

I'm sure Junior would be willing to take abit of a slap in the face with regards to the purses. Junior offered to fight Hatton for £150k a while ago and there was still no interest from the Hattons, which is what makes me think that the lack of wonga for Hatton was an excuse.

Hattons been an excellent ambassador for British boxing, but for me his refusal to fight Witter is a BIG blemish on his career

You're talking about 150k like it's peanuts!

That's a lot of tickets or a lot of TV money you're talking there. If Witter took 150k, then you got to figure Hatton is getting four times as much, that is hardly peanuts is it?

It's relative though, isn't it James? Hatton was getting £705,000 to fight Vilches for the WBU title. In contrast, Witter's biggest payday to date was, I believe £62,000, for the Morua WBC title fight.

I believe Collazo got $500,000 to fight Hatton, so shelling out £150,000 to Junior isn't such a massive deal. Still, it's all irrelevant, because the fight is never going to happen.

Terry D wrote:Witter seems to be a cult Internet hero with fans who will shout and scream that he should take on Hatton in the UK without actually wanting to support his fights prior to a Hatton bout.

The general line of argument from guys like Max and Chambers is that Witter-Hatton in the UK will sell yet Witter's 'net fans will not dig deep and support Witter's three UK based title fights so far. They just assume that 80,000 will turn out for Hatton-Witter. Maybe this will be the case but with 75,000 for Hatton and 5,000 for Witter the purse split would be a slap in the face for Witter, and his stay at home fans.

Witter-Harris is a very good bout yet some of the louder Witter fans are saving their money for Hatton-Mayweather, a bout that takes place abroad.

With fans like that no wonder you don't sell out venues.

I'm not having a pop, it just seems that the many Witter fans want the world to be brought to their fighter on a silver platter.

As a Witter fan I don't expect this fight to be made if Hatton can get the likes of Mayweather, Cotto, Delahoya and Mosley. But if he can't and he might not be able too if he loses and looks bad doing so, its surely the next biggest fight out there?

Why does Hatton-Witter have to sell more tickets than Collazo/Maussa who also weren't draws? It probably will be a bigger draw than both because its a better fight and a real danger man. Dangerous 50-50 fights do sell even if the lesser name is somewhat of an unknown - see Mayweather-Delahoya or Benn-Eubank 1

I wanted to goto Witter-Harris but won't be able to make it unfortunately as its a bit of a treck to Donny and would be going by myself. I will turn Sky Sports just for this fight and bought Hatton-Urango for the Witter fight. So does that mean I haven't got the right to critisize if the big fights I want to see aren't made? I don't care I will anyway

I don't think this fight will happen in any circumstances anyway

In fairness to Junior he has a massive 50-50 fight on Friday and that should be the focus. The Harris fight is a big 1 even if it isn't money wise. After that there are more biggish fights like Malignaggi, Casamoya, Diaz, Torres, Rees. Ironically if Hatton goes to 147 it could open a few doors for Junior.

BTW Torres got an absolute home town stoppage against Holt who was winning the fight easily. It appears the judges had also been paid off as they had it to Torres despite Holt dominating.

jamesmcdonnell wrote:You're talking about 150k like it's peanuts!

That's a lot of tickets or a lot of TV money you're talking there. If Witter took 150k, then you got to figure Hatton is getting four times as much, that is hardly peanuts is it?

I understand that 150k is a good payday and is not peanuts, but the UK would have been clambering all over a Hatton-Witter fight, the fight would put about 30000 bums on seats at the City stadium or at least would have packed the MEN arena out. I'd be interested to know what the likes of Tackie and Oliveira were getting payed (50-100K??). I don't know alot about the financials of staging a fight, but surely Hatton-Witter could have raised enough to make it feasible.

boxingchat wrote:The theory is okay but the reality is altogether different. The financial differences of operating in a large venue as oppose to a leisure centre sized venue are quite significant to both the promoter and the TV company. Costs go through the roof in comparison. The majority of fighters in the UK don't sell enough tickets to cover their own purse demands let alone their opponents so a big venue is risky without a sound and reliable fan base.

Hennessy won the purse bids to get Witter home advantage. No-one in the US would touch Witter and TV don't have any interest in him at all due to his boring style and his previous performances on both HBO and Showtime. The lack of US interest in Witter gives Hatton the excuse he needs to avoid fighting him. It's a vicious circle.

If Hennessy were to stage it in the States the costs and logistics alone would be horrendous. He's done the right thing by Witter no-doubt, but probably cost himself in the meantime.

Anyway, why can't Wellington back me up on this, he's the one who would know.

Now, don't get me wrong I can see and agree with what your saying. Its all very nice of Mick, but my point was is that this is a business - if Witter isn't paying (even with the WBC) and he is running shows at a loss - then why stick by him.

Okay, I can see a point of speculating to accumulate and doing a gamble (Paul Boyce did this with Scott Gammer vs Mark Krence).... However, Witter has now been a champion for 12 months and still cannot sell a ticket for toffee - when is it time to cut his losses?

Its all very admirable, and I don't want to sound like a prick - but surely its time to say business is business its time to let him go.

I didn't mean for Hennessey to win the purse bids and to stage the show in the states, but for Hennessey not to compete for the purse bids. I said at the time that it would have been better in the long term if Witter vs Harris was in the states.

James, yes Junior fought Ndou in the states - but it got very little TV coverage (and what they showed wasn't too flattering for Junior - none of the KD's were shown).

stujones wrote: Now, don't get me wrong I can see and agree with what your saying. Its all very nice of Mick, but my point was is that this is a business - if Witter isn't paying (even with the WBC) and he is running shows at a loss - then why stick by him.

The answer is so obvious, Hennessy is desperately hanging onto the hope Witter will finally get his finger out of his backside by exciting the fans and also then entice Hatton into the ring.

It would not surprise me there was some sort of wish either Witter continuing to hold onto the WBC belt or possibly even Hatton losing a fight would bring the two fighters together into the ring.

Mick has then probably hoped if the first wish happened the second one would be he could be part of a joint promotion where by some significant money could be made.

But Hennessy being a good promoter must have a decent plan b, that has to be Witter being part of a big fight elsewhere perhaps in the states or something like that, but I do not see how that makes Hennessy money unless he promoted the show, and there has not been many brits promoting shows abroad and with the americans having such a low view of Witter I cannot see that happening.

I will tell you another fighter who costs a lot of money like Witter and does not sell many tickets, David Haye. But at least he is in a division where curiosity is going to get the better of the fans and they will eventually come to watch him, at the moment I am willing to bet he is costing his promoter an arm and a leg.

Both Hennessy (Witter) and Maloney (Haye) do to a certain degree have a little saviour with their boxers costing a tidy sum, that is the TV revenue but that is not a lot. The other maybe a decent sponsorship deal.

How do you know Witter-Harris doesn't make any money? If Sky pays in the region of £100k+ for the card and then theres 2k of supporters it will actually make money. There are other money making fights out there like Malignaggi or Diaz

Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote:How do you know Witter-Harris doesn't make any money? If Sky pays in the region of £100k+ for the card and then theres 2k of supporters it will actually make money. There are other money making fights out there like Malignaggi or Diaz

- Witters purse
- Harris's purse

Undercard fighters - 6 or 7 fights the cost mounts up at I would say a mimimum of £1200 -£1500 a piece for the journeyman plus you have the house fighter who will be on a few quid more

For the big fight

- Judges purses
- Sanctioning fees
- Referee's fees

For the whole show

- Cost of hiring Arena

- Cost of entertaining judges, Referee's and Sanctioning body night before show

- Cost of hiring ring itself
- Cost of staff to promotional company
- Ring announcer
- Whip to get fighters to the ring
- Security
- Ambulance, Doctors etc
- Cost of last minute medicals etc
- Advertising
- Under card fighters
- Hotel fees for all staff plus boxers plus trainers etc
- Flight costs for overseas fighters

All of that plus things I have forgotten soon mount up.

Revenue

Sponsors
Adverts in programmes
TV Revenue
Ticket Revenue

Hennessy I would imagine is a good negoitiator, but Witter and world title fights do not come cheap - I will be very surprised if Hennessy is making anything out of this fight.

Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote:How do you know Witter-Harris doesn't make any money? If Sky pays in the region of £100k+ for the card and then theres 2k of supporters it will actually make money. There are other money making fights out there like Malignaggi or Diaz

And just to answer you last point - if Witter fights Malinaggi in New York, unless Henessy gets joint promotional rights he doesn't make a penny. It will be Witter who will rub his hands together in delight.

Albert wrote:

Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote:How do you know Witter-Harris doesn't make any money? If Sky pays in the region of £100k+ for the card and then theres 2k of supporters it will actually make money. There are other money making fights out there like Malignaggi or Diaz

And just to answer you last point - if Witter fights Malinaggi in New York, unless Henessy gets joint promotional rights he doesn't make a penny. It will be Witter who will rub his hands together in delight.

I'd be suprised if Henessey doesn't get a 10% negotiators cut of any Witter fights due to him being the promoter, I'd certainly have it in the contract

As for whether Henesseys making any money or not, he might not be but he might be unless we know the figures, ie TV Money, we have no idea.

Good insights from BoxingChat here - and I'm sure he'll be shaking his head in disbelief about Stu's point that Mick should get rid of a WBC champion. How much stick would he get for that? Talk about not being able to please all of the people...

BC is right about a lot of fight fans. If you don't put your hand in your pocket to some extent, whether it be via TV or live, though are content to watch via the net or whatever, there'll be less money in the pot to make the fights you want.

There are no Abramovics or Shinawatras trying to hang their hat on boxing, unlike the slew of suspected dirty money coming into football.

scrap iron wrote:I take no pleasure in saying this is the worst undercard I can remember for a genuine World title fight and I'm a Hennessy Sports fan. Some of the undercards Mick Hennessy put on in earlier years at The Alexandra Palace or Nottingham Arena were first rate. But this is poor. I sometimes think that if the headline fight is the only good fight on the bill, you'd better off stopping indoors to watch it. However I think Junior is badly neglected in this country and the fact this is the toughest opponent he has fought since Zab Judah makes travelling to Doncaster just about worth it. But only just.

what's this big hangup that everyone has travelling to Doncaster? As if parts of Nottingham and Manchester aren't as bad. And as if parts of London don't far surpass it in abject misery.


So someone thinks Hennessey shopuld drop Witter. LOL. He's their first - hopefully of numerous - world champions. As if they'd drop him. Right. I wonder what's going to come out next.


On the endless Hatton-Ducking-Witter...I can see why ppl are not 100% sold on Hatton because we had to pay PPV for a couple of very poor performances. But he's beaten Kostya Tszyu and he's impressed in America now, not to mention heading into a huge fight. Lay off.

Is anyone chiding Mayweather for "ducking Witter"? Witter was his mandatory FFS.

Half of this is down to bringing down Hatton. 2 ppl on here dislike Hatton for leaving Frank almighty. I think a lot of ppl's motivations are suspect on here. This thread is more about bringing Hatton down than any appreciation for Witter.

Witter's been denied opportunities, but when he's been given a stage he hasn't been fun to watch. To put it mildly.

Nowt wrong with Doncaster.

My job takes me to the most deprived areas of Liverpool, Manchester, Leicester, London, Newcastle, Nottingham etc.

Doncaster is no worse than any of those.

If your looking for parking, go past the dome (from the motorway), turn right at roundabout drive for about 1000 yards turn left at undertakers next to lights, follow road - about 500 yards, turn left again. Parking next to cemetary or street parking in housing estates near by. Pretty safe.

Unless the fair is on the racecourse.

DavidPayne wrote:Nowt wrong with Doncaster.

My job takes me to the most deprived areas of Liverpool, Manchester, Leicester, London, Newcastle, Nottingham etc.

Doncaster is no worse than any of those.

If your looking for parking, go past the dome (from the motorway), turn right at roundabout drive for about 1000 yards turn left at undertakers next to lights, follow road - about 500 yards, turn left again. Parking next to cemetary or street parking in housing estates near by. Pretty safe.

Unless the fair is on the racecourse.

Absolutely.

I have an uncle who lives in an awful part of London. So bad you can't go out without a cosh. He has this fixed idea of Doncaster being the filth capital of the UK. Donny is clean compared to A LOT of places.

The red light district has been cleaned up, the town centre is better, the Frenchgate extended, the interchange is way better than the old piss smelling closed down bus station & there are far fewer smackheads who stop you for money in the middle of town, ala "Excyuuws me mate, I've run out of... petrol, can I have ten bob."

Of course, there's filth-holes filled with scum, and Donny is filled with chavs, but then again most places are.

A lot of these pudenda have a fixed idea of us being Zack Dingles or something. That's 20 mins down the road...Conisbrough!

As for going to Donny for a fat bird. Only because the town centre is dead at night. Because ppl have better things to do.

I chose to go to Donny for my stag do, having lived down south for the past ten years.

It was always the best night out for birds in the pubs. The clubs were always dog-shit, but the pubs were always crammed with craddock.

And I don't mean Jody.

I've been out in most of the city centres at one time or another. And I still reckon fit birds per square foot, Donny wins hands down.

I think there's been a real change in Donny at night over the years. Nothing much happening at night. There's been a paradigm shift IMO - the fit birds are all at business conferences getting laid in swanky hotels, rather than being easy meat at the Coach & Horses.

I'll admit, it can be unpleasant. Don't want to sound un PC, but it seems you can't go to a good restaurant at night without some flash vulgar gypsies making things unpleasant.

I also don't think the immigrant communities have exactly blended in - it's hardly a melting pot, to put it mildly. I mean, I don't have to be told, "You white bastards are obsessed with dogs", when I'm taking my bull terrier for a walk at night.

So where abouts do you live?

I hear round the back of the market is basically Albanian. Romanian, Ukranian in the terraces there?

DP

I live near Bennetthorpe.

Yeah, behind the market, round Copley Rd etc it's like being in a different country - almost.

Not seen as many Kossovans about. My sister used to get freaked out at the supermarket, getting followed around the aisles. Remember all the trouble in Hexthorpe about 5 years ago? A Kossovan bloke flashed at a teenage girl. Ended up being a lot of white vs Kossovan warfare - someone got stabbed, someone else shot - and there was even a cafe down there with a "no whites" sign.

It's not acceptable to say owt about it, but Doncaster is defintely a poor example of multiculturalism. Some visitors don't even try to blend in and some long time locals either don't want to be bothered by any shit, or are just looking for conflict. Recipe for disaster, IMO.

Bennethorpe, on the way to the racecourse?

My mate Bones, lives down there.

And my Dad promoted soul do's called Boogaloo Down Bennethorpe about 15 years ago.

Still have grandma in Cantley and rest in Thorne.

So Doncaster was the big metropolis to me!

jamesmcdonnell wrote:You're talking about 150k like it's peanuts!

That's a lot of tickets or a lot of TV money you're talking there. If Witter took 150k, then you got to figure Hatton is getting four times as much, that is hardly peanuts is it?

how many would go to hatton vs witter 30 or 40 thousand people well if you sold 30.000 tickets at £50 thats £1.5million so thats the main event sorted then you get tv money+sponcers+merchandise and that will cover a top class undercard so where,s the problem i think hatton knows that if he boxed witter now and got beat he,d look a right knob he should of just done him 3 years ago

Ian 'Mr' McNeilly wrote:Good insights from BoxingChat here - and I'm sure he'll be shaking his head in disbelief about Stu's point that Mick should get rid of a WBC champion. How much stick would he get for that? Talk about not being able to please all of the people...

BC is right about a lot of fight fans. If you don't put your hand in your pocket to some extent, whether it be via TV or live, though are content to watch via the net or whatever, there'll be less money in the pot to make the fights you want.

There are no Abramovics or Shinawatras trying to hang their hat on boxing, unlike the slew of suspected dirty money coming into football.

I never said "I think Mick should get rid of Witter", indeed I commended Mick for continually sticking by a non-ticket seller... winning purse bids, paying sanctioning fees etc. It takes pleanty of belief in Witter, plenty of patience to do this... fair do's.

Do I as a fight fan want to see a WBC champion and geniune world class talent like Witter not fighting cause no promoter will touch him.... Hell no. However, would I UNDERSTAND if Mick, Warren, Maloney, FA whoever said "enough is enough" and "I cannot keep going into the red with this gamble forever its time to cut my LOSES"... Yes I would.

Believe it or not, I was a bit angered at the way Johnny Nelson's British career turned out post De Leon and Warring (pre Thompson). Even though his performances was dire - he still drew with a world champion - so he was still a world class fighter. However, I could UNDERSTAND why no promoter wouldn't touch him... They couldn't make any money from him. Now, even though Witter is winning - it seems like the same is happening here essentially.... or at least this is the reasoning given by people who know behind the scenes stuff are giving for the poor undercard. My point was while it is sad that the sport has gone this way in Britain, nobody can keep working very hard and making a big loss - even after a fair amount (in these days) of domestic coverage. When is Witter ever going to be a ticket seller? It would appear to be only when Hatton is in the opposite corner... and that looks increasingly unlikely (sadly).

Thats what I said, or at least meant to say... Not that I think Mick is wrong to "keep the faith" or that I don't applaud him for doing this. All I said is I'm not sure I could be so brave, promoting shows at a loss in the hope that it will eventually pay off (12 months into holding the big belt) and my post also had a bit of a questions as too when Mick will say "enough is enough"... I hope it is never, but surely its only so many financial losses a man can make... Surely?

I said at the time that I think Mick has done a bit of mistake by winning the bids. In the UK, all he is going to get is a Friday Fight Night slot on Sky - will have similar TV ratings (cause the non boxing public in the UK won't have heard of Harries) and probably a similar live gate (cause of the undercard being dire). For the first time in Witter life he is the betting favourite against a RESPECTED name in the states who has often got TV coverage (Ndou was heard of, but merely as a decent journeyman).

Now I get a fair few Boxing shows from the states and I have no doubt that some TV company would have got hold of this fight - if Team Harris won the bid and brought it to the USA. Whether it be an more obscure $19.99 PPV or on Comcast (even delayed) or ESPN - I think it would have been better. Believe me, some of the stuff I have recieved you would be shocked that they have any attendence let alone a nicely produced TV crew. Of course, it would have got some air time in the states - even if its regional. I am sure Sky would have covered it live on Saturday or on a weeks delay aswell. It is not out the equation that HBO would have covered it - a few Harris fights in the lead up to this title shot have been shown on the premier boxing network. With it being on a Friday, in (not disrepect) a small(ish) hall with a poor undercard and on British time - no way will US TV even air any of it.

Yes, a gamble to win abroad.... but then Mick has shown so much faith in Witter so far, I think he'd be confident of a victory wherever the fight took place.

So I hope that makes my older posts clear I never said "time to ditch Witter, Mick".

Mick signed Witter as probably most promoters would have done and I suspect probably still would. I don't slag off Hennessy for doing so. I also suspect Hennessy knew exactly what he would or would not get from signing Witter.

My own opinion is that the trail of thought was probably Witter being a Hennessy Sports fighter would make the Hennessy stable look a good deal stronger on paper when negoitiating TV deals - TV deals bring a certain amount of revenue and gets that vital foot in the door - whilst Hennessy may not make money probably a loss on Witters fights he will gain much needed exposure as a promoter - it is the other TV shows Hennessy has negoitiated on the back of Witter and Froch is probably where he will make some money.

In addition hanging onto that hope of a big fight with Hatton and an even bigger hope it would be a joint promotion was the key to signing Witter.

stujones wrote:However, Witter has now been a champion for 12 months and still cannot sell a ticket for toffee - when is it time to cut his losses?

Its all very admirable, and I don't want to sound like a prick - but surely its time to say business is business its time to let him go.

You're quite right. You never said "time to ditch Witter, Mick."

An excerpt of what you said is above.